Liverpool FC Forum

by **Wilhelmsson** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:35 pm

That’s your opinion though isn’t it? I’m all for ‘brain dead’ people posting their views, because I enjoy reading and participating in discussion with fellow and opposition fans.

I tend to get tiresome with people who always see the bright side of life and those who fail to see any bright side. That doesn’t mean to say I begrudge them having an opinion.

FWIW, I have felt some of the criticism on Rafa has been in poor taste, but for the most part, I have understood and shared some concerns people have currently.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:40 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:That’s your opinion though isn’t it? I’m all for ‘brain dead’ people posting their views, because I enjoy reading and participating in discussion with fellow and opposition fans.

I tend to get tiresome with people who always see the bright side of life and those who fail to see any bright side. That doesn’t mean to say I begrudge them having an opinion.

FWIW, I have felt some of the criticism on Rafa has been in poor taste, but for the most part, I have understood and shared some concerns people have currently.

All I'm saying is that opinions tend not to be based on fact, and are therefore a waste of time.

Some of the drivel written on here over the last month-or-so is beneath anyone with a brain.

But... If you want to read sh*t, that's your perogative.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:49 pm

If by your definition ‘opinions are a waste of time’ why do you have opinions and why do you read other opinions and express your own? Is that not in the least bit contradictory?

I will admit there have been times where I have thought, how people come up with some of the stuff they write, but ultimately that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:07 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:If by your definition ‘opinions are a waste of time’ why do you have opinions and why do you read other opinions and express your own? Is that not in the least bit contradictory?

I will admit there have been times where I have thought, how people come up with some of the stuff they write, but ultimately that is their opinion and they are entitled to it.

Just to add to my last response - yes, opinions on their own are a waste of time, as an opinion means nothing without a fact to back it up - something which a few on here seem to be blissfully unaware of.

Now - I like hearing some opinions, but, none-the-less, they don't actually hold any real value - more "interest".

by **hello_red** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:57 am

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Bored of reading panic posts from the reactionary right take a leaf out of my book and chill the :censored:

out. Granted im no expert, i dont have a fifa pro license for a start but its just a bad patch. we have got pioints from the games we have not performed in from the league. We beat everton and arsenal (good reord when arsenal visit us) and be there or there abouts again.

Show support for your local team will you please.

by **heimdall** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:25 pm

hello_red wrote:BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Bored of reading panic posts from the reactionary right take a leaf out of my book and chill the out. Granted im no expert, i dont have a fifa pro license for a start but its just a bad patch. we have got pioints from the games we have not performed in from the league. We beat everton and arsenal (good reord when arsenal visit us) and be there or there abouts again.

Show support for your local team will you please.

Stop reading then, problem solved :wwww

by **JBG** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:17 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:a little tart

Mmmmmm, a little tart, awwwwuwuwghhhhhh111111111 :hearts

by **zarababe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:46 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:
zarababe wrote:No actually if you read what I 'wrote' in my sarcasm - it is about the way people are now doubting the bosses credentials - I don't look at post counts I read what ppl wrote and wondered which forum I'd ventured on.

The opening article of this thread sets the context - we need to see what happens before we pass further judgements.

It is posts such as this one which incite sarcastic sentences. People will have different views on how the team is progressing and just because Rafa has credentials doesn’t mean to say the man is always correct and such credentials do not immune him from criticism.

Everyone has different levels of satisfaction, you might be content, but then others aren’t, there’s no need to play high and mighty IMO.

There is always room for judgements, each passing match requires judgements, and what use is it waiting until the end of the season to put things into perspective when one can achieve this throughout the season?

As I have already said, there are plenty of threads 'offering' an opinion or two on what 'is going wrong' etc etc., some of us are content with watching and seeing what happens, and yes believe the Bioss will deliver the success we want.

without reading

I seek refuge in here for now for the doom merchants prevail in too many places for now! I don't wnat to read the self righteous drivel and opinions of others on here - some balanced views some down right ****, whoc frankly don't see it like I do - bring on Paul Tompkins I say we need rationalisation of a situation being blown out of proportions.

by **zarababe** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:23 pm

Que: Paul Tompkins on .tv:

Some ex-players and fans talk about the great Liverpool sides as if they never lost a game, never conceded a goal, and never ended a season empty-handed. Against that backdrop we can never be happy for long. Even winning the league again would soon lead to 'but back then we won it three times in a row/along with the European Cup/as part of doubles and trebles/with the amazing flair of 1987/88', etc.

After all, hasn't that very thing already happened in the Champions League? According to some fans, Liverpool are now 'an embarrassment' in Europe ... after two finals in three years. Sorry, but I consider lamely falling in the early rounds of the UEFA Cup as embarrassing, not what Benítez has brought to this club.

When you look back at the facts –– looking at the varying 'failures' of the past, even during times of success –– you can see how much more Benítez has to do to be successful. If we really have to live in the past, let's visit the real version, not the one where nothing ever went wrong.

Last season, Liverpool's league record, mostly due to away results, was nothing to write home about. We all know and accept that. Unlike the year before, the Reds didn't win a hugely impressive number of games. Indeed, in 06/07, Liverpool won just 53%, or just over one out of every.

And yet in 1983/84 –– Liverpool's legendary 'treble' season –– the team won just 52% of league games! Six were lost, and 14 drawn. Could any team afford to fail to win 20 of its games and still land the title now? No. Not a cat in hell's chance.

In 1984, just as it the club did last year, Liverpool also made the European Cup Final. But it only required nine games 23 years ago; last year it took Benítez's side twice as many.

So when I hear ex-players telling us about the evils of rotation, I have to point out the radically different present-day landscape. Liverpool won the league in 1984 because they were the best team –– a great team –– and that's something Benítez has yet to do at Anfield. That's a fact. But maybe a manager didn't need to rotate if he could afford to fail to win 20 out of 42 games?

After all, the big shortcoming so far this season is the same –– not losing, but drawing too many games. Indeed, the current win-rate is pretty much identical to 1984.

It's also easy to forget how much better things are now than in the 'lean' years that also make up much of the past, and which led, over a 14-year period, to Benítez taking over a struggling side. Graeme Souness had the league win rate way down at 38-40% for three years running, while even Roy Evans' best season, when some fine football was played, peaked at 52%. In Gérard Houllier's last two seasons, the Reds won just 45% of Premiership games.

Some people find stats meaningless or distorting (and some can be), but few stats can be more meaningful and truthful in football than the percentage of games your team wins.

In 2005/06, when Benítez was criticised for never naming the same team twice, he won 66% of all games, and also 66% of league games; as I've noted before, a figure only bettered once in the landing of Liverpool's 18 league titles ( 71% in 1979). Is this spin? Of course not. It's a fact that highlights the difference between the past and the present.

Perhaps more wins in a league campaign are possible these days because of bigger squads. If that's the case, then it's about utilising that squad.

Whether Ferguson last season, and Mourinho the season before, made 118 changes (3.11 per game) to their championship-winning line-ups (the same as Benítez in 06/07) because of injuries or rotation is not really the point. The point is that the mythical ‘consistency of selection’ that all teams apparently need was simply not present.

If Rafa rotated to a greater degree, and the other two were reacting to more injuries and tiredness, then perhaps rotation spared the Liverpool manager excessive muscle-fatigue injuries?

Another fact remains that Benítez started Reina, Gerrard and Carragher in the league more last season than Ferguson managed with any United player. For whatever reason, United's line-up was changed as much as Liverpool's, and its key players missed a greater number of games. Liverpool’s problem was missing chances. This year the problem has been less prevalent, with the strikers bagging 15 goals between them, although it was a problem against Spurs. Steven Gerrard returning to goalscoring form will help.

If the league is apparently that much weaker these days, and therefore it’s easier to win games, how can a club with internationals such as Berbatov, Keane, King, Chimbonda, Bale, Lennon, Jenas, Bent, Defoe, et al, as well as 'England's no.1', be near the relegation zone? And a team at the bottom be another UEFA Cup entrant with a player as good as Anelka? Or an unfashionable club like Blackburn have strikers like Santa Cruz and Benni McCarthy? English clubs are once again regularly making European finals. Even Middlesbrough made one.

I've heard a few ex-Liverpool players claim that the same eleven played together so regularly they understood each other's games. While that is an advantage of keeping a settled side, these days the players train together for longer, with afternoon sessions as well as morning ones. Presumably the players aren't playing tiddlywinks.

And let's not forget that despite so many new players bedding in and a lot of changes from game to game, the understanding was there against Toulouse, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Sunderland and Derby County. After that, there was a loss of confidence. Or had they suddenly all had their memories wiped by the Haitian in Heroes?

(I'm desperately trying to work in a reference to Hayden Panettiere's character; her powers to regenerate might hold the key.)

Times have changed for our rivals, too. For me, it's not so much the fact that Alex Ferguson won so little of note during his first six seasons, and nothing at all in his first four, that makes me wonder how he kept his job, as the fact that he finished 11th and 14th in 1989 and 1990 respectively; his third and fourth seasons. If United fans had had their way, he would not have (damn those United directors). And in the modern day, he would have been sacked.

For further perspective, Liverpool's current squad still costs far less than United's, and less than half of Chelsea's. No previous Liverpool manager, bar Houllier in his final season, had to face a club like Chelsea that could spend Liverpool out of the water, not to mention United’s wealth. Benítez's net spend this summer, at £25m, was much lower than that of United and Spurs. We’ve seen how wise the spending has been with Torres’ success. But some of the old guard are currently not at their best.

Another stark contrast is that Benítez has still had only a quarter of the time to rebuild the club from top to bottom in the way Wenger has at Arsenal, and which Ferguson was afforded many years to do at United.

Benítez is not looking to offer the quick wham-bam-thank-you-mam that Mourinho provided Chelsea with.

Meanwhile Wenger, now doing so well with his Arsenal side, won nothing in his 3rd, 4th or 5th seasons at Arsenal. Like Benítez, he had a great early season (winning the league to Benítez's Champions League), and yet I can still recall Arsenal fans calling for his head in 2000 and 2001, saying he'd taken the club as far as he could. I remember laughing at the time.

Wenger started rebuilding Arsenal for a second time circa 2001, three years before Benítez arrived in England. And yet it's only now, with Pires, Ljungberg, Vieira and Henry gone that this rebuilt team is seen as 'new'.

This is something Benítez is still getting his teeth into, having signed some seriously talented youngsters in the last two years. But Wenger got their first on Fabregas, who was snaffled while Benítez was still at Valencia, as were van Persie, Toure, Flamini, Senderos and Clichy. All of the aforementioned signings were made between 2001 and 2004, as Wenger, laying his blueprint for Arsenal's future, sought players to fit his system.

I'm not saying Benítez will definitely achieve everything he is attempting to. There are no guarantees with any manager. But I just don't want impatient and/or short-sighted fans to end up experiencing one of life's saddest ways of looking back: regretting the one who, thanks to their lack of appreciation, got away.

by **red37** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:37 pm

zarababe wrote:I seek refuge in here for now for the doom merchants prevail in too many places for now! I don't wnat to read the self righteous drivel and opinions of others on here - some balanced views some down right ****, whoc frankly don't see it like I do - bring on Paul Tompkins I say we need rationalisation of a situation being blown out of proportions.

Been blowing for 17 years and counting...But you know, there is a better way to make your point. One that includes and embraces the inherently differing opinions of everybody, and not just those who you are dismissing as "not on your wavelength" - That sounds terribly vain.

When you concur that there is much work to be done its: "Well lets wait and see first before calling for heads to roll..." - Which is fair comment and the sensible view had it not taken so long, so many years to arrive at being able to suggest that measure of 'conformity' holds creditable water for another equally protracted barren spell. This being a club the size it was/is and its intentions.

When you decry the 'doom mongers' its: "Lets all listen to Tompkins - he's got his head screwed on" Has he really? He's good at compiling a readable account, i'll grant you that. A great deal of which meanders round the houses merely to come to the same conclusion as the rest. Only made to sound a little less 'grim'. Conscientious soul that he is. Bless.

In truth, there is a heck of a lot of pointers towards Benitez getting it right eventually, in particular the overall state the level of his squad is at, post his employment. But that day is going to be a while yet, and like i said. Already its been far too long away from the prize for this club to continue to rest upon 'safe laurels' in the hope that all will end well on that score. 'Time will not wait for no man'. Especially one that is under the close scrutiny of ambitious new owners.

Personally, for what its worth, I'm far from advocating a change in manager...what i would prefer it to be called is: a change in the direction promoted by him and the tools that he possesses, through adaptability and a willingness, to effect an improvement which benefits the use of the particular strengths he has within his squad. Because frankly, there are one or two fundamental principles that he is yet to grasp in the English League, that will continue to throw up this whole powder-keg in the first place. Until they are suitably modified to fit the cut of the cloth that is required. The issues at hand are well documented and need no further analysis here.

But the problems aren't going to vanish overnight, they still need addressing. Thats the whole purpose of having an open arena within which to do it. So long as you make your own individual stance clear. Fence sitters are going to find a world of 'pain' whichever side of it they end up falling onto their ar5es on be it by preclusion or through the sheep like choices that they usually tend to flow along with, largely due to them lacking in some area of decision making. For that reason alone, im all for people having their grievances aired. You have the chance to learn something valuable by doing so. And if nothing else, it makes for active, healthy debate. Of which there is a necessity to follow at this present time given the poor run of results the club has endured.

Roll on Saturday and let the fun begin all over again!

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:59 pm

red37 wrote:
zarababe wrote:I seek refuge in here for now for the doom merchants prevail in too many places for now! I don't wnat to read the self righteous drivel and opinions of others on here - some balanced views some down right ****, whoc frankly don't see it like I do - bring on Paul Tompkins I say we need rationalisation of a situation being blown out of proportions.

Been blowing for 17 years and counting...But you know, there is a better way to make your point. One that includes and embraces the inherently differing opinions of everybody, and not just those who you are dismissing as "not on your wavelength" - That sounds terribly vain.

When you concur that there is much work to be done its: "Well lets wait and see first before calling for heads to roll..." - Which is fair comment and the sensible view had it not taken so long, so many years to arrive at being able to suggest that measure of 'conformity' holds creditable water for another equally protracted barren spell. This being a club the size it was/is and its intentions.

When you decry the 'doom mongers' its: "Lets all listen to Tompkins - he's got his head screwed on" Has he really? He's good at compiling a readable account, i'll grant you that. A great deal of which meanders round the houses merely to come to the same conclusion as the rest. Only made to sound a little less 'grim'. Conscientious soul that he is. Bless.

In truth, there is a heck of a lot of pointers towards Benitez getting it right eventually, in particular the overall state the level of his squad is at, post his employment. But that day is going to be a while yet, and like i said. Already its been far too long away from the prize for this club to continue to rest upon 'safe laurels' in the hope that all will end well on that score. 'Time will not wait for no man'. Especially one that is under the close scrutiny of ambitious new owners.

Personally, for what its worth, I'm far from advocating a change in manager...what i would prefer it to be called is: a change in the direction promoted by him and the tools that he possesses, through adaptability and a willingness, to effect an improvement which benefits the use of the particular strengths he has within his squad. Because frankly, there are one or two fundamental principles that he is yet to grasp in the English League, that will continue to throw up this whole powder-keg in the first place. Until they are suitably modified to fit the cut of the cloth that is required. The issues at hand are well documented and need no further analysis here.

But the problems aren't going to vanish overnight, they still need addressing. Thats the whole purpose of having an open arena within which to do it. So long as you make your own individual stance clear. Fence sitters are going to find a world of 'pain' whichever side of it they end up falling onto their ar5es on be it by preclusion or through the sheep like choices that they usually tend to flow along with, largely due to them lacking in some area of decision making. For that reason alone, im all for people having their grievances aired. You have the chance to learn something valuable by doing so. And if nothing else, it makes for active, healthy debate. Of which there is a necessity to follow at this present time given the poor run of results the club has endured.

Roll on Saturday and let the fun begin all over again!

Brilliant post that Red. Nobody has the monopoly on common sense around here and though some of us can hold our hands up to the accusation of being "self-righteous", I do think some of the concerns are legitimate, and at least deserve a hearing.

The good thing as far as the club goes, and the debate for that matter, is that the squad this season is undeniably stronger than in previous years. There can nowhere to hide as the season goes on. If we challenge for the title while employing rotatioin to the extent that we currently are (even allowing for the fact that in the League we have kept a much more settled team) then those of us who don't agree with the mantra are wrong. It really is that simple.

There can be no hiding with the "ah yes but in the league we aren't actually rotating, it's only in the cups we are messing around with the team". Doesn't wash for me and you won't find me ducking the issue like that. I think the whole notion is flawed, and even if we kept the same team every week in the league but changed it like we do for every Cup game then it is the wrong thing to do in my view (this would apply of course unless we are out of all the cups by December and the league games are theonly ones we are playing of course

).

It also follows of course that if we don't challenge for the title, by varying degrees according to each persons benchmark, and allowing for extremities of extenuating circumstances then those who believe in the current levels of rotation may have to reconsider.

One of the reasons my mind is absolutely made up is that I think we have had a good enough team to challenge for the title for two seasons now. Last year I was and am just about the only person on here who thinks that the squad was up to challenging for the title. I think there were a couple of reasons why we didn't, but chief amongst them is we rotated the team far too frequently and heavily at the start of the season.

This season most people think the squad is upto a title challenge if handled properly, given an even break with luck/injuries etc. If we continue to rotate at our current rate there'll be nowhere to hide come the end of the season. My suspicio is as I've said many times however that this won't be the case. Rotating at the rate we are right now (around 5 to 6 changes per game in all competitions) is suicide, and although Rafa is stubborn he isn't a fool. The dodgy fecker will pick a settled team in ALL competitions from now on and it'll keep the argument going next season as well :;):

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:08 pm

If Zara is still around, Paul Tompkins article is long and verbose. His win stats however are absolutely meaningless of course beacause as he is no doubt aware, it was two points for a win and one point for a draw during the period of dominance for our club. This radically effected the way teams approached Away games in particular.

That's it really. I'm sorry to be so dismissive but the article is the latest in a long line of his contributions that have in my humble opinion been utter b0ll0cks.

by **hello_red** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:26 am

heimdall wrote:
hello_red wrote:BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Bored of reading panic posts from the reactionary right take a leaf out of my book and chill the out. Granted im no expert, i dont have a fifa pro license for a start but its just a bad patch. we have got pioints from the games we have not performed in from the league. We beat everton and arsenal (good reord when arsenal visit us) and be there or there abouts again.

Show support for your local team will you please.

Stop reading then, problem solved

the problem with that is i like this site and want to read it. Just dissapointed in some of the posting thats going on, all panic and no real ideas to be truthful.

I think its just a blip on the radar, the premiership is a hard thing to win due to money i fear. I know we have backing now but its all about time. We have challenged before but have not had the might in the transfer market. We unfortunatly had our wonder years before the money came into the game and have suffered as a result. I think we will be there or ther abouts this season, we will be in contention but it will be down to luck at the end of the day.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:44 am

wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

by **The_Rock** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:44 am

peewee wrote:wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

Dude....lets see how we perform against eversh1t..... I think its no point as this argument will never end. BTW i am in your anti-rotation bandwagon.....

I think rafa has finally learnt his lesson (as he has had been bashed from every angle by the press, ex-players and fans)...We should see the strongest possible team against eversh1t and the rest of the league games....

Walk on......

Eversh1t 0 - LFC 3 (Crouch, Riise and Gerrard).....

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