Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:14 am

If we are going to tinker, change the team constantly, rotate, whichever way you look at it I have an urgent suggestion. Infact this would probably apply even if you are in favour of keeping a largely settled fourteen or fifteen players.

Ryan Babel must play up front very soon in a couple of games, either with or preferably without Torres alongside him. Why? because quite simply if, God forbid Torres was to become injured we would be left with a selection of Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin as our front players. None of them are exactly Speedy Gonzales (mind you neither was Gonzales either come to that but I digress) and we'd desperately need somebody who could beat me over fifty yards to play up front.

This is not just rotation it's an insurance policy and makes perfect sense to me. You never know, if in future Torres has had a "long haul" flight from somewhere like Albania and needs to have a rest for bit, then Babel could kind of stand-in up front and we wouldn't have to completely change the way we play :eyebrow

We might even consider trying it sooner rather than later, in a game at Home maybe, agaisnt one of the lesser lights. I know, lets try it against Birmingham.

Micky advocates rotation shock. Ryan Babel, lets play him up front against Birmingham. The foolishnes of youth, that's where he reckons he plays anyhow but what would he know.

by **Owzat** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:31 am

It's knowing when to rotate, fergie has got it wrong in the past and only sometimes got away with it. We can afford to lose two games in the Champions League, how many league games can we afford to lose two in? Fifteen? Twenty? If we win all our home games in the Champions League we should pick up at least one point away and qualify, therefore we could have played one up front (Crouch) and a holding midfield against Porto. That 0-0 yesterday would have been ok on Tuesday, I'd swap any win we might get against Porto for three points yesterday...................

And it's not being wise after the event, most people know what is needed to get through the group stages of the Champions League and while Porto may be our toughest away game, the bottom line is that we can afford to lose it. Or put another way we need as many points as possible to win the Premiership, we only need 10 from 18 to go through in the Champions League

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:46 am

I’d rather see Babel do what he does best, playing without any restrictions. He has shown he can cause a lot of problems by being allowed to escape the clutches of rigid a formation. Also I get the feeling that playing Babel as a SF/CF will restrict the amount of space in which he has to work in and I’m not sure if this will deflate some of his attacking qualities.

I suppose it wouldn’t harm our chances if we tried it for half an hour or so.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:55 am

I see where your coming from Mick and it makes sense to me, infact I think its a good call. As you say and God forbid if Torres ever became sidelined for a lenghty period of time, we'll need to add a bit more pace into the forward line.

In saying that though I wouldnt start that against the Brum on the weekend, feck that ! There's already enough movement and rotations going on in and around the team, and IMHO this will not help the team build momentum or settle. I'd be inclined to throw Babel in, if and when Torres became injured. I wouldnt try out selections for the 'just in case' cause.

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:13 am

Well at least there'd be a point to it BM, a sensible piece of reasoning perhaps meaning that if in future we decide to "rest" Torres (and lets face it, after his "long-haul" flight from Albania he probably desperately needed/deserved a rest) we have at least got somebody we can bring in who could beat a milk-float down to the end of the street.

Needless to say I'm totally with you on the fact that there's been enough fecking about for the time being but it's my hunch that at some stage the Dutchman will be needed up top. We could of course just keep it in the locker and then try it as a surprise tactic Away to Arsenal, a la Zenden last season but I'd rather let the kid get used to things against the likes of Birmingham at Home. Come to that, i'd like the other players to get used to him playing there too. I know it's something of a revolutionary and old-fashioned theory around here these days amongst many, particularly as football has changed so much in the last three seasons, but I kind of think players need to get used to playing together for a bit.

I see Alan Hansen has apparently been dipping his toe in the water re rotation. Like me BM, you won't be privvie to his thoughts living where you do but we aren't missing much. Football has changed so much in the last three seasons blokes like him are totally out of touch, clueless in fact.

Seriously though, I think giving Babel a shot as a genuine front-man before we actually need him might be sensible and prudent. Sceptical as I am that Torres is a bit jaded after four games and a four hour plane journey, it is reasonable to assume he will get tired at some point and we will need somebody who can offer more than Voronin and Crouch did yesterday that's for sure.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:30 am

Seriously though, I think giving Babel a shot as a genuine front-man before we actually need him might be sensible and prudent. Sceptical as I am that Torres is a bit jaded after four games and a four hour plane journey, it is reasonable to assume he will get tired at some point and we will need somebody who can offer more than Voronin and Crouch did yesterday that's for sure

Maybe we should give our reserve keeper a run out just incase Reina gets injured or cannot recover from a plane flight from Albania.

No seriously its a good idea Mick, but I think I'd stick with the "a la Zenden" surprise

. I've been critical of Kuyt in the past but I believe him and Torres need the time to form if possible a formidable partnership. They have looked lively and I'd like to keep the ball rolling with them from now, or time being. But as Willhemsson said maybe Torres could be thrown up front for the last 25 minutes or so.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:31 pm

bigmick wrote:If we are going to tinker, change the team constantly, rotate, whichever way you look at it I have an urgent suggestion. Infact this would probably apply even if you are in favour of keeping a largely settled fourteen or fifteen players.

Ryan Babel must play up front very soon in a couple of games, either with or preferably without Torres alongside him. Why? because quite simply if, God forbid Torres was to become injured we would be left with a selection of Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin as our front players. None of them are exactly Speedy Gonzales (mind you neither was Gonzales either come to that but I digress) and we'd desperately need somebody who could beat me over fifty yards to play up front.

This is not just rotation it's an insurance policy and makes perfect sense to me. You never know, if in future Torres has had a "long haul" flight from somewhere like Albania and needs to have a rest for bit, then Babel could kind of stand-in up front and we wouldn't have to completely change the way we play We might even consider trying it sooner rather than later, in a game at Home maybe, agaisnt one of the lesser lights. I know, lets try it against Birmingham.

Micky advocates rotation shock. Ryan Babel, lets play him up front against Birmingham. The foolishnes of youth, that's where he reckons he plays anyhow but what would he know.

I agree mate I wrote this before the pompey game :-

A little disappointed that Torres and Gerrard arn't playing but I think we still have enough to win this. I would have liked to see Babel given a chance as striker while Torres isn't playing but this is not the type of game to experiment in. I am a little worried that with Crouch playing we will change our game to accommodate him and play too many long hopeful balls, and without Gerrard we will have no one there to smash in the knockbacks.

Fingers crossed for a win

However after our draw at Portsmouth our next few games have taken on a new level of importance for me, and if we are going to experiment with Babel maybe it would be better to do it in the cups or when we are winning comfortably and can afford to bring Torres off.

I certainly wouldn't advocate trying it against Brum as its one of those games after a tiring European game when we need to be careful.

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:34 pm

Babel could be a good pacy alternative upfront. That's a good point Bigmick. I want to add some points not as an answer to the posters of this thread but as some ideas that wander my mind as of late.

I think that either you like or you dislike rotation. Bigmick has clear ideas about this for instance. What you don't do is to call it sensible rotation if we score one more than the opposition, and call it over-rotation if you don't win. So people just should have an opinion about if it's over rotation in the min 4 of the game, not at the end.

I can't understand how a poster I respect says elsewhere that yesterday rotation was "for the sake of rotation". Well, Torres won't score always with the regularity he has scored so far, so I don't think the score would have been necessarily different yesterday if he played from moment one.

Torres has played on weekend, then 90 min game in wednesday, and received a fair amount of kicks in those games. He couldn't train nothing along the week, and you have two players Crouch, and Voronin, that have responded well scoring in other matches. Coming another game in wednesday, surely it's the moment to give Torres a rest? I think so!.

What it really písses me off as of late is two things. Some people seem to expect to win the 3 points every week. As if that was the normal thing to do to the top clubs around the world. No it isn't. And a draw away can be good. The other thing that písses me off is that when we don't win we tend to say quickly "rotation, that's why" and we don't analyse other factors. Such as the opposition.

Pompey did a better defensive job without the ball than Villa and Derby did. They never pressed alone, but pressed the man in possession with coordinated pressing of two men always. Plus they did it constantly with those black strong players I cannot remember the names. It's simply more difficult to play Pompey than other teams not as well balanced defensively. If they press like that not many teams in England or in Spain would be able to take the 3 points in that stadium. The problem for them is that they had on front an structured team also and couldn't do much harm neither. As a result we had what some people call a cráp 0-0 game", but for me it was an interesting clash of a top league. They created chances only when we made mistakes, and we did little mistakes. I can remember a lost ball of Pennant in min 22 that provoked a counter and not much more.

One last thought about midfielder roles. Those who disagree we haven't a holding midfielder role in the team, just watch from min 30 to 45 in the first half who was the man that covered Arbeloa's attacks occupying his place in the back 4. That role is only done by two men in the team, Mascherano and Alonso. BTW Alonso shouldn't receive cards while protesting. It's a fundamental position and he got one for protesting. Even if he's right, he should know better. A card in his position in the first half is a problem.

Sorry to bring all this mess to this post, but I started the rant and I couldn't stop!

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Sorry but I'm on a bit of a rant too, carried over from Owzat's thread...

Can we please stop calling it "tinkering" and implying that Rafa rotates for the sake of rotation? Yes, I know if frustrates a lot of people on here to see a teamsheet that differs from the one they had in mind. Yes, I know that the margin of error at the top of the table is exceedingly slim and too many results like yesterday's may compromise our challenge. But, I also know that Rafa never does anything on a whim, without carefully thought out reasons and based on a mountain of information he and his assistants are gathering through training, scouting etc. To suggest he 'tinkers' is a cheap shot unworthy of the man and what he's accomplished with the club. So, by all means, vent your spleen against particular selections or against the rotation policy in general those who must, but do us all a favour and spare us the tinkerman jibes--that kind of stuff is only going to lead us away from interesting discussion and down the road to flame wars, IMHO.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:53 pm

What it really písses me off as of late is two things. Some people seem to expect to win the 3 points every week. As if that was the normal thing to do to the top clubs around the world. No it isn't. And a draw away can be good. The other thing that písses me off is that when we don't win we tend to say quickly "rotation, that's why" and we don't analyse other factors. Such as the opposition.

Pompey did a better defensive job without the ball than Villa and Derby did. They never pressed alone, but pressed the man in possession with coordinated pressing of two men always. Plus they did it constantly with those black strong players I cannot remember the names. It's simply more difficult to play Pompey than other teams not as well balanced defensively. If they press like that not many teams in England or in Spain would be able to take the 3 points in that stadium. The problem for them is that they had on front an structured team also and couldn't do much harm neither. As a result we had what some people call a cráp 0-0 game", but for me it was an interesting clash of a top league. They created chances only when we made mistakes, and we did little mistakes. I can remember a lost ball of Pennant in min 22 that provoked a counter and not much more.

But Sabre we created next to f.uck all against Portsmouth, now that may well of been done to them pressing and doing a lot of defensive things right. I said before, that Liverpool team that we saw yesterday played similary to that of last season ...... 'Devoid of anything going forward'. As well as Portsmouth played defensively, they were equally shocking in their sloppy passing from out of defence as they were just as sloppy giving us endless freekicks in and around the area, yet we still couldnt muster anything up, if that were ManU or Chelsea I reckon at one time or another they would of made something count. Its all well and good saying you cant expect three points every game, you cant expect ordinary performances as we saw yesterday if you are challenging for league honours. We're mixing with the big boys this year ( Ireckon) and you goals must be higher, therefore you should at least expect a decent team performance if not a win.
I think if either Gerrard or Torres had started that game they would of threatened more than our whole eam did yesterday, you cant go to places like Fratton Park, rest two of your best attacking players and hope for a win.

Like Mick said, If Mourinhio or Fergie were asked to pick our team, they'd of picked the one we put out with a smile and benched Torres, Gerrard and probably Babel as Benitez did. Which would of given Harry and his boys that little more of a belief that they could get something from this game.

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:56 pm

Some quarters of the board could argue that certain people (I won’t mention names) fail to see Rafa’s mistakes for what they are. I doubt you’ll find too many who disagree with the appointment of Rafa Benitez, however I find the people who always come out with the ‘In Rafa we trust’ mentality, just as tedious as those who continue to bemoan Benitez.

There is only a percentage of people on this forum who are able to criticise and praise Rafa without going to either extreme and this is why there are arguments amongst members.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:12 pm

Sabre wrote:Babel could be a good pacy alternative upfront. That's a good point Bigmick. I want to add some points not as an answer to the posters of this thread but as some ideas that wander my mind as of late.

I think that either you like or you dislike rotation. Bigmick has clear ideas about this for instance. What you don't do is to call it sensible rotation if we score one more than the opposition, and call it over-rotation if you don't win. So people just should have an opinion about if it's over rotation in the min 4 of the game, not at the end.

I can't understand how a poster I respect says elsewhere that yesterday rotation was "for the sake of rotation". Well, Torres won't score always with the regularity he has scored so far, so I don't think the score would have been necessarily different yesterday if he played from moment one.

Torres has played on weekend, then 90 min game in wednesday, and received a fair amount of kicks in those games. He couldn't train nothing along the week, and you have two players Crouch, and Voronin, that have responded well scoring in other matches. Coming another game in wednesday, surely it's the moment to give Torres a rest? I think so!.

What it really písses me off as of late is two things. Some people seem to expect to win the 3 points every week. As if that was the normal thing to do to the top clubs around the world. No it isn't. And a draw away can be good. The other thing that písses me off is that when we don't win we tend to say quickly "rotation, that's why" and we don't analyse other factors. Such as the opposition.

Pompey did a better defensive job without the ball than Villa and Derby did. They never pressed alone, but pressed the man in possession with coordinated pressing of two men always. Plus they did it constantly with those black strong players I cannot remember the names. It's simply more difficult to play Pompey than other teams not as well balanced defensively. If they press like that not many teams in England or in Spain would be able to take the 3 points in that stadium. The problem for them is that they had on front an structured team also and couldn't do much harm neither. As a result we had what some people call a cráp 0-0 game", but for me it was an interesting clash of a top league. They created chances only when we made mistakes, and we did little mistakes. I can remember a lost ball of Pennant in min 22 that provoked a counter and not much more.

One last thought about midfielder roles. Those who disagree we haven't a holding midfielder role in the team, just watch from min 30 to 45 in the first half who was the man that covered Arbeloa's attacks occupying his place in the back 4. That role is only done by two men in the team, Mascherano and Alonso. BTW Alonso shouldn't receive cards while protesting. It's a fundamental position and he got one for protesting. Even if he's right, he should know better. A card in his position in the first half is a problem.

Sorry to bring all this mess to this post, but I started the rant and I couldn't stop!

I have always been a supporter of rotation, as I see it as a neccessity in todays game. I don't think its the best policy however to leave out your key striker whilst you are also without your two best midfielders, your best defender is just coming back from injury, you are giving a new player his league debut and you compound this by replacing your key striker with a player who has looked out of sorts all season and tends to influence changes in our style of play (long balls)

Rotation I agree with but sometimes you have to say Gerrard, Mascherano and Riise will be fit for our next match, maybe it would be better to rest our best striker then. Surely thats just common sense?

As you said Sabre Portsmouth are a difficult team to play against, certainly more difficult than Birmingham at home should be, so get your best players on the pitch, take one game at a time and rest players when its sensible to do so not when you are forced through injury etc to rest other key players. ie if Carra and Agger were injured you wouldnt expect Rafa to rest Hyppia as well because he played in midweek.(Bit extreme but you hopefully get my drift)

I believe in common sense rotation.

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:32 pm

s@int wrote:
Sabre wrote:Babel could be a good pacy alternative upfront. That's a good point Bigmick. I want to add some points not as an answer to the posters of this thread but as some ideas that wander my mind as of late.

I think that either you like or you dislike rotation. Bigmick has clear ideas about this for instance. What you don't do is to call it sensible rotation if we score one more than the opposition, and call it over-rotation if you don't win. So people just should have an opinion about if it's over rotation in the min 4 of the game, not at the end.

I can't understand how a poster I respect says elsewhere that yesterday rotation was "for the sake of rotation". Well, Torres won't score always with the regularity he has scored so far, so I don't think the score would have been necessarily different yesterday if he played from moment one.

Torres has played on weekend, then 90 min game in wednesday, and received a fair amount of kicks in those games. He couldn't train nothing along the week, and you have two players Crouch, and Voronin, that have responded well scoring in other matches. Coming another game in wednesday, surely it's the moment to give Torres a rest? I think so!.

What it really písses me off as of late is two things. Some people seem to expect to win the 3 points every week. As if that was the normal thing to do to the top clubs around the world. No it isn't. And a draw away can be good. The other thing that písses me off is that when we don't win we tend to say quickly "rotation, that's why" and we don't analyse other factors. Such as the opposition.

Pompey did a better defensive job without the ball than Villa and Derby did. They never pressed alone, but pressed the man in possession with coordinated pressing of two men always. Plus they did it constantly with those black strong players I cannot remember the names. It's simply more difficult to play Pompey than other teams not as well balanced defensively. If they press like that not many teams in England or in Spain would be able to take the 3 points in that stadium. The problem for them is that they had on front an structured team also and couldn't do much harm neither. As a result we had what some people call a cráp 0-0 game", but for me it was an interesting clash of a top league. They created chances only when we made mistakes, and we did little mistakes. I can remember a lost ball of Pennant in min 22 that provoked a counter and not much more.

One last thought about midfielder roles. Those who disagree we haven't a holding midfielder role in the team, just watch from min 30 to 45 in the first half who was the man that covered Arbeloa's attacks occupying his place in the back 4. That role is only done by two men in the team, Mascherano and Alonso. BTW Alonso shouldn't receive cards while protesting. It's a fundamental position and he got one for protesting. Even if he's right, he should know better. A card in his position in the first half is a problem.

Sorry to bring all this mess to this post, but I started the rant and I couldn't stop!

I have always been a supporter of rotation, as I see it as a neccessity in todays game. I don't think its the best policy however to leave out your key striker whilst you are also without your two best midfielders, your best defender is just coming back from injury, you are giving a new player his league debut and you compound this by replacing your key striker with a player who has looked out of sorts all season and tends to influence changes in our style of play (long balls)

Rotation I agree with but sometimes you have to say Gerrard, Mascherano and Riise will be fit for our next match, maybe it would be better to rest our best striker then. Surely thats just common sense?

As you said Sabre Portsmouth are a difficult team to play against, certainly more difficult than Birmingham at home should be, so get your best players on the pitch, take one game at a time and rest players when its sensible to do so not when you are forced through injury etc to rest other key players. ie if Carra and Agger were injured you wouldnt expect Rafa to rest Hyppia as well because he played in midweek.(Bit extreme but you hopefully get my drift)

I believe in common sense rotation.

i agree totally.
i`m one of rafa`s biggest fans but i cant help but feel we gave away 2 points yesterday.
if you have to rest key players then leave them out 1 at a time when their influence wont be missed as much as there are other players to compensate, and ideally rest them in home games where the opposition is already on the back foot.
we had a better 11 in that squad than the one we put on the pitch yesterday.
i cant help feeling rafa had one eye on the porto game and it will only add to my sense of frustration if the likes of gerrard, torres, kuyt and mascherano line up in midweek.
with united only 2 titles away from our proud record we cant afford to be going into games with anything in reserve.

by **Sabre** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:46 pm

About S@int's and Bamaga's points.

Well having Gerrard in the pitch will always give you extra chances to get the 3 points. The Villa game was one that got complicated, and a genius action of Gerrard gave us the 3 points. Was that game much better if it wasn't for that action of Gerrard and the 3 points?, I remember more collective mistakes.

My criticism is only because some people, have no shame and say happily that from what they observe (which I think it's the sofa not Melwood) Rafa rotates for no reason.

Which is something (making things with no reason) I wouldn't dare to say about any professional coach at this level, let alone Rafa. What's more, they consider saying such things as seeing Rafa's mistakes for what they are, and they're serious, as if it was a balanced and well thought opinion, which IMHO crosses the line of being a joke.

So, if you don't believe in the whole idea, then when we win again 6-0 with Mascha and Alonso, or we win a european game comfortably with Alonso and Sissoko, then don't call it sensible rotation, criticise it aswell.

So I agree that playing Gerrard for instance COULD HAVE given us the 3 points. Playing Torres? well it MAY have given us the 3 points, but in football you never know. For what is worth when they came to the game they didn't score. Resting one of them as S@int suggests might have been a better idea, but I'm not so sure it would necessarily brought the victory. FWIW we could have lost for a joke of a penalty.

Bamaga, I disagree that we created fúck all. I remember a ball of VOronin that coulf have given it to Penannt and sent too strong, it was a clear one. I remember a good kick of Crouch with the left, with a good James stop. I remember a good shot from Benayoun with a good save of James again. Then Voronin did well in the second half and almost scored, he was unlucky, over the bar. And I remember too a ball in the second half that Crouch tried to finnish but it came behind him. That's more than nothing, we both agree a victory would be better, but it was more than creating fúck all.

by **LFC #1** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:59 pm

Owzat wrote:It's knowing when to rotate, fergie has got it wrong in the past and only sometimes got away with it. We can afford to lose two games in the Champions League, how many league games can we afford to lose two in? Fifteen? Twenty? If we win all our home games in the Champions League we should pick up at least one point away and qualify, therefore we could have played one up front (Crouch) and a holding midfield against Porto. That 0-0 yesterday would have been ok on Tuesday, I'd swap any win we might get against Porto for three points yesterday...................

And it's not being wise after the event, most people know what is needed to get through the group stages of the Champions League and while Porto may be our toughest away game, the bottom line is that we can afford to lose it. Or put another way we need as many points as possible to win the Premiership, we only need 10 from 18 to go through in the Champions League

I see where you are coming from Owzat but I think most of the changes yesterday were due to both the international break and looking forward to Porto. Gerrard was never going to start since he played both games for England with an injury, Mascherano had to play in Australia and only got back late in the week. Torres played two full games for Spain - those 3 being omitted didn't surprise me.

As for the Porto game on Tuesday, I think you may underestimate somewhat the importance of getting AT LEAST a point on Tuesday. It's important to get off to a positive start IMO as a loss on Tuesday would put a little bit of unnecessary pressure on, especially if were to then drop points against Marseille at Anfield. The first two games set the group up and we will want to pick up at least 4 points.

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