Consistency & Balance

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Kenny Kan » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:54 pm

I've already got one eye on next season (long term viewer me) merely because we've done all we can this season and personally I see the remaining (11?) fixtures a formality.

Let's be candid here, we all knew this season was going to have it's ups and downs. Next season to but hopefully not on the scale we've seen this year and hopefully with a side that will go further in all domestic cup comps and the league.

As a team (not talking of individual players here, other posters can broaden talk in discussion of individuals needed etc), Rodgers needs IMO to address two core issues that have hampered us this season.

Consistency Arguably the harder task for a manager to rectify because our inconsistency has most of the time come down to individual errors and lapses in concentration. A theory of why inconsistency could have surfaced may lead us into the talk of balance and the lack of cover our defense have been given with a three man midfield, and an open game plan. Something recent Liverpool defenses haven't been accustomed to. However, it certainly has been the case never the less that numerous individual errors have cost us a myriad of points. How a manager rectifys these isn't so easy IMO, yes, he can drop a defender every now and again on a frequent basis. Skertel in, Skertel out, Enrique in, Enrique out but this IMO is detrimental to the understanding and cohesiveness that defenses need to become miserly. This is not to say I don't appreciate the efforts Carragher has done but I don't know if it's right to drop a player/defender after a clanger - will Rodgers drop Carra after his back pass to HulK  :suspect: . Never the less consistency needs not only to be found fundamentally throughout the defense but all over the pitch. Killing teams off etc etc. This may look the easier of the consistencys to resolve now with the signing of Sturridge, in form Suarez and Coutinhio. The Achilles is the defense and we need to go into next season with this as one of two key priorities to sort out in the summer and beyond.

Balance Big problem IMO. One that I think lends itself to our consistency issue. The Rodgers side (All IMHOOC) looks heavily geared towards an attack type game plan, which is exciting! However, I think there is a flip side to this, and that is that it often leaves our defense overexposed with many gaps in midfield. It also is attributed to the style of players Rodgers likes to use/buy, the 'more' flairy type. Where Rafa would buy a workhorse in Kuyt, Rodgers would opt for a typical Brazillian in Coutinhio (generally speaking). Rafa's type of players would do an effective job in midfield and defense, perhaps more so than in their primary position like Kuyt  :D . With Rodgers it's the other way round and this is why we look geared up in an attack minded formation - although Downing is fast becoming our 'worker' up and down the flanks and to be fair he, I believe, recently has helped (in his own way) to balance this top heavy outfit out.

I still think the center of midfield is an issue. Personally, and depending on how long Gerrard can last, I'd look for a beast in the DM position, one who's athletic, powerful and has a bit of game intelligence, either to help Lucas or Gerrard. Lucas for me has almost reverted to type, although he did have a good game against Zenit, I don't think he's able to hold the fort on his own and he needs assistance if not a replacement - preferably the former. Rodgers IMO hasn't got this down pat and I didn't see enough of his Swansea team to be able to tell whether he has the vision to address this (that's even if he thinks it is an issue!). We look like a side who says, you score 2 and we'll score 3 to beat you. Rather than a team who is able to completely shut teams out for 90 mins and do the biz up the other end.

I reckon they're our TEAM issues which could be aided by possible signings and what not. I don't watch any other footie so I don't know who is out there that could reasonably help us out. But fundamentally Rodgers should/could still work on these issues with the players he's got.

What say you?
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Postby tubby » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:57 pm

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Postby kazza » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:36 pm

Teams that play the "Barcelona way" never win the league unless of course they are Barcelona. It is all well and good to say we want to play attacking football and be pleasing on the eye to watch but generally those teams do not win the league, they can be good cup teams but usually not league winning teams. To be a league winning team you have to have the best defence as that is what wins leagues (generally speaking of course).

I think that Barcelona is a freak and not the model that any team should copy unless they have outstanding players that can make the system work. Attacking teams may become fan favourites but they don't usually win the league. Even the Scum iwith their best team ('99) was a counter-attacking team built around a very solid defence (and a great team of refs  :nod  ). They never employed an attacking philosiphy but rather counter-attacked. same for the Arsenal team that went undefeated.

To win the league you have to have a great defence and we do not, and it does not seem to be a priority. We are much more exciting than for a long time but our chances of winning the league with this system are slimmer.
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Postby LFC1990 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:03 pm

You need to look at the side and really think who could we really replace and become better.

Reina and Carragher i think will leave so straight away we would need to get a goalkeeper.

How many of these can we  realistically replace and become stronger

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel
Enrique
Lucas
Gerrard
Henderson
Suarez
Sturridge
Coutinho

I'D say 1 in Skrtel. There arent many players who will be available to us that are better than we already have in our starting line up.

We need to strenghten in depth

How many of the following could we replace realistically and become stronger?

Jones
Wisdom
Coates
Kelly
Robinson
Allen
Shelvey
Suso
Downing
Borini
Sterling.

Taking out Wisdom, Suso and Sterling as they are the future. Theres not much about the rest maybe apart from downing and Kelly who really we could have better.

We paid 8m for Borini Chelsea paid around 7 for BA
We paid 15? for Allen  Diame is available from west ham for 3.5
Jones im not sure what we paid but Stoke bought Butland for 3.5

Are starting 11 is one of the strongest in the league. Our squad in depth very weak.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:47 pm

i think ashley williams is a cert to come in,  i was reading over on rawk that apparently in the torygraph there`s an article with williams in which he says he`s quite pally with luis now and sends him text messages all the time.
wether that makes us stronger i`m not sure, is williams any better than skrtel? is a CB pairing of agger and williams good enough to get us into the top 4 or to propel us to even bigger prizes?
i think rodgers see`s williams as a strong character and we probably do lack in that area but personally i think we need a different type of CB, i think we need an aerially dominant center half.
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Postby ethanr » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:29 pm

Sometimes you just don't know why a problem exists.  I'm not sure we are all that leaky on defense.  We have 10 clean sheets, which is second only to manchester city.  We are tied 7th on Goals against, with pretty much everybody in the league ahead of us doing better. We've had a couple really awful performances that have somewhat come out of nowhere, like against Villa and West Brom away.  I honestly feel luck has really gone against us this season.  I'm tired of calling on the refs for their lack of protection against Luis, and the mistakes hey have made, but in honesty it has cost us quite a few points this season.  Then there's the simple mistakes, like Carra's back pass, Skrtel's back pass, Reina deciding to go grab a pie at the wrong time against city, Agger's last 10 minutes against West Brom.  Those mistakes alone cost us the Europa league, and at least 4 points plus whatever we could have done against west from. We've had games where our defense isn't able to keep a clean sheet, and it just happens to be the same game where Luis wasn't playing at his best so our attack couldn't produce anything.  Really an alignment of issues.  We seem to have games where everybody is just fantastic, and then everybody is off.  Yes I suppose you can say that's inconsistency, but at the same time that's how the game works, the difference is other clubs tend to have some players firing, and some not, so they can still win games (story of united's season).  We just have everybody play great where we could  beat anybody, or nobody playing at their best, and it costs us stupid points.

You've got some good points and if we could figure out the formula to get us playing consistent, I honestly don't believe the top 4 would be what we were challenging for anymore, we'd be going for league every season.  I think what we've seen is that Rodger's system can very well work if we can get consistent.  We outplayed last years champions both times this season, and we couldn't have been more screwed in the first United game.  We can play against the best clubs on our day, we just need to always play on our day.
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Postby Penguins » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:55 am

Luck argument again?
Same old story every season we finish midtable.
4 years in a row and it is down to luck every time  :no
We just overvalue the overall quality of the players in the team, end of.
You don't end midtable after 38 games and blame it on luck, refs etc.
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Postby Entourage » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:53 am

The most League games in a row we have won this season is two games, two Premier League wins back to back, thats it?! That isn't good enough for Liverpool FC. It took till September 29th for us to record our first League win, that isn't good enough for Liverpool FC.

Yes we have had some horrible fixture run ins BUT that doesn't mean it should have taken over a month to win our first League game of the Season. We've not been consistent for a number of years in the Premier League, I think it must of been the back end of the 10/11 Season when we last won 5 League games in a row? Again that isn't good enough for Liverpool FC.

The consistency or the balance isn't there with this squad. Not enough players are consistent with their performances, look at the team who played Arsenal and Man City, we all raved about players individual performance's after them games but then the next home game we played them players like Johnson, Enrique, Henderson, Lucas and possibly even Suarez didn't perform. Was the same after we had beaten Southampton at home, fought back to beat West Ham 3-2 away and the next week we go and play terrible and lose 3-1 to Villa at home?

The balance certainly isn't there, you only have to look at the City (H), Everton (A), Arsenal (A) and City (A) games to see this. For spells in these games we were bloody brilliant, 2-0 up away at Everton and Arsenal and in both games within 10 minutes of going 2-0 up, they have fought back and we have surrendered 2 goal leads, City I don't need to go into detail, silly errors have cost us v them twice. We need to find the right balance between in games, whether that is seeing a 10 minute out of a team attacking us or we continue to hammer a team for 10 minutes, it's like we don't know which to do. Another thing is we seem to have only one style of play and seems to be if a team knows how to play against us then we struggle to break them down and have no PLAN B against these teams.
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Postby jacdaniel » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:53 pm

I think that one of the main problems this team has is our mentality.  We're just not winners anymore.   Lets take the game against Zenit as an example.  We go over there and miss a few chances, get beat 2 - 0.  At Anfield we know we still have a chance if we can keep a clean sheet and grab a goal or two. 
Our passing at the back is terrible and eventually Carra makes a horrendous back pass given Zenit the lead and us needing 4 goals.

Now with such a huge task, the pressure is somewhat off, we have nothing to lose right?  So we start playing some fantastic football and pull back 3 goals with 30 minutes left.  All of a sudden there is some expectation that we'll go on to win the match.  Last 20 mins or so pretty much fizzle out... 

Its the same in the league.  As soon as we look like joining the battle for top 4 we turn in a Villa / West Brom type performance. 
As soon as we get in a comfortable position in a "Big game" we start to panic and throw away the lead. 
As soon as we miss a chance you get the feeling its going to be "one of them days".

IMO, our main problems are mentality / confidence issues.  Its Brendan's job to work on that and also the senior players.
I thought the cup runs last year would have helped with this.
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Postby Reg » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:25 pm

Everyones so emotional........ If we're a club hobbled by our recent past how can we shine? Are folks expectations realistic?

Its going to take time to rebuild.  don't want to do a Citeh or Chavski and simply spend 300 million to bring in every tom dick and harry plus a big swinging dick manager - thats not the Liverpool way.

We have to do it the slow and steady route to be sustainable and credibl,we do things the Liverpool way, not the shiney way.
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Postby Reg » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Double post.  :alien:
Last edited by Reg on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:40 pm

Reg » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:32 pm wrote:Everyones so emotional........ If we're a club hobbled by our recent past how can we shine? Are folks expectations realistic?

Its going to take time to rebuild.  don't want to do a Citeh or Chavski and simply spend 300 million to bring in every tom dick and harry plus a big swinging dick manager - thats not the Liverpool way.

We have to do it the slow and steady route to be sustainable and credibl,we do things the Liverpool way, not the shiney way.


We are Liverpool, once mighty and all conquering and although we have been through turbulent times over the last 5 years we have a god given right to be winning every competition we enter or finish in the top 4 at the very least, anything else is unacceptable

We are Liverpool, once mighty and all conquering and although we have been through turbulent times over the last 5 years we have to be patient and lower our expectation for the time being as this will help us eventually reclaim our place at the pinnacle of European football

Choose which one you prefer
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Postby Reg » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:03 am

I agree with paras 1 and 2 but not with 3.

Of course thats what we want but its how we achieve it thats important, it doesn't happen overnight and I don't want to go the way of the Chav's.
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Postby Kenny Kan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:17 am

We are Liverpool, once mighty and all conquering and although we have been through turbulent times over the last 5 years we have a god given right to be winning every competition we enter or finish in the top 4 at the very least, anything else is unacceptable   


Well, when you've got no hope and have used up 23 years of patience in waiting for the league title, expectations change and 4th becomes the target. You may want to decrease Liverpool's aspiration further, declaring 8th is an achievement but most Liverpool fans I know certainly won't.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:48 am

Kenny Kan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:17 am wrote:
We are Liverpool, once mighty and all conquering and although we have been through turbulent times over the last 5 years we have a god given right to be winning every competition we enter or finish in the top 4 at the very least, anything else is unacceptable   


Well, when you've got no hope and have used up 23 years of patience in waiting for the league title, expectations change and 4th becomes the target. You may want to decrease Liverpool's aspiration further, declaring 8th is an achievement but most Liverpool fans I know certainly won't.


Try not to put words in my mouth please
I dont want to decrease aspirations further. My aspirations are to be the force we once were. But Im also a realist and accept that it could be 2 to 3 seasons before we are challenging for top honours on a regular basis
The question is how many others are realists?
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