Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:51 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Talk about billhooks!, even laying the smallest comparison to Souness is insulting.

..........

Rafa's buys have invariably been a large step up in quality from those under Houllier. Every manager makes poor buys, but at least the ones you cite were either for nominal fees or players who we recouped money for. Houllier made an art out of p!ssing money on dodgy random foreigners. Rafa jas a significantly better record in this sense, and an eye for quality.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:57 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Talk about billhooks!, even laying the smallest comparison to Souness is insulting.

..........

Rafa's buys have invariably been a large step up in quality from those under Houllier. Every manager makes poor buys, but at least the ones you cite were either for nominal fees or players who we recouped money for. Houllier made an art out of p!ssing money on dodgy random foreigners. Rafa jas a significantly better record in this sense, and an eye for quality.

Yeah pal, I'm aware of the many f.uc.k ups Houiller made, by what's Houiller's mistakes on the market got to do with my point about Rafa's? Alls I said was Rafa has made many mistakes, I didn't compare them to Houiller, so because you want to make Rafa look like a great manager you compare his to Houiller's. OK I'll compare Rafa's 14 bad buys to Shankly's and Paisley's bad buys. 14 Rafa Shanks and Bob 0. You can make these things work either way.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:05 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Talk about billhooks!, even laying the smallest comparison to Souness is insulting.

..........

Rafa's buys have invariably been a large step up in quality from those under Houllier. Every manager makes poor buys, but at least the ones you cite were either for nominal fees or players who we recouped money for. Houllier made an art out of p!ssing money on dodgy random foreigners. Rafa jas a significantly better record in this sense, and an eye for quality.

Yeah pal, I'm aware of the many f.uc.k ups Houiller made, by what's Houiller's mistakes on the market got to do with my point about Rafa's? Alls I said was Rafa has made many mistakes, I didn't compare them to Houiller, so because you want to make Rafa look like a great manager you compare his to Houiller's. OK I'll compare Rafa's 14 bad buys to Shankly's and Paisley's bad buys. 14 Rafa Shanks and Bob 0. You can make these things work either way.

You're the one making a vague, if tongue in cheek comparison to Souness's buys. By simple logic, that would mean that Rafa's buys rank somewhere alongside Houllier's, if not worse. Talk about hypocrisy.

You go back decades to Shankly, clearly a very different time, at least my comparison compares incumbent and predecessor - a reasonable and timely comparison.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:16 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Talk about billhooks!, even laying the smallest comparison to Souness is insulting.

..........

Rafa's buys have invariably been a large step up in quality from those under Houllier. Every manager makes poor buys, but at least the ones you cite were either for nominal fees or players who we recouped money for. Houllier made an art out of p!ssing money on dodgy random foreigners. Rafa jas a significantly better record in this sense, and an eye for quality.

Yeah pal, I'm aware of the many f.uc.k ups Houiller made, by what's Houiller's mistakes on the market got to do with my point about Rafa's? Alls I said was Rafa has made many mistakes, I didn't compare them to Houiller, so because you want to make Rafa look like a great manager you compare his to Houiller's. OK I'll compare Rafa's 14 bad buys to Shankly's and Paisley's bad buys. 14 Rafa Shanks and Bob 0. You can make these things work either way.

You're the one making a vague, if tongue in cheek comparison to Souness's buys. By simple logic, that would mean that Rafa's buys rank somewhere alongside Houllier's, if not worse. Talk about hypocrisy.

You go back decades to Shankly, clearly a very different time, at least my comparison compares incumbent and predecessor - a reasonable and timely comparison.

If you read it properly mate you would see I was taking the mick when I compared Rafa's buys to Souness'. I don't think anyone in their right mind could compare a Spanish legend like Morientes with David Fuc.king Speedie.

As for comparing him with Shanks just because time has passed and football is different now, doesn't mean the eye to spot talent has gone. Shanks didn't make many if any fu.ck ups because he could see talent in a player. Like Wenger can now, he is in the times of Rafa but has the same of for quality as Shanks or Bob did. Bob seen a unknown lad from Northampton, name being Phil Neal. Neal went on to win 4 European Cups with us and earn 50 caps for England Wenger done the same, picked an unkown right back, this time Emanuel Eboue. So the eye for spotting talent is there so I don't take any notice of the billhooks of different times, Wenger can do it, so it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:27 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If you read it properly mate you would see I was taking the mick when I compared Rafa's buys to Souness'. I don't think anyone in their right mind could compare a Spanish legend like Morientes with David .ing Speedie.

As for comparing him with Shanks just because time has passed and football is different now, doesn't mean the eye to spot talent has gone. Shanks didn't make many if any fu.ck ups because he could see talent in a player. Like Wenger can now, he is in the times of Rafa but has the same of for quality as Shanks or Bob did. Bob seen a unknown lad from Northampton, name being Phil Neal. Neal went on to win 4 European Cups with us and earn 50 caps for England Wenger done the same, picked an unkown right back, this time Emanuel Eboue. So the eye for spotting talent is there so I don't take any notice of the billhooks of different times, Wenger can do it, so it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

I did read it properly mate, hence why I said "if tongue in cheek" - maybe you need to read it more closely? Even making that comparison is a mark of disrespect to Rafa, it clearly shows what little faith you have in his ability.

As for the shanks part, well I would say that as good as Wenger may appear at spotting talent, Arsenal have stagnated for the last three years. Rafa is so poor at spotting talent and yet he has helped us usurp Arsenal and Wenger the Shankly-esque talent spotter.

Times change and the comparison is silly. The game as a whole is very different, Rafa might actually have been able to spot a young Phil Neal had the talent been around. There is no young talent at the moment and he has only been here for three years anyway, revamping the youth system due to massive inefficiences in the Academy system does not remedy itself overnight. And regardless of that, Phil neal was signed in '74,after Shankly had been 15 years in the job. In 12 years time come back here and use that as justification for Rafa's poor talent spotting ability, then it may stand up.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:33 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:If you read it properly mate you would see I was taking the mick when I compared Rafa's buys to Souness'. I don't think anyone in their right mind could compare a Spanish legend like Morientes with David .ing Speedie.

As for comparing him with Shanks just because time has passed and football is different now, doesn't mean the eye to spot talent has gone. Shanks didn't make many if any fu.ck ups because he could see talent in a player. Like Wenger can now, he is in the times of Rafa but has the same of for quality as Shanks or Bob did. Bob seen a unknown lad from Northampton, name being Phil Neal. Neal went on to win 4 European Cups with us and earn 50 caps for England Wenger done the same, picked an unkown right back, this time Emanuel Eboue. So the eye for spotting talent is there so I don't take any notice of the billhooks of different times, Wenger can do it, so it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

I did read it properly mate, hence why I said "if tongue in cheek" - maybe you need to read it more closely? Even making that comparison is a mark of disrespect to Rafa, it clearly shows what little faith you have in his ability.

As for the shanks part, well I would say that as good as Wenger may appear at spotting talent, Arsenal have stagnated for the last three years. Rafa is so poor at spotting talent and yet he has helped us usurp Arsenal and Wenger the Shankly-esque talent spotter.

Times change and the comparison is silly. The game as a whole is very different, Rafa might actually have been able to spot a young Phil Neal had the talent been around. There is no young talent at the moment and he has only been here for three years anyway, revamping the youth system due to massive inefficiences in the Academy system does not remedy itself overnight. And regardless of that, Phil neal was signed in '74,after Shankly had been 15 years in the job. In 12 years time come back here and use that as justification for Rafa's poor talent spotting ability, then it may stand up.

2 points, both about Phil Neal.

1) The talent was there, it was a young spanish right back I recall being named something along the lines of Josemi, might be wrong but thats how I remember it.

2) You knowledge of Liverpool seems to be so poor you're not quite sure on when Shanks left and when Phil Neal arrived, because if you did you would know Shanks left and THEN Phil Neal arrived, because it's a known fact that Phil Neal was the first signing on Bob Paisley. Which takes me back to my 1st point. Wasn't Josemi Rafa's first signing?

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:47 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:2 points, both about Phil Neal.

1) The talent was there, it was a young spanish right back I recall being named something along the lines of Josemi, might be wrong but thats how I remember it.

2) You knowledge of Liverpool seems to be so poor you're not quite sure on when Shanks left and when Phil Neal arrived, because if you did you would know Shanks left and THEN Phil Neal arrived, because it's a known fact that Phil Neal was the first signing on Bob Paisley. Which takes me back to my 1st point. Wasn't Josemi Rafa's first signing?

1) Had the talent been there Rafa may have been able to spot it, but for £2m please tell me who you buy? Was Paisley in a new country? No, he had been in and around the club for years, Rafa made a utility signing, someone he knew from Spain - the comparison is silly.

2) It was my understanding and always has been that Shankly AND Paisley were responsible for spotting Neal, Paisley was his assistant before he took full charge. When he took over he signed him, but Shankly also had a hand in spotting him. The question was about TALENT SPOTTING after all.

It seems that you are stuck in Pangaea, the comparisons don't stand up, times have moved on and you don't put it in any perspective. You don't take into account the talent available, the inefficencies of the youth setup, the type of player needed in todays game... the increase in foreign players, and so on.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:54 am

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:2 points, both about Phil Neal.

1) The talent was there, it was a young spanish right back I recall being named something along the lines of Josemi, might be wrong but thats how I remember it.

2) You knowledge of Liverpool seems to be so poor you're not quite sure on when Shanks left and when Phil Neal arrived, because if you did you would know Shanks left and THEN Phil Neal arrived, because it's a known fact that Phil Neal was the first signing on Bob Paisley. Which takes me back to my 1st point. Wasn't Josemi Rafa's first signing?

1) Had the talent been there Rafa may have been able to spot it, but for £2m please tell me who you buy? Was Paisley in a new country? No, he had been in and around the club for years, Rafa made a utility signing, someone he knew from Spain - the comparison is silly.

2) It was my understanding and always has been that Shankly AND Paisley were responsible for spotting Neal, Paisley was his assistant before he took full charge. When he took over he signed him, but Shankly also had a hand in spotting him. The question was about TALENT SPOTTING after all.

It seems that you are stuck in Pangaea, the comparisons don't stand up, times have moved on and you don't put it in any perspective. You don't take into account the talent available, the inefficencies of the youth setup, the type of player needed in todays game... the increase in foreign players, and so on.

Trying to cover your own back pal by stating Neal was Shankly's doing. Yet you still haven't grasped it that Neal was indeed the 1st signing of Bob Paisley.

As for Josemi costing 2 million. Eboue cost less. Gary C>U>N>T Neville cost less. Nicky Hunt of Bolton cost less. And David Raven would of saved us 2 million if alls we wanted was cover for Finnan. Why waste 2 million that could of been saved and spent on a player we needed. All the right backs listed were better than Josemi.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:02 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:2 points, both about Phil Neal.

1) The talent was there, it was a young spanish right back I recall being named something along the lines of Josemi, might be wrong but thats how I remember it.

2) You knowledge of Liverpool seems to be so poor you're not quite sure on when Shanks left and when Phil Neal arrived, because if you did you would know Shanks left and THEN Phil Neal arrived, because it's a known fact that Phil Neal was the first signing on Bob Paisley. Which takes me back to my 1st point. Wasn't Josemi Rafa's first signing?

1) Had the talent been there Rafa may have been able to spot it, but for £2m please tell me who you buy? Was Paisley in a new country? No, he had been in and around the club for years, Rafa made a utility signing, someone he knew from Spain - the comparison is silly.

2) It was my understanding and always has been that Shankly AND Paisley were responsible for spotting Neal, Paisley was his assistant before he took full charge. When he took over he signed him, but Shankly also had a hand in spotting him. The question was about TALENT SPOTTING after all.

It seems that you are stuck in Pangaea, the comparisons don't stand up, times have moved on and you don't put it in any perspective. You don't take into account the talent available, the inefficencies of the youth setup, the type of player needed in todays game... the increase in foreign players, and so on.

Trying to cover your own back pal by stating Neal was Shankly's doing. Yet you still haven't grasped it that Neal was indeed the 1st signing of Bob Paisley.

As for Josemi costing 2 million. Eboue cost less. Gary C>U>N>T Neville cost less. Nicky Hunt of Bolton cost less. And David Raven would of saved us 2 million if alls we wanted was cover for Finnan. Why waste 2 million that could of been saved and spent on a player we needed. All the right backs listed were better than Josemi.

1) I'm getting to the point and that was about TALENT SPOTTING, I have acknowledged that he was Paisley's first signing and where have I said he was not Paisley's first signing?, Paisley was Shanks' assistant and the question was about TALENT SPOTTING - it was Shanks' scout Twentyman who found Neal not Paisley - I think you need to read up on your history. Have you not grasped the idea of getting to the point ?

David Raven better than Josemi :laugh:

Josemi was poor, but he had a few good games at the start - Raven on the other hand was and is not remotely up to the standard. There are levels of sh!tness and Raven is much further down than Josemi - Carlisle Utd vs Villareal. Anyhow, we needed cover, and Josemi was a player Rafa new about - how was he supposed to know if David fecking Raven would be able to do the job when he had only just turned up in a new country?

Eboue was not Wenger's first signing, but you want to avoid the point again for the sake of your argument.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:53 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Talk about billhooks!, even laying the smallest comparison to Souness is insulting.

..........

Rafa's buys have invariably been a large step up in quality from those under Houllier. Every manager makes poor buys, but at least the ones you cite were either for nominal fees or players who we recouped money for. Houllier made an art out of p!ssing money on dodgy random foreigners. Rafa jas a significantly better record in this sense, and an eye for quality.

Yeah pal, I'm aware of the many f.uc.k ups Houiller made, by what's Houiller's mistakes on the market got to do with my point about Rafa's? Alls I said was Rafa has made many mistakes, I didn't compare them to Houiller, so because you want to make Rafa look like a great manager you compare his to Houiller's. OK I'll compare Rafa's 14 bad buys to Shankly's and Paisley's bad buys. 14 Rafa Shanks and Bob 0. You can make these things work either way.

You're the one making a vague, if tongue in cheek comparison to Souness's buys. By simple logic, that would mean that Rafa's buys rank somewhere alongside Houllier's, if not worse. Talk about hypocrisy.

You go back decades to Shankly, clearly a very different time, at least my comparison compares incumbent and predecessor - a reasonable and timely comparison.

If you read it properly mate you would see I was taking the mick when I compared Rafa's buys to Souness'. I don't think anyone in their right mind could compare a Spanish legend like Morientes with David Fuc.king Speedie.

As for comparing him with Shanks just because time has passed and football is different now, doesn't mean the eye to spot talent has gone. Shanks didn't make many if any fu.ck ups because he could see talent in a player. Like Wenger can now, he is in the times of Rafa but has the same of for quality as Shanks or Bob did. Bob seen a unknown lad from Northampton, name being Phil Neal. Neal went on to win 4 European Cups with us and earn 50 caps for England Wenger done the same, picked an unkown right back, this time Emanuel Eboue. So the eye for spotting talent is there so I don't take any notice of the billhooks of different times, Wenger can do it, so it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

Yes, Wenger - he can spot LOADS of talent - NEVER makes a f*ck-up, does he?

Stop chatting b*llocks.

Wenger has made more c*ck-ups than Souness and Houllier put together.

Wenger's flops (Those who failed at Arsenal (or left due to Wenger being a tit), regardless of success elsewhere) up to 2005 (as some of the signings since may or may not break through the ranks in the future):

Wiltord, Garde, Grimandi, Boa Morte, Manninger, Upson, Mendez, Wreh, Grodin, Pennant, Kanu, Luzhny, Diawara, Obinna, Malz, Sylvinho, Suker, Galli, Volz, Demel, Stepanovs, Edu, Juan, Jeffers, Van Bronckhorst, Wright, Tavlaridis, Cygan, Shaaban, Warmuz, Lupoli, Almunia.

Nope - all World-beaters, them. :bowdown

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:08 am

My point is Rafa has made just as many mistakes as Wenger. Rafa has had 3 years, Wenger 10 so obviously Wenger can spot talent a whole lot more. Also who said Eboue was Wenger's 1st signing?

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:06 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:My point is Rafa has made just as many mistakes as Wenger. Rafa has had 3 years, Wenger 10 so obviously Wenger can spot talent a whole lot more. Also who said Eboue was Wenger's 1st signing?

i wouldnt pay any attention to what you have to say considering you're the one who suggested liverpool should buy lita and doyle.

by **chrisrafman** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:11 pm

i think rafa has been quite shrewd. look at the players we have from him. reina, agger, alonso, sissoko, mascherano, crouch, kuyt. try seeing us get to a cl final without them. even the :censored:

buys havent broke the bank at all, zenden was free, kromkamp was a swap for josemi which the maoney was made back selling kromkamp to psv. nunez cost nothing, we made money on bellamy, cisse was a houllier signing. also i think gonzalez, pennant and arbeloa have a lot to prove next year. garcia is a legend and offloading him has helped bring in fernando torres. so were a lot stronger than 2004. we have world class throughtout the starting 11, squad depth, a big and talented youth team. new owners and a new stadium on the way. all rafa needed was the financial backing that the yanks are giving him. now watch us dominate engalnd for the next decade

by **Wilhelmsson** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:19 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Well, when you make sarcastic comments about Rafa's progress I'd say that is a fairly strong indication that you don't feel we've made significant progress under him. You talk about success, but you make no accommodation for the 'progress' we've made - you talk in rhetorics. You suggest that expectation determines whether or not we are a big club, expectation is one thing, but the reality of that expectation is another. You won't distinguish between the two.

I never intended to portray myself as sarcastic; I was being very sincere in my posts as I am with every discussion I participate in. Liverpool is making steady progress under Rafa, which is nice and I am pleased with this, however I refuse to overstate this because IMO a lot of fans are doing so, calling Rafa amazing is too strong a word for me to use at this current stage within his career at Anfield.

Liverpool is looking stronger every season under Rafa, what he has achieved thus far in his career with Liverpool has been good, he is a competent manager and I have every faith in his managerial abilities, he is the right man to bring the club back on track and steer us to league and European success (again) in the future (hopefully not too distant).

I have accommodated Rafa’s progress in my posts, I’m not going to drone on in my posts and state the obvious, and everyone associated with the club knows that the club has progressed under Benitez.

I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am being ignorant in not suggesting Rafa has been successful in the league. That’s my mindset and this is how I think, I believe in Shankly’s quote of “You are either first or you are nothing”. Maybe this quote is too strong for some supporters, but for me, it’s spot on and it marks out the successful teams, players and managers from the minnows and middlemen.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:30 pm

chrisrafman wrote:i think rafa has been quite shrewd. look at the players we have from him. reina, agger, alonso, sissoko, mascherano, crouch, kuyt. try seeing us get to a cl final without them. even the buys havent broke the bank at all, zenden was free, kromkamp was a swap for josemi which the maoney was made back selling kromkamp to psv. nunez cost nothing, we made money on bellamy, cisse was a houllier signing. also i think gonzalez, pennant and arbeloa have a lot to prove next year. garcia is a legend and offloading him has helped bring in fernando torres. so were a lot stronger than 2004. we have world class throughtout the starting 11, squad depth, a big and talented youth team. new owners and a new stadium on the way. all rafa needed was the financial backing that the yanks are giving him. now watch us dominate engalnd for the next decade

If we get back to days I grew up with in the late 60s early 70s, watching us constantly destroy sides, which lead on to our great sides of the 70s and 80s I would be chuffed to bits, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

As for finicial backing, it really p!sses me off when people believe we have only been finically backed since the yanks arrived. David Moores put his hand in his pockets for every manager of whom he was chairman for. He allowed Rafa to go out and spend around 65/70 million pounds. So I hate this all Rafa needed was finicall backing, he has spent the majority of it on sh!t.

As people seem to believe I have a hatred for Rafa, I think this is a time to put the record straight. I was fortunate to grow up and watch us tear aparrt the finest sides England and the rest of Europe could offer on a regular basis. I think that is why I personally find it difficult to accept Rafa as a genius, because fans of my generation became acustomed to winning the league and since we haven't even been close to that under Benitez, I can't class him as a genius. Whereas for younger fans who grew up with the dross Souness put us through in the early 90s, Rafa probably looks the best thing since sliced bread. So I think my opinion compared to others, is just from the generations we grew up in. So overall, I think Rafa has made a huge impact on Liverpool Football Club, and he has taken us in the right direction, but for me to be 100% certain of the fella, he has to deliver his European form into league form.

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