Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

the key is the central spine... 2 CB's, 2 CM's and 2 strikers... need to form a good partner ship with each other...

[redtrader74]

Manu won the league due a period of heavy injuries to chelsea, thats all. They played the same this season as the last few, chelseas heavy spending had nothing to do with the way they played. Also without Ronaldo they would not have won the league, imo, he was the biggest influence on their side. Its for that reason i believe we are only one top player away from winning it ourselves. Tevez plus a couple of decent additions and with a bit of luck no.19 beckons.

I disagree with you when you say manure won the league playing in much a similar way to the three seasons previous to that.

You cite Ronaldo as being the most influential player in their success last season. He was nowhere near as developed in terms of his final ball and decision making before last season, he also developed physically that gave him a much more of a powerful edge when running with the ball.

The difference was palpable, Scholes was fully fit, Giggs was on top form and Vidic struck a partnership in central defence that was rock solid for most of the season. All in all the blend and development of the side was far more advanced than in the previous three seasons.

It was in reply to a different question, the way they played was the same, their methods were pretty much the same. Obviously they played better than their previous season, they amassed more points. I still maintain without the massive injuries to chelski all concentrated at one period, no title for manu.

[LFC2007]

My point is that, Rafa certainly didn't have access to a clear-cut Best 11 in the opening weeks of the season and thus was forced to rotate from game to game.  Did he do this flawlessly?  Well no.  Bringing Zenden in at CM ahead of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is never a recipe for success.  Rafa should have recognized the gulf in class there.  Likewise, rotating Crouch and Bellamy did neither any good.  Perhaps sitting Bellamy in favour of Crouch during the big man's purple patch would have made more sense but, of course, then we would have had a stroppy little Welshman on our hands and I'm sure Rafa wanted to keep faith with Bellamy while he struggled to get going (like he did with Crouch and Morientes the season before). 

As for the rest, I find it difficult to argue too much with his rotation policy.  Gradually replacing Hyypia with Agger seems to have worked a treat, despite a few bad days at the office for the back 5 as injuries and the bedding in period played out.  Pennant was not worthy of the starting berth for much of the first half of the season so starting Gerrard at RM ahead of him was the right move.  On the left, even with the benefit of hindsight, I find it hard to pick one player who deserved an unbroken run of games.  Perhaps Riise, with Aurelio at LB but, of course, Aurelio kept getting injured too.  And, of course, we lost Garcia before too long (and Zenden too, as it turns out), reducing our options severely on that flank.  As with Nunez in 2005, Gonzales got games that he probably had no business getting had there been other options available.

I've made a similar point before Bad Bob, particularly about our left side. There were areas where over-rotation appeared to be a poor decision - Crouch being the main example, and also zenden slotting in at CM occasionally appeared flawed. Pennant never accustomised to the right side early on and lacked discipline in terms of tracking back. From that point of view I don't blame Rafa for starting Gerrard on the rigth side, especially away from home when tactical discipline is required even more so.

[LFC2007]

Manu won the league due a period of heavy injuries to chelsea, thats all. They played the same this season as the last few, chelseas heavy spending had nothing to do with the way they played. Also without Ronaldo they would not have won the league, imo, he was the biggest influence on their side. Its for that reason i believe we are only one top player away from winning it ourselves. Tevez plus a couple of decent additions and with a bit of luck no.19 beckons.

I disagree with you when you say manure won the league playing in much a similar way to the three seasons previous to that.

You cite Ronaldo as being the most influential player in their success last season. He was nowhere near as developed in terms of his final ball and decision making before last season, he also developed physically that gave him a much more of a powerful edge when running with the ball.

The difference was palpable, Scholes was fully fit, Giggs was on top form and Vidic struck a partnership in central defence that was rock solid for most of the season. All in all the blend and development of the side was far more advanced than in the previous three seasons.

It was in reply to a different question, the way they played was the same, their methods were pretty much the same. Obviously they played better than their previous season, they amassed more points. I still maintain without the massive injuries to chelski all concentrated at one period, no title for manu.

Did a fit and on form Scholes not alter the way in which they play?, I'd say it gave them a cutting edge that they lacked in the previous season. The loss of Van nistelrooy also significantly altered the way they played to more of a reliance on the midfielders interchanging and getting forward to supply goals - e.g. Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes.

[Bad Bob]

My point is that, Rafa certainly didn't have access to a clear-cut Best 11 in the opening weeks of the season and thus was forced to rotate from game to game.  Did he do this flawlessly?  Well no.  Bringing Zenden in at CM ahead of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is never a recipe for success.  Rafa should have recognized the gulf in class there.  Likewise, rotating Crouch and Bellamy did neither any good.  Perhaps sitting Bellamy in favour of Crouch during the big man's purple patch would have made more sense but, of course, then we would have had a stroppy little Welshman on our hands and I'm sure Rafa wanted to keep faith with Bellamy while he struggled to get going (like he did with Crouch and Morientes the season before). 

As for the rest, I find it difficult to argue too much with his rotation policy.  Gradually replacing Hyypia with Agger seems to have worked a treat, despite a few bad days at the office for the back 5 as injuries and the bedding in period played out.  Pennant was not worthy of the starting berth for much of the first half of the season so starting Gerrard at RM ahead of him was the right move.  On the left, even with the benefit of hindsight, I find it hard to pick one player who deserved an unbroken run of games.  Perhaps Riise, with Aurelio at LB but, of course, Aurelio kept getting injured too.  And, of course, we lost Garcia before too long (and Zenden too, as it turns out), reducing our options severely on that flank.  As with Nunez in 2005, Gonzales got games that he probably had no business getting had there been other options available.

I've made a similar point before Bad Bob, particularly about our left side. There were areas where over-rotation appeared to be a poor decision - Crouch being the main example, and also zenden slotting in at CM occasionally appeared flawed. Pennant never accustomised to the right side early on and lacked discipline in terms of tracking back. From that point of view I don't blame Rafa for starting Gerrard on the rigth side, especially away from home when tactical discipline is required even more so.

Yes, I remember the Pennant vs. Gerrard at RM debate quite clearly for the first few months of the season.  People who wanted to see Gerrard in a CM role made a compelling case but, for me, it came down to playing Sissoko (who really was one of our best performers in the first 2 months of the season) vs. playing Pennant (who was pretty rubbish until the festive season).  Given that Pennant looked so much out of his depth I was much more confident with Gerrard on the right and Alonso and Sissoko in the middle.  As for the left side, did anyone have a truly good game for us out there last season?  I can't remember any stand-out performances with the possible exception of Riise vs. Barca at the Camp Nou. 

[Sabre]

I think away from home rafa has to be prepared to take the shackles off.  We are far to cautious in many away games and its  like we are trying to nick it 1-0. We dont need to fear anyone in this league and should not be changing our system 10 mins in v Bolton to a more defensive formation.  Thats crazy.

I know yes, we are the mighty Liverpool FC and should not change for anyone.

We should make everyone fear us and not worry about what the opposition does. We should always play our own game.

It doesn't matter if they have pacey strikers, we should still defend a high line because we're Liverpool. Also it doesn't matter if we attack other teams strong points and weak points because we're Liverpool, and thats what matters.

Being Liverpool will win us games, not good tactical play.

Liverpool was Liverpool aswell in the nineties, mate.

Liverpool's legend and history make possible things like coming back from three goals against Milan AC, but to have continuous success and winning leagues and cups, you need that passion, and things well done aswell.

I have to read thoroughly (looking a couple of words in the dic) this thread, and then I'll join it if I have something to add.

[JC_81]

Have to side with Mick in terms of the whole squad rotation debate.  I do believe we'd have been closer to the top this season with a little less rotation, but I also accept that with the amount of games we had to play this season going all the way in the CL again, a certain amount of rotation is required.

Also a fair point by Bob in that we really didn't know our best 11 at the start of last season with 2 new strikers and 2 new wingers along with Aurelio and a relatively new centre half in Agger all coming into the fold.  The bottom line is that the new players had to be played to get them bedded in and realistically things weren't going to click overnight with so many new players signing last summer.  I wasn't surprised that we started slowly.  Some of Rafa's rotation was justified imo, but some was unnecessary.  When Crouch was the form striker in the country he was all of a sudden benched for several weeks on the trot.  The left side was a disaster all season long, Rafa couldn't make his mind up.  Gerrard played in every position across the midfield instead of being allowed to settle in one - that was my biggest selection gripe last season.

It's obvious that over-rotation and lack of quality in certain areas (up front and wide midfield) contributed to our poor league form.  But there are other things that people forget.  The fixture list was a joke, pitting us away to the other top 4 sides, Everton and Bolton early on.  That's tough on any side, especially one with a lot of new signings trying to settle.  On top of that indifferent form of our better players unhinged us.  Carra and Reina started the season slowly, Alonso had an underwhelming season overall and Gerrard lacked the end product of the season before.  Injury robbed us of Kewell for the whole season and Garcia for a large chunk - their replacements weren't up to it.

I have to laugh when people post our best 11 for next season and have Kewell in it.  Quality player, but he's a player who's a bonus when he's fit, not one to rely upon.

If we buy a lot of players this summer we'll suffer again in the early season.  That's why I advocate buying only 2 or 3 quality players maximum.  At least a quality goalscorer as a minimum.  We have a very solid, hard to beat side, but when you compare us to United, who unfortunately are the benchmark at the moment, we don't have anywhere near their goal threat.

[Bad Bob]

Have to side with Mick in terms of the whole squad rotation debate.  I do believe we'd have been closer to the top this season with a little less rotation, but I also accept that with the amount of games we had to play this season going all the way in the CL again, a certain amount of rotation is required.

Also a fair point by Bob in that we really didn't know our best 11 at the start of last season with 2 new strikers and 2 new wingers along with Aurelio and a relatively new centre half in Agger all coming into the fold.  The bottom line is that the new players had to be played to get them bedded in and realistically things weren't going to click overnight with so many new players signing last summer.  I wasn't surprised that we started slowly.  Some of Rafa's rotation was justified imo, but some was unnecessary.  When Crouch was the form striker in the country he was all of a sudden benched for several weeks on the trot.  The left side was a disaster all season long, Rafa couldn't make his mind up.  Gerrard played in every position across the midfield instead of being allowed to settle in one - that was my biggest selection gripe last season.

It's obvious that over-rotation and lack of quality in certain areas (up front and wide midfield) contributed to our poor league form.  But there are other things that people forget.  The fixture list was a joke, pitting us away to the other top 4 sides, Everton and Bolton early on.  That's tough on any side, especially one with a lot of new signings trying to settle.  On top of that indifferent form of our better players unhinged us.  Carra and Reina started the season slowly, Alonso had an underwhelming season overall and Gerrard lacked the end product of the season before.  Injury robbed us of Kewell for the whole season and Garcia for a large chunk - their replacements weren't up to it.

I have to laugh when people post our best 11 for next season and have Kewell in it.  Quality player, but he's a player who's a bonus when he's fit, not one to rely upon.

If we buy a lot of players this summer we'll suffer again in the early season.  That's why I advocate buying only 2 or 3 quality players maximum.  At least a quality goalscorer as a minimum.  We have a very solid, hard to beat side, but when you compare us to United, who unfortunately are the benchmark at the moment, we don't have anywhere near their goal threat.

Nice to see you back, John, and I definitely agree that the fixture list was not kind.  Some call it an empty excuse but, like it or not, it played it's part.  Thankfully, our start this season looks more manageable--and that includes playing Chelsea for our first home game.  Tell you what...the Kop will be well up for it and that should help inspire the lads!

BTW, John, I still remember you coming on early into last season and wondering if our left side was as strong as we thought.  Some people thought you were living in cloud cookoo land given the number of options we had.  Turns out, you were spot on.

[JC_81]

BTW, John, I still remember you coming on early into last season and wondering if our left side was as strong as we thought.  Some people thought you were living in cloud cookoo land given the number of options we had.  Turns out, you were spot on.

Don't often get predictions right, so cheers for that and I'll be milking it for all it's worth!

[Bad Bob]

BTW, John, I still remember you coming on early into last season and wondering if our left side was as strong as we thought.  Some people thought you were living in cloud cookoo land given the number of options we had.  Turns out, you were spot on.

Don't often get predictions right, so cheers for that and I'll be milking it for all it's worth!

Milk away, mate, but you need to take a page from Big Mick's book in future.  Putting "I know it's early but..." in front of the prediction makes you look quite sage.   

[bigmick]

Sheesh yet another poster has seen through my cunning ruse

[bigmick]

On the question of rotation and the fixture list being very difficult at the start of the season, I'm in agreement we had a desperately difficult opening period. Were it the case that the fixtures were drawn out of a hat every week so we had no way of knowing who we were going to play from one week to the next, I would have every sympathy with Rafa's plight. That though is not the case of course. The fixture list came out long before the season started and we had a long time to look at it and think "fecking hell, we could be out of it by October" before a ball was kicked.

I have to ask, why then did we mass rotate on a ridiculous level in pre-season,, including in the Charity Shield (where us winning with a much weakened and rotated team was in retrospect the worst thing that could have happened) and in the Champions League qualifier? Why were we making six and seven changes a game, and why did we go into the Sheffield United Away game with a severely rotated line-up when we knew full well it was the ONLY relatively easy game we had in the opening period? It was absolutely ridiculous, a massive misjudgement and it cost us any chance we had (some I know maintain that we had no chance in the first place but I disagree) of challenging for the title.

I think we have a great manager who has done fantastic things at the club, but pretending that he didn't make a massive error at the start of the last three seasons, and particularly last season is simply delusional. People talk about Rafa being stubborn, "Ah he'll mass rotate again, you'll see". Well I'll repeat myself yet again here, you will not win the English Premier League by mass rotating the team.

One last thing. I said after the shambvles at Bramhall Lane last season, that I could see a situation looking at the fixture list whereby we could be in real trouble given our coming away fixtures and the fact we had zero momentum due to selectioral meddling. I got derided by some "the seasons not over after one game, get a grip blah blah). Four weeks later it all went quiet over there, we were out of the title race.

Here's my prediction for this season. If we mass rotate on the way into the game against Villa, then perish the thought don't pick a team which is full of first team players (no Lee Peltiers, Danny Guthries, Voronins etc etc) playing in their proper positions (no Gerrards on the left or such nonsense) and no formational p!ssing about (4-5-1's or anything silly) and get beat, by the time we play Chelsea at Home in our second game, we are going to be under some kind of pressure. Lose there as well and we won't be exactly out of it, but we won't be exactly in it either.

All I'm asking is that we give ourselves a chance.

[Sabre]

I have to ask, why then did we mass rotate on a ridiculous level in pre-season,, including in the Charity Shield (where us winning with a much weakened and rotated team was in retrospect the worst thing that could have happened) and in the Champions League qualifier? Why were we making six and seven changes a game, and why did we go into the Sheffield United Away game with a severely rotated line-up when we knew full well it was the ONLY relatively easy game we had in the opening period? It was absolutely ridiculous, a massive misjudgement and it cost us any chance we had (some I know maintain that we had no chance in the first place but I disagree) of challenging for the title.

I think it would be "random" over-rotation, and a mistake if it was done for no reason.

So the question is, did Rafa do that the previous season, and the season before, in order to say it's a pattern in his decissions at the start?

If not, we have to look other reasons. Some of which already have been mentioned by BadBob and Redtrader, IIRC: Some injuries in the back 4, some players off form due to summer competitions, and some players being newbies in the team.

My prediction is that that circunstances won't repeat next year, thus, no mass rotation will happen, thus, everybody will be happy, and thus, we'll have a chance.

[JC_81]

On the question of rotation and the fixture list being very difficult at the start of the season, I'm in agreement we had a desperately difficult opening period. Were it the case that the fixtures were drawn out of a hat every week so we had no way of knowing who we were going to play from one week to the next, I would have every sympathy with Rafa's plight. That though is not the case of course. The fixture list came out long before the season started and we had a long time to look at it and think "fecking hell, we could be out of it by October" before a ball was kicked.

I have to ask, why then did we mass rotate on a ridiculous level in pre-season,, including in the Charity Shield (where us winning with a much weakened and rotated team was in retrospect the worst thing that could have happened) and in the Champions League qualifier? Why were we making six and seven changes a game, and why did we go into the Sheffield United Away game with a severely rotated line-up when we knew full well it was the ONLY relatively easy game we had in the opening period? It was absolutely ridiculous, a massive misjudgement and it cost us any chance we had (some I know maintain that we had no chance in the first place but I disagree) of challenging for the title.

I think we have a great manager who has done fantastic things at the club, but pretending that he didn't make a massive error at the start of the last three seasons, and particularly last season is simply delusional. People talk about Rafa being stubborn, "Ah he'll mass rotate again, you'll see". Well I'll repeat myself yet again here, you will not win the English Premier League by mass rotating the team.

One last thing. I said after the shambvles at Bramhall Lane last season, that I could see a situation looking at the fixture list whereby we could be in real trouble given our coming away fixtures and the fact we had zero momentum due to selectioral meddling. I got derided by some "the seasons not over after one game, get a grip blah blah). Four weeks later it all went quiet over there, we were out of the title race.

Here's my prediction for this season. If we mass rotate on the way into the game against Villa, then perish the thought don't pick a team which is full of first team players (no Lee Peltiers, Danny Guthries, Voronins etc etc) playing in their proper positions (no Gerrards on the left or such nonsense) and no formational p!ssing about (4-5-1's or anything silly) and get beat, by the time we play Chelsea at Home in our second game, we are going to be under some kind of pressure. Lose there as well and we won't be exactly out of it, but we won't be exactly in it either.

All I'm asking is that we give ourselves a chance.

I suppose the only half-excuse you could give Benitez for mass-rotation at the start of last season is that we had a lot of players coming back from a world cup and he didn't want to over-use them early season.  Still, I'm clutching at straws there, the selection at Sheff Utd was a farce.  The other big clubs had plenty coming back from the WC and didn't rotate like we did.

As for this season, put simply, if we have a similar league campaign to the last then it won't just be the pressure on us to keep up with the leaders that will be the main concern, it will be the mounting pressure on Benitez himself.  To an extent the CL run papered over the cracks last season and shielded him from any abuse.  If we finish next season scraping into the CL after substantial investment this summer, Benitez will be under severe pressure to keep his job, make no mistake.  Whatever way you look at it this is a massive season for LFC and for Benitez.

[LFC2007]

All I'm asking is that we give ourselves a chance.

I get the slight impression that you harbour some hope that Rafa might just be reading this!