Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:26 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:All I'm asking is that we give ourselves a chance.

I get the slight impression that you harbour some hope that Rafa might just be reading this!

He does.

by **The Hitman** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:44 pm

john craig wrote: To an extent the CL run papered over the cracks last season and shielded him from any abuse. If we finish next season scraping into the CL after substantial investment this summer, Benitez will be under severe pressure to keep his job, make no mistake. Whatever way you look at it this is a massive season for LFC and for Benitez.

Good post mate

Ask any fan if they would rather win the leauge than the Cl and they will say the former. The fans who own season tickets also want to see some attacking football . We play a similar style to Chelsea...... just without Drogba. If we had a player like Drogba it wudn't be so bad but we have kuyt instead !
We spent poorly last summer and we know it.
Why is rafa so negative ? Wud like to see the players express themselves forget about tactics
Was Gatusso so wrong ?
I think you can choke a team with too much tactics .

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:45 pm

Rotation imho was only part of the reason for the poor start, and we have been over the others in this thread. Before we vilify Rafa's rotation policy, we have to understand why, was it because he didn't want to win the games? of course not. Sometimes it was down to injuries, sometimes down to poor form, hey even poor mgmt by Rafa (easy in hindsight), maybe he dropped players for reason we dont know... things only seen in training, but above all he set the team up to win.

Personally i felt it was a lack of faith in the players that instigated some of the rotation, the back 5 barring injuries didn't change much, except fot phasing in Agger, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt played most of the time, but when you detect a weakness in the opposition and you don't believe Crouch can exploit that, but Bellamy could, what do you do? Thats the problem when you buy your 2nd 3rd choice players, there will always be deficiencies in their play, that will cause you to chop and change.

If we sign a top class forward, then he is unlikey to be rotated as much, his skills should make him far more indispensible, if he performs he would then join the ranks of Gerrard, Carra, Reina etc. Additionally it will mean that the sqaud strikers are also better than last year, so when rotation occurs the team will be stronger than that of last years. BUT we have to sign a top class forward.

I have to ask, why then did we mass rotate on a ridiculous level in pre-season,, including in the Charity Shield (where us winning with a much weakened and rotated team was in retrospect the worst thing that could have happened

As you say in retrospect Mick, but at the time we were all crowing, and even lauding Zendens performance. The teams performance reinforced rafas notion that certain players would do a job for us, but as it turned out, they couldn't, that doesn't mean that a level of rotation will not work, but that you need good enough players.

by **puroresu** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:53 am

The Hitman wrote:
john craig wrote: To an extent the CL run papered over the cracks last season and shielded him from any abuse. If we finish next season scraping into the CL after substantial investment this summer, Benitez will be under severe pressure to keep his job, make no mistake. Whatever way you look at it this is a massive season for LFC and for Benitez.

Good post mate

Ask any fan if they would rather win the leauge than the Cl and they will say the former. The fans who own season tickets also want to see some attacking football . We play a similar style to Chelsea...... just without Drogba. If we had a player like Drogba it wudn't be so bad but we have kuyt instead !
We spent poorly last summer and we know it.
Why is rafa so negative ? Wud like to see the players express themselves forget about tactics
Was Gatusso so wrong ?
I think you can choke a team with too much tactics .

Against the majority of the sides in this league we have the better players and I just wish rafa would allow them to express themselves more and believe in there ability to score more goals than the other side.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:01 am

That over rotation last season ended up in us winning nothing putting all your eggs in one basket for the CL is a very dangerous game to play.
Our league form was feckin dire at the start and at the end, I hope to god next season wont be the same, that humilliation by Arsenal in them two games was down to one thing resting players and putting Dudek in goal.
One person to blame for it and it was Rafa.
Palletta totally humiliated in that 6-3 game wont have helped his confidence one bit what so ever.

by **mungi** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:38 am

i dont mind rotating, i mean u cant play the same team week in week out because each game is different from others. some games u need to play cautiously and this will affect the players used, same goes if u play agressivly

by **stmichael** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:42 pm

redtrader74 wrote:If we sign a top class forward, then he is unlikey to be rotated as much, his skills should make him far more indispensible, if he performs he would then join the ranks of Gerrard, Carra, Reina etc.

You see I'd like to believe this but I won't believe it until I actually see it.

You see it seems that even if one of our strikers scores a hat-trick, it wont guarantee them a starting place for the next game. Rafa appears to look at games and go 'ah i need this tool for this particular job' (i'm not calling any of our strikers tools by the way ). I don't particular agree with that method as I think Strikers should have incentive to score i.e. to play in the next game.

Rafa seems to be of the opinion that 'you're a footballer, you have certain qualities and we pay you to do a job, now go out there and do it', which i suppose is correct in a way. However I still think strikers should be given a chance to establish a first choice partnership.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:11 pm

Hopefully Rafa will go into his pre-season campaign with all the signings he wants. Last season there was too much transfer activity after our competitive fixtures had begun, and absolutely no time to bed new signings in.

Rotation can work for us, but we need a top drawer squad, and we simply didn't have that going into the first month last season.

Signings aside, having Garcia, Aurelio and Kewell fit and available will give us so many more options than we had at times last season. To be honest, with these guys available, and the likes of Gonzalez and Zenden gone, I already feel better about the squad.

What I want is to go into a game and not be thinking "oooooh... not sure at all about him playing Traore/Pellegrino/Gonzalez/Zenden today". Every season we've had weak links, but gradually Rafa's identifying and getting rid of them.

It sounds to me like we're going to go into next season with Sissoko being arguably our worst player likely to get games. And I still rate Sissoko. There's Voronin too, but I can see Garcia being used up front more than him, so I wonder if he's almost going to be the 5th striker.

More bodies are going to come in, and hopefully every single one will be the kind of player you'd happily clap out onto the pitch. There'll probably be more Gonzalez-type false hopes, but I do like the fact that we're big on identifying youngsters who will hopefully grow into the team as opposed to walking straight into it. That'll make victories so much sweeter in the long run.

by **stmichael** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:01 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:Manu won the league due a period of heavy injuries to chelsea, thats all. They played the same this season as the last few, chelseas heavy spending had nothing to do with the way they played. Also without Ronaldo they would not have won the league, imo, he was the biggest influence on their side. Its for that reason i believe we are only one top player away from winning it ourselves. Tevez plus a couple of decent additions and with a bit of luck no.19 beckons.

I disagree with you when you say manure won the league playing in much a similar way to the three seasons previous to that.

You cite Ronaldo as being the most influential player in their success last season. He was nowhere near as developed in terms of his final ball and decision making before last season, he also developed physically that gave him a much more of a powerful edge when running with the ball.

The difference was palpable, Scholes was fully fit, Giggs was on top form and Vidic struck a partnership in central defence that was rock solid for most of the season. All in all the blend and development of the side was far more advanced than in the previous three seasons.

It was in reply to a different question, the way they played was the same, their methods were pretty much the same. Obviously they played better than their previous season, they amassed more points. I still maintain without the massive injuries to chelski all concentrated at one period, no title for manu.

Did a fit and on form Scholes not alter the way in which they play?, I'd say it gave them a cutting edge that they lacked in the previous season. The loss of Van nistelrooy also significantly altered the way they played to more of a reliance on the midfielders interchanging and getting forward to supply goals - e.g. Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes.

Alright then valid point.....UTD spend a lot of money, maybe more than us especially with this summer spree included but low & behold you look at the team since 2004/05 and you still have the bones there. Us...we have a constant revolving door going on with CMs succeeding and then dropping form, maybe even leaving. Wingers who can't find any kind of consistency, and upfront, we've probably bought more strikers than any other top side in the league over the past 3 years.

We seem to be in the game of quantity versus quality and throw in the routine of giving players a game off every 2nd or 3rd game, 12 months to settle or you are out and it looks a bit of a mess.

by **Stu.Murph** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:42 pm

In today's game you HAVE to roate. Rafa does it needlesly and in a stupid way aswell. You rotate players when they lose form or fitness.

However, this team/squad/first 11/club... whatever the :censored:

you want to call it... is absoloutely no where near being good enough in anyway shape or form and is AT LEAST 3 top class players away from challenging and maybe 4 or 5 away from being a great side.

We DESPERATELY NEED a centre half and two strikers. Withtout those players, we aren't going to improve a great deal next season.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:16 pm

We DESPERATELY NEED a centre half and two strikers. Withtout those players, we aren't going to improve a great deal next season.

But the defensive numbers of the team do not suggest we're failing in the back four do they?

Maybe be I'd bring a top class centre back in order to replace Hyypia now his cycle is coming to an end, but can't say the back four has been a problem this years.

by **mr_weed_80@hotmail.com** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:19 pm

i was a huge fan of hyypia for ages however im coming to terms with the fact that maybe its time we replaced
however this aint the main issue as without him we have agger and caragher with a number of youngsters in the youth who deserve a chance
i reckon wingers are more important...and a striker but thats just plain obvious

by **stmichael** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:52 am

Sabre wrote:
We DESPERATELY NEED a centre half and two strikers. Withtout those players, we aren't going to improve a great deal next season.

But the defensive numbers of the team do not suggest we're failing in the back four do they?

Maybe be I'd bring a top class centre back in order to replace Hyypia now his cycle is coming to an end, but can't say the back four has been a problem this years.

We have a great defense, one of the main reasons why we are a top 4 team, our problem is that the other top teams have very good defenses as well. I agree with Stu that we possibly need another centre half, because if Carra or Agger get injured then we've only really got Arbeloa to fill in if Hyypia leaves as expected.

Just going back to the subject though, if we agree on this that goals usually gets scored because of defensive mistakes, and defensive mistakes gets forced from attacking pressure I guess it highlights our main problem away from home.

We will not force these defensive mistakes by playing the waiting/controlling game and we will not score the perfect goal enough times to get the points we need either.

If we look at the other top teams in the mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs, only Chelsea can be compared to us, but the difference is that they put so much more pressure on the opponents on set pieces and are so much better on set pieces that they will grind out the results away from home, the fact they have a couple of attacking players with better abilities than ourselves also helps off course.

I have heard some whispers about us not using to much time on set pieces at Melwood, if this is true its nothing but shocking, if its not true, then don't shoot me because I have to say I find it hard to believe myself, but it came from a reasonable source.

If we look at the other 3 teams they will attack the opposition, especially the weaker teams and if Spurs and Arsenal had as good a defensive foundations as we have I`m not sure we could even get into the CL places with our safety approach whatever and whereever the opposition is.

Whats even more frustrating is that we have the ability to do it, but our manager for some reason are not willing to use it.
The best half of football I have seen in recent years was our first half at home against Juventus in 2004/05, one of the best teams in the world at the time and a defensive unit good as anyone with players like
Buffon
Zebina Thuram Cannavaro Zambrotta
Blasi Emerson

as their defensive players.

Juventus did not know what hit them, and having seen a decent amount of Juve matches through the years I have never seen them outplayed like that.

This is not the only time we have done this either, on the few occasions we have used the tactics we have been amazing to watch, its just a shame it happens far to seldom.

The question is if we can attack and outplay one of the best teams in the world, with unquestionable some of the best defensive players in the world in their team when we really go for it, why don't we do the same against mediocre teams like Boro, Fulham, Sheffield Utd, Charlton etc away from home, we should blow them of the pitch, not be cautious in our approach in case they might score.

Whats likely to happen is that they will do exactly that and we are 1-0 down it seems like a lost cause anyway.

This is something that really needs to change and if we get to witness the same next season, well then I think Rafa`s time could be up, there I said it, but let me also add that hopefully will we improve if we can get some better quality attacking players in.

by **woof woof !** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:28 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:In today's game you HAVE to roate. Rafa does it needlesly and in a stupid way aswell. You rotate players when they lose form or fitness.

However, this team/squad/first 11/club... whatever the you want to call it... is absoloutely no where near being good enough in anyway shape or form and is AT LEAST 3 top class players away from challenging and maybe 4 or 5 away from being a great side.

We DESPERATELY NEED a centre half and two strikers. Withtout those players, we aren't going to improve a great deal next season.

Certainly agree that we are at still well short of being considered a great side. Not sure however if I would say we are desperate for two strikers and a center half. I personally would give more priority to signing at least one top class striker and sorting out our left and right midfield/wing positions.

by **bigmick** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:30 pm

Well I only hope on the question of us signing Torres that Sabes is as accurate about his chances of success as he was about Morientes and Gonzales

(Sorry Ivan someone had to say it mate). Seriously though, when I saw him in the World Cup the kid can obviously play, and if Rafa is going to spend that kind of money on him, and/or the Brazilian bloke who plays for Roma who I must confess I've never heard of, I'm willing to bet they've got a more than even chance of making the grade.

Liverpool FC Forum

Getting the consistency right...

Who is online