Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

I wouldn't normally add a new thread on a subject that has been considered elsewhere, as I hate it when other people do just that. But I'm gonna allow myself that luxury as the footy chat is generally swamped by transfer speculation at the moment. Anyhow my main thought at the moment is this. basically that the key to success is not necessarily having the best individual players, but having them play together, as a team, for a period of SEVERAL YEARS.

Ferguson has always been able to keep a core of players in each of the teams he has built to get used to each other and particularly of the attacking sort, and sign young hungry players who when the time comes play with and eventually take over from them. Thats why we see them tearing teams apart with good movement and skill year after year because they know where to find each other on the pitch.

Yes they havent been as good in the few years before last season, mainly due to Chelsea's spending power, but last season this process that Ferguson uses came to fruition and them winning the league again. For me, you could even argue that the most important Man U players aren't even Rooney and Ronaldo. They play superb attacking team football but it all stems from the understanding between the players. It's Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes and Giggs who are their key players, and I really don't rate them as individual players at all any more (Giggs excepted, who I think has been the best player of the Premiership era bar none).

Similarly I think that far more important than having flashy new players at Liverpool is having a set of players who have played together successfully for SEVERAL (I mean at least three) years together as a unit. That's why I think getting Alonso, Gerrard, et al on contracts isn't just a nice security, it's nigh-on essential. Various people have muttered that because we've got loads of decent central midfielders, Alonso could be disposed with; I couldn't disagree more, I think he's got an understanding with Stevie and the defence that only playing with the consistenly for ages can bring. I think that players should only be ditched from the team if they're doing a BAD job; if they're doing alright, I'd in general leave them in the side, because you're gonna lose more ground telling yourself 'these new players who I've brought into the squad need time to settle' and before you know it you've got another bad autumn whistling past you.

Riise is a case in point. Sure, his form hasn't been the best of late; that said, he's got the experience at the top level and we KNOW that he can do a top job for us, relatively consistently. I don't believe that top teams dump their best players just because they lose a bit of form. Sure, provide a some competition for him - Aurelio was really maturing into a very clever player towards the end of last season, Arbeloa provides a further option and by all accounts Insua sounds pretty special - but he's a consistent reference point that it would be suicidal to lose because the manager might get irritated with his form.

On the transfer front, the only area I think we're in DESPERATE need is a goalscoring striker. Up front we're full of 'added options' at the moment. The 'never-give-up striker who holds the ball up well', the 'big target man who scares defences', the 'pacy dangerman who also scares defences', but not actually anyone who does nothing except for bang in goals. We need someone who can score big goals, little goals, fat goals, thin goals, black goals, white goals, all kinds of goals.

Creatively, I've seen some of you guys speculating that Rafa might be looking to go more 4-2-3-1 next season as much as possible and this seems to make sense. Once again, this just makes me think that we can ALMOST make do with what we've got in midfield, but really need a top quality target striker. The '2' are Alonso & Mascherano with Sissoko in reserve; the '3' are Gerrard, Garcia and Kewell, with Pennant, Leto, Aurelio in reserve. Where Lucas fits in remains to be seen. But if you play with only one up front, then quite frankly the strikers we've got at the moment are all far from ideal.

Not sure about the whole Benayoun business - can't say it gets me excited, but then I fall into the trap of 'he plays for a mediocre Premiership club, not Real Madrid, and he's not very exotic, so I can't get excited'. I'd trust Rafa to know what he wants. Malouda sounds like a knob anyway.

I'd be for throwing my eggs in the striker basket, selling Bellamy to raise some extra cash and blowing the lot on a seriously decent player to score some goals. With £8m from Bellamy, plus the money for the likes of Gonzalez & co, plus CL money, TV money and we still have to ASSUME that G&H will provide some pocket money of some sort, however meagre, to spend, then we're surely looking at a budget of at least £30m gross to spend. I think our strikers could score the goals needed to win the league (Although I wouldnt turn down the likes of Eto'o) but we need the right service to them and Garcia and Kewell wont do it due to lack of consistency on the field and injuries respectively. So therefore we need at least two wide players to do the job. But I fear that, whoever we get, if they dont produce right away will lead to us looking at new players again next summer, they will need time just as Wenger gave Pires & Henry. I think we're still 2-3 years at least to winning the league, unless we are rich and can do a Chelsea and sign the best out there, I just hope we get behind the new players and give them time to build that consistency and understanding on the pitch.

I also really think that any new signing should start on the bench and work his way gradually into the team, only if it can be comprehensively proven that the team will play better for his inclusion.

Thoughts?

[mr_weed_80@hotmail.com]

you've pointed out the need for a goalscorer who will blend into the team and help create a togetherness which will complete the liverpool side...n as much as i hate to say it but thats michael owen

i completely agree with u about all you've said yet i'm starting to swallow my pride recently and think michael owen would be ideal

n if he does we can always sell him back to newcastle for £17m 

[mungi]

great post m8 , finally a discussion instead of all these rubbish. 4-2-3-1 does look like the formation for next yr with the players you mentioned above. barring we sell no players i think the striker we need but probaly wont get is henry or etoo. those two players can hold the ball up and give some nice touches off to the likes of gerrard, kewell garcia, etc. they are very intelligent with their movement to make room for others and they knock in alot of goals as well. this may sound strange but i reckon we should of had bid for viduka, very underated and pretty much does what this system requires. all we need is a striker of that mould and a couple of wingers just in case kewell and co break down again. we have almost got the premiership winning squad all we need is a little more tweaking and we r set. YNWA

[stmichael]

Going back to my point, we desperately need a goalscorer unless we manage to get in a 'between the lines' attacking midfielder, that clever sort of player who finds openings other people dont, produces that killer ball every so often and knows how to score quite a few aswell. Garcia could be the man to do this, if he didn't give the ball away 50% of the time and managed to stay in form for league games aswell as Euro games. In this regard, Tevez is the missing link. I honest think Kuyt and Crouch would score an extra 10 goals between them if he was in our team.

You can only get away with mediocre strikers if you're going to get 30 goals or so from midfield, and Stevie apart, we don't have a regular goal-scoring midfielder.And thats were the problem is! People are getting a bit hung up on us signing a 20 goal a season striker. When if you look at the stats, its the midfield who have been a most limp when it comes to putting the ball in the net.

Also, on the rotation issue, I never thought that Rafa rotated things as much as everyone made out. There was a core of 8 (back 5, Stevie, Xabi, Dirk) who played pretty much every time, with just the 3rd midfield position/LW/2nd striker positions being fiddled with constantly (and with injuries and players not hitting form who can blame him). Assuming we played 4-4-2 that is.

[bigmick]

Also, on the rotation issue, I never thought that Rafa rotated things as much as everyone made out.

Didn't we go ninety nine games without playing the same team twice? I've said a couple of times, I'd like to see Man Utd or Chelsea rotate as much as we do and still mount a title challenge. They couldn't because it's impossible. You either play your best players, together, in their best positions in almost all of the matches or you don't. Up to now under Rafa, we don't. Or at least we don't until we have had a desperate start and we need to string a few results togehter to avoid being mid-table.

Funnily enough, silly over rotation goes out of the window then. We play broadly our best team in every game. All I'm asking, all I wish for and have been doing so for three years is this, lets play our best team at the start of the season until such time as players become fatigued or start to lose form. Then, lets bring a new player or two in and tell him "play really well mate and you're the man in posession. You'll keep the shirt".

If we really are not as good as Chelsea, or Man Utd or both lets see how close we could get if we gave ourselves a chance. Just say for instance Rafa said before the season started that he was going to drastically reduce the level of his tinkering with the team and formation. Do you think that Mourinho and Ferguson would think a) Fantastic! that means their players will be more tired and more likely to get injured, or b) Oh feck! that means Liverpool will undoubtedly finish closer at the end of the day. I wonder.

It amazes me when people say on here that "the trouble is that our first team is really good, but the squad players aren't really up to it so when Rafa rotates the players, those that come in just aren't good enough". Here's an idea then, don't rotate 'em every fecking week     

[account deleted by request]

Rafa spent £26million buying new players last season, do you think he shouldn't have given them a chance? If you look at the players he rotated it was mainly the new players as he gradually introduced Aurelio, Gonzales, Pennant, who all unfortunately underperformed early in the season, with Bellamy and Kuyt as seemingly his preferred partnership (even though Crouch was the form player).

I actually believe Rafa rotates too much, but I do still believe in rotation. I agree that he should have tried to get a settled side and introduce changes gradually, but with the team playing poorly and our new players struggling, changes were needed, the problem was when he made changes the players he brought in struggled as well.

Everyone expected Gonzales to be a star after the build up he got, would you have been happy if he wasn't selected till after Christmas, all in the name of a settled team?  I am sure Rafa expected much more from our new players than we got ,hence why Gonzales and Bellamy are expected to be moved on and Pennant has only saved himself by his performances since Christmas.

[redtrader74]

Going back to my point, we desperately need a goalscorer unless we manage to get in a 'between the lines' attacking midfielder, that clever sort of player who finds openings other people dont, produces that killer ball every so often and knows how to score quite a few aswell. Garcia could be the man to do this, if he didn't give the ball away 50% of the time and managed to stay in form for league games aswell as Euro games. In this regard, Tevez is the missing link. I honest think Kuyt and Crouch would score an extra 10 goals between them if he was in our team.

You can only get away with mediocre strikers if you're going to get 30 goals or so from midfield, and Stevie apart, we don't have a regular goal-scoring midfielder.And thats were the problem is! People are getting a bit hung up on us signing a 20 goal a season striker. When if you look at the stats, its the midfield who have been a most limp when it comes to putting the ball in the net.

Also, on the rotation issue, I never thought that Rafa rotated things as much as everyone made out. There was a core of 8 (back 5, Stevie, Xabi, Dirk) who played pretty much every time, with just the 3rd midfield position/LW/2nd striker positions being fiddled with constantly (and with injuries and players not hitting form who can blame him). Assuming we played 4-4-2 that is.

Where have you been on the recent rotation discussions ?
I am in total agreement there, a lot of people go on about mass rotation, but in all the important games, bar 1-2 players we could all name the sides, the  only occasions of heavy rotation in the league have been before/ after a CL game, and mostly once the chance of the title was gone.

Given a summer of no big signings bar one, for me that one would be Tevez, him or anyone else in that mould, not that i can think of another atm. I don't even think it would necessarily be his goals that would propel us towards the title, more the panic he would cause the oppo, the space he would create for the other forwards and the link between the forward line and midfield. The mere prescence of a player like that in our side would put the opponents on the back foot from the start. Personally  i think he has been very impressive considering the circumstances, from another Country, can't speak the language, in a relagation side, playing with Sh!te who hardly passed to him in his first 3 months, he finally saved them. I'm just not sure that we are willing to spend the 20m+ it will take to get him.

Right now our side is pretty good, if, i know, Kewell stays relatively fit, he would provide the service for Kuyt and Crouch to increase their goal tally and his added pace would again push the oppos back.

Yes they havent been as good in the few years before last season, mainly due to Chelsea's spending power

Manu won the league due a period of heavy injuries to chelsea, thats all. They played the same this season as the last few, chelseas heavy spending had nothing to do with the way they played. Also without Ronaldo they would not have won the league, imo, he was the biggest influence on their side. Its for that reason i believe we are only one top player away from winning it ourselves. Tevez plus a couple of decent additions and with a bit of luck no.19 beckons.

[redtrader74]

Didn't we go ninety nine games without playing the same team twice?

True, as is true our record breaking and record equalling runs of clean sheets, and wins had teams that were never the same twice, as was the CL win, and the run to the final this year. Fair evidence that rotation can work.
I agree with Saint, the players let him down, they had the chance to claim a place, the new ones weren't up to scratch, maybe poor choice on Rafas part, but he had to play them and against the poorer sides was the time, unfortunatly it didn't work that time.

[GRAHAM01]

It amazes me when people say on here that "the trouble is that our first team is really good, but the squad players aren't really up to it so when Rafa rotates the players, those that come in just aren't good enough". Here's an idea then, don't rotate 'em every fecking week     

have to agree with you big mick i also wish he would play the best team week in week out, yes fine if they have a knock or they are tired then fine switch it round but ones the better players it fit to play again  put him back in

if the player he has put in has made ground on the other then fair play that would mean we have compation for that place which can only help us as a team

[stmichael]

I love a good rotation debate. 

Our defence hardly ever changes. It's upfront where rotation doesn't tend to work, especially with the likes of Bellamy who's the last kind of player who'd benefit from being rotated week in week out.

I don't think Rafa is content with his strikers goalscoring.  If he's happy with their contribution, why look for a new one?  Why sell Bellamy (or Fowler) if he doesn't necessarily rely on them to get lots of goals? Why sign Morientes in the first place, if you know the rotation system you use isn't going to allow him to be prolific? 

IMHO, we need two players to be given the chance to form a partnership (eg Crouch and Bellamy) and another player who can add competition for places, come in when one of them loses form or is injured, or come on as a sub to give us different options (eg Kuyt).  After that, a talented youngster who isn't bothered about playing the odd reserve game or going out on loan until we need him (bit like what Man U have with Rossi or Chelsea with Kalou). 

I can understand Rafa using different players for different situations, but we've had at least six or seven different partnerships upfront last season (if you include the times Garcia or Gerrard played behind a lone forward), and thats just too many changes to expect the consistancy of the likes Drogba, Henry, Van Nistelrooy etc from our players.  Crouch aside, every one of them performed better before they came here, because they were rarely out of their club's starting 11.

Our strikers just don't have regular football (except Kuyt,but in the wrong position). Crouch scores 2 goals in 1 game and than ends up on the bench the following week. Would Drogba have hit the heights he did if he was benched for one every three games?

[puroresu]

I think away from home rafa has to be prepared to take the shackles off.  We are far to cautious in many away games and its  like we are trying to nick it 1-0. We dont need to fear anyone in this league and should not be changing our system 10 mins in v Bolton to a more defensive formation.  Thats crazy.

[Stu.Murph]

I think away from home rafa has to be prepared to take the shackles off.  We are far to cautious in many away games and its  like we are trying to nick it 1-0. We dont need to fear anyone in this league and should not be changing our system 10 mins in v Bolton to a more defensive formation.  Thats crazy.

I know yes, we are the mighty Liverpool FC and should not change for anyone.

We should make everyone fear us and not worry about what the opposition does. We should always play our own game.

It doesn't matter if they have pacey strikers, we should still defend a high line because we're Liverpool. Also it doesn't matter if we attack other teams strong points and weak points because we're Liverpool, and thats what matters.

Being Liverpool will win us games, not good tactical play.

[Bad Bob]

Also, on the rotation issue, I never thought that Rafa rotated things as much as everyone made out.

Didn't we go ninety nine games without playing the same team twice? I've said a couple of times, I'd like to see Man Utd or Chelsea rotate as much as we do and still mount a title challenge. They couldn't because it's impossible. You either play your best players, together, in their best positions in almost all of the matches or you don't. Up to now under Rafa, we don't. Or at least we don't until we have had a desperate start and we need to string a few results togehter to avoid being mid-table.

Funnily enough, silly over rotation goes out of the window then. We play broadly our best team in every game. All I'm asking, all I wish for and have been doing so for three years is this, lets play our best team at the start of the season until such time as players become fatigued or start to lose form. Then, lets bring a new player or two in and tell him "play really well mate and you're the man in posession. You'll keep the shirt".

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on here, mate, as I distinctly remember a lovely, long-winded, forum wide debate at the start of last season about just what was our "best team."  And, while certain players were nailed on to be in the starting 11, there was a lot of debate over other players and--surprise, surprise--those were the players being rotated most often.

So, let's cast our minds back to August 2006 and try and recall what might have been our best 11 at the time.  Well, if you're basing it on the previous season (which was a pretty good one for us in the league) you'd almost certainly line up like this:

                Crouch   Fowler

Kewell       Sissoko    Alonso     Gerrard

Riise        Hyypia    Carragher     Finnan

                      Reina

But, Saint's point about new signings is a good one.  At the start of the season we'd just signed Bellamy and were about to sign Kuyt.  Were we really going to sit them both down to play a rather lead-footed Crouch and Fowler combination?  The same is true of Pennant and Gonzales.  We'd been talking all year about a need for out-and-out wingers who could put balls into the box.  We seemed to go out and get two so surely they needed to play sometime?  So, our best team starts to look like this:

                Crouch   Fowler
               (Kuyt)    (Bellamy)

Kewell       Sissoko    Alonso     Gerrard
(Gonzo)     (Gerrard)               (Pennant)

Riise        Hyypia    Carragher     Finnan

                      Reina

Now then, what about the injuries that hit us straight away?  Kewell was already crocked so there's one key player gone.  Finnan missed the Sheffield United match due to injury and we lost both Riise and Carragher for a few weeks in the first half of that game.  Sissoko was out for the West Ham game, as well.  Suddenly, our squad's a mess during the crucial opening weeks of the season (and that's not even mentioning the effects of the international matches played on Aug. 16th, Sept. 2nd and Sept. 6th):

                Crouch   Fowler
               (Kuyt)    (Bellamy)

Garcia       Sissoko    Alonso     Gerrard
(Gonzo)     (Gerrard)               (Pennant)
(Zenden)

Aurelio        Hyypia       Agger        Finnan
                                            (Kromkamp)
                      Reina


Throw that all together, mix in some poor form from the likes of Alonso, Reina, Finnan (post-injury), Carragher (post-injury), Riise (post-injury), Gonzales, Bellamy and Pennant, some good form from the likes of Agger and Kuyt, and suddenly picking our best 11 becomes a real headache.  Let's give it a try:

               Kuyt    Bellamy/Crouch

Garcia          Sissoko    Alonso          Gerrard
(Riise)         (Gerrard)                     (Pennant)
(Gonzales)
(Aurelio)
(Zenden)
(the tea lady?)

Riise            Agger       Carragher       Finnan
(Aurelio)      (Hyypia)

                         Reina

So, given that mess, what does Rafa do?  Well, he generally fields Reina, Finnan and Carragher in their preferred positions every game.  He rotated Agger and Hyypia for a while but soon settled on the Dane as his starting CB.  At LB he preferred Riise but, given the mess at LM, he had to tinker a bit there.  At CM he played Sissoko (one of our few stand-out performers before his Nov. injury) and Alonso for the most part, with Gerrard and Zenden slotting in on occasion.  At RM, Pennant's indifferent form led to Gerrard getting a fair few games out there--a role he'd proven he can play very effectively.  Up top, Kuyt hit the ground running and was virtually nailed on to start while Crouch and Bellamy rotated.  At LM it was anyone's guess who would play because there were problems with every option tried there.

My point is that, Rafa certainly didn't have access to a clear-cut Best 11 in the opening weeks of the season and thus was forced to rotate from game to game.  Did he do this flawlessly?  Well no.  Bringing Zenden in at CM ahead of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is never a recipe for success.  Rafa should have recognized the gulf in class there.  Likewise, rotating Crouch and Bellamy did neither any good.  Perhaps sitting Bellamy in favour of Crouch during the big man's purple patch would have made more sense but, of course, then we would have had a stroppy little Welshman on our hands and I'm sure Rafa wanted to keep faith with Bellamy while he struggled to get going (like he did with Crouch and Morientes the season before). 

As for the rest, I find it difficult to argue too much with his rotation policy.  Gradually replacing Hyypia with Agger seems to have worked a treat, despite a few bad days at the office for the back 5 as injuries and the bedding in period played out.  Pennant was not worthy of the starting berth for much of the first half of the season so starting Gerrard at RM ahead of him was the right move.  On the left, even with the benefit of hindsight, I find it hard to pick one player who deserved an unbroken run of games.  Perhaps Riise, with Aurelio at LB but, of course, Aurelio kept getting injured too.  And, of course, we lost Garcia before too long (and Zenden too, as it turns out), reducing our options severely on that flank.  As with Nunez in 2005, Gonzales got games that he probably had no business getting had there been other options available.

Bottom line, mate, I respect your oft-repeated ( ) point about over-rotation a great deal but let's not pretend that a "Best 11" was patently obvious to every supporter and his dog at the beginning of last season.  There were several tough choices to make regarding several key positions on the pitch virtually every game for the first few months of the season.  Put in Rafa's shoes, I doubt any of us could have picked a "Best 11" with confidence and stuck with it through thick and thin.

[puroresu]

I think away from home rafa has to be prepared to take the shackles off.  We are far to cautious in many away games and its  like we are trying to nick it 1-0. We dont need to fear anyone in this league and should not be changing our system 10 mins in v Bolton to a more defensive formation.  Thats crazy.

I know yes, we are the mighty Liverpool FC and should not change for anyone.

We should make everyone fear us and not worry about what the opposition does. We should always play our own game.

It doesn't matter if they have pacey strikers, we should still defend a high line because we're Liverpool. Also it doesn't matter if we attack other teams strong points and weak points because we're Liverpool, and thats what matters.

Being Liverpool will win us games, not good tactical play.

If you think changing the way we play to more a negative attitude v mid table sides is good then your a better man than me.  The reason we drop so many points away from home is down to the lack of intent and attitude of trying to win the game. 

Prime examples last season.  Boro away, Villa away.  Chelsea away who were reduced to 10 men yet we still didnt pour men forward. Sometimes u just have to believe in your players ability. 

Our lack of goals is a problem.  its now just down to the strikers.  Its also the lack of attacking intent in too many games.

[LFC2007]

Manu won the league due a period of heavy injuries to chelsea, thats all. They played the same this season as the last few, chelseas heavy spending had nothing to do with the way they played. Also without Ronaldo they would not have won the league, imo, he was the biggest influence on their side. Its for that reason i believe we are only one top player away from winning it ourselves. Tevez plus a couple of decent additions and with a bit of luck no.19 beckons.

I disagree with you when you say manure won the league playing in much a similar way to the three seasons previous to that.

You cite Ronaldo as being the most influential player in their success last season. He was nowhere near as developed in terms of his final ball and decision making before last season, he also developed physically that gave him a much more of a powerful edge when running with the ball.

The difference was palpable, Scholes was fully fit, Giggs was on top form and Vidic struck a partnership in central defence that was rock solid for most of the season. All in all the blend and development of the side was far more advanced than in the previous three seasons.