Liverpool FC Forum

Bad Bob wrote:To suggest he 'tinkers' is a cheap shot unworthy of the man and what he's accomplished with the club.  So, by all means, vent your spleen against particular selections or against the rotation policy in general those who must, but do us all a favour and spare us the tinkerman jibes--that kind of stuff is only going to lead us away from interesting discussion and down the road to flame wars, IMHO.

bigmick wrote:Ryan Babel must play up front very soon in a couple of games, either with or preferably without Torres alongside him.

ConnO'var wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:To suggest he 'tinkers' is a cheap shot unworthy of the man and what he's accomplished with the club.  So, by all means, vent your spleen against particular selections or against the rotation policy in general those who must, but do us all a favour and spare us the tinkerman jibes--that kind of stuff is only going to lead us away from interesting discussion and down the road to flame wars, IMHO.

By and large I tend to agree with most of the stuff you post on here bob... But to the above quote, I do take exception and disagree 100%.

Whether or not someone uses the term tinker or over-rotate is semantics imo. Not everyone bothers with the subtle nuances of the English language when they post on these boards. Their message (and mine for that matter) is that Rafa got it wrong yesterday. And not all of it was hindsight... Many a poster had expressed incredulity when the team was announced and gave their reasons why. In that, I can find nothing wrong to be honest.

To suggest that using so-called "tinkerman-jibes" leads to flame wars is inaccurate imo. The flame wars which have invaded these boards over the last few months is not down to this. The reason flame wars arise is because of intolerance of an alternate view point. At times it seems that everytime something negative or an expression of dissappointment here leads to loads of derision, insults and what have you.

What is wrong with a little constructive criticism? Since when has the name of our beloved club changed from Liverpool FC to Benitez/Alonso/Gerrard etc tec FC? No one is above criticism... as long as it is constructive....

You want to stop flame wars? I assure you, so do I....

I've no issues with the rose-tinted brigade. To many opposing fans, I appear to be very much one of them.

Perhaps it's time you look at the attitude and posting styles methodology of a few on here instead. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how an abusive, intolerant, expletive laden post NOT "lead us away from interesting discussion and down to flame wars, IMHO".

My 2 p worth at any rate.

To clarify, mate, I'm in no way saying that you, me or anyone on here can't or shouldn't criticize Rafa.  I have no problem with those who feel that he got the team selection wrong (whether it was expressed before, during, or after the match) nor do I have a problem with those who feel that his rotation policy as a whole is suspect.  In fact, it's precisely these differences of opinion over a fundamental aspect of the man's management approach that make footy discussion interesting.

What I do take issue with is any suggestion that Rafa's rotation policy is anything less than a carefully thought out management strategy.  That just makes me see red, I'm afraid, because it flies in the face of everything we know about the man (and after a fair few articles and books from those who have worked closely with him have come out in the past 3 years, I think it's fair to use "know" in this context). 

Now, do most people really, truly believe he 'rotates for the sake of rotation' or that his policy amounts to aimless 'tinkering'?  Deep down, I doubt it.  I think most supporters recognize that Rafa does what he does for carefully thought-out reasons, even if they disagree with those reasons.  The 'tinkerman' comments are borne of frustration, then, which is fair enough--we're all passionate supporters and that comes with the territory.  But, to me, it opens the door for pointless flame wars because, if it irks a calm, fairly unflappable guy like me ( ) you can bet it gets on the t!ts of other, less measured, posters and that's where the lack of respect and abuse creeps in...

So, I'm making a plea for restraint on both sides of the divide in the interests of good discussion.  We in the Rose-Tinted Brigade will promise not to spam up threads with the "Rafa knows best, stopping being so fickle" rubbish, if you Best Eleveners promise to stop implying that Rafa uses an Ipod Shuffle to pick his team each week.  Deal? 

Bad Bob wrote: We in the Rose-Tinted Brigade will promise not to spam up threads with the "Rafa knows best, stopping being so fickle" rubbish, if you Best Eleveners promise to stop implying that Rafa uses an Ipod Shuffle to pick his team each week.  Deal? 

bigmick wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:We in the Rose-Tinted Brigade will promise not to spam up threads with the "Rafa knows best, stopping being so fickle" rubbish, if you Best Eleveners promise to stop implying that Rafa uses an Ipod Shuffle to pick his team each week.  Deal? 

I just posted a long rant on this bit and it got lost somewhere in cyberspace. Maybe God is a rotationer too.

Best elevener though? Hmmmmm. Here we go again.  I DO NOT THINK WE SHOULD PICK EITHER THE SAME ELEVEN PLAYERS, OR INDEED THE BEST ELEVEN PLAYERS AVAILABLE IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. That must be a huge number of times I've said that. Before anybody puts this up, ITS NOT LIKE ZONAL MARKING EITHER. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE SAME PEOPLE SLAGGING THAT CONCEPT OFF AND THEN BEING MIRACULOUSLY CONVERTED, YOU JUST THINK YOU DO!!!

So we're not allowed to say that Rafa tinkers, fair enough but please, I'm no "best elevener" either.

I wondered if that one would irk you, mate.  Truthfully, I was going to say the "Anti-rotationalists" but it sounded so negative while "Best Eleveners" had a more upbeat vibe to it!

In all seriousness, I know that you are not advocating the same 11 every game (some others do, though) and I know that you were a big proponent of zonal marking.  No worries, mate, you've made your position abundantly clear on these themes. 

bigmick wrote:

Bad Bob wrote: We in the Rose-Tinted Brigade will promise not to spam up threads with the "Rafa knows best, stopping being so fickle" rubbish, if you Best Eleveners promise to stop implying that Rafa uses an Ipod Shuffle to pick his team each week.  Deal? 

I just posted a long rant on this bit and it got lost somewhere in cyberspace. Maybe God is a rotationer too.

Best elevener though? Hmmmmm. Here we go again.  I DO NOT THINK WE SHOULD PICK EITHER THE SAME ELEVEN PLAYERS, OR INDEED THE BEST ELEVEN PLAYERS AVAILABLE IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. That must be a huge number of times I've said that. Before anybody puts this up, ITS NOT LIKE ZONAL MARKING EITHER. YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE SAME PEOPLE SLAGGING THAT CONCEPT OFF AND THEN BEING MIRACULOUSLY CONVERTED, YOU JUST THINK YOU DO!!!

So we're not allowed to say that Rafa tinkers, fair enough but please, I'm no "best elevener" either.

Bad Bob wrote:

ConnO'var wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:To suggest he 'tinkers' is a cheap shot unworthy of the man and what he's accomplished with the club.  So, by all means, vent your spleen against particular selections or against the rotation policy in general those who must, but do us all a favour and spare us the tinkerman jibes--that kind of stuff is only going to lead us away from interesting discussion and down the road to flame wars, IMHO.

By and large I tend to agree with most of the stuff you post on here bob... But to the above quote, I do take exception and disagree 100%.

Whether or not someone uses the term tinker or over-rotate is semantics imo. Not everyone bothers with the subtle nuances of the English language when they post on these boards. Their message (and mine for that matter) is that Rafa got it wrong yesterday. And not all of it was hindsight... Many a poster had expressed incredulity when the team was announced and gave their reasons why. In that, I can find nothing wrong to be honest.

To suggest that using so-called "tinkerman-jibes" leads to flame wars is inaccurate imo. The flame wars which have invaded these boards over the last few months is not down to this. The reason flame wars arise is because of intolerance of an alternate view point. At times it seems that everytime something negative or an expression of dissappointment here leads to loads of derision, insults and what have you.

What is wrong with a little constructive criticism? Since when has the name of our beloved club changed from Liverpool FC to Benitez/Alonso/Gerrard etc tec FC? No one is above criticism... as long as it is constructive....

You want to stop flame wars? I assure you, so do I....

I've no issues with the rose-tinted brigade. To many opposing fans, I appear to be very much one of them.

Perhaps it's time you look at the attitude and posting styles methodology of a few on here instead. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how an abusive, intolerant, expletive laden post NOT "lead us away from interesting discussion and down to flame wars, IMHO".

My 2 p worth at any rate.

To clarify, mate, I'm in no way saying that you, me or anyone on here can't or shouldn't criticize Rafa.  I have no problem with those who feel that he got the team selection wrong (whether it was expressed before, during, or after the match) nor do I have a problem with those who feel that his rotation policy as a whole is suspect.  In fact, it's precisely these differences of opinion over a fundamental aspect of the man's management approach that make footy discussion interesting.

What I do take issue with is any suggestion that Rafa's rotation policy is anything less than a carefully thought out management strategy.  That just makes me see red, I'm afraid, because it flies in the face of everything we know about the man (and after a fair few articles and books from those who have worked closely with him have come out in the past 3 years, I think it's fair to use "know" in this context). 

Now, do most people really, truly believe he 'rotates for the sake of rotation' or that his policy amounts to aimless 'tinkering'?  Deep down, I doubt it.  I think most supporters recognize that Rafa does what he does for carefully thought-out reasons, even if they disagree with those reasons.  The 'tinkerman' comments are borne of frustration, then, which is fair enough--we're all passionate supporters and that comes with the territory.  But, to me, it opens the door for pointless flame wars because, if it irks a calm, fairly unflappable guy like me ( ) you can bet it gets on the t!ts of other, less measured, posters and that's where the lack of respect and abuse creeps in...

So, I'm making a plea for restraint on both sides of the divide in the interests of good discussion.  We in the Rose-Tinted Brigade will promise not to spam up threads with the "Rafa knows best, stopping being so fickle" rubbish, if you Best Eleveners promise to stop implying that Rafa uses an Ipod Shuffle to pick his team each week.  Deal? 

Deal!

Congrats on the mod thing btw...

AB's Red Army wrote:I tell you what mate, why not support a team with a manager who hasn't got broken English and plays the same team week in and week out?

Perhaps you'll stop moaning then. But then again I doubt it, you'll find something to whinge about no doubt.

Jose mourinho ?