Liverpool FC Forum

by **A.B.** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:20 pm

Barca Murph wrote:
A.B. wrote:
Barca Murph wrote:
Ronny wrote:I bet Barcelona felt sick when they saw Fabregas explode onto the scene with Arsenal.

Sick? No. Cheated? Most certainly.

Didn't you lot just let another player from your youth system go to Arsenal? Haven't you learned your lesson?

The law in Spain doesn't allow us to offer contracts to youth players at the same time English clubs can. Therefore Arsenal have stolen from under our noses 2 great players, while we were left with our hands tied behind our back

That must be painful?

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:22 pm

The law in Spain doesn't allow us to offer contracts to youth players at the same time English clubs can.

That's not a problem for Barcelona who has the best players of Spain in La Masia, makes them study there, and grabs them from their original places to put them there as if they were livestock.

Few can imagine where Arteta comes from. He's from the same neighbourhood than Xabi Alonso in San Sebastian, but he was a lad he was more promising than Xabi because he developed his body well. Barcelona took him from San Sebastian when he was 14 or 15. In Barcelona he hadn't opportunities so he went to Scotland, then back where he should have been, but we had a twát as a manager and we sold him to Neverton.

Barcelona had never troubles to bring the best players of Europe and Spain to their youth system, no matter if it's via a contract, or offering a new life to the youngster and his parents as he usually does.

by **Ronny** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:22 pm

Sabre, Alonso is not a natural defensive player is he? He loves to come forward, he loves to feel the ball at his feet and score goals, he was no where near as defensive at Real Sociedad as he is now. He has been restricted, something which Fabregas isn't, Fabregas will develop a more positional style to his play when he matures, I can see Fabregas being the Spanish version of Steven Gerrard, but much more technical if that makes sense? Xabi is a better passer than Baraja, I will give you that one, but to say he is better at reading the game is not something I agree with.

Xabi in time will probably become better than Baraja, but to say Baraja is not a good player is something I do not like. Fabregas will become a complete player, he will be hailed by fans everywhere soon enough. Xabi has more experience, but Fabregas is showing more progress at a young age than Xabi was showing at his age, if you understand what I'm saying?

I rate Baraja, Xavi and Fabregas as better midfielders than Xabi, but that's not to say my opinon won't change and that's not me saying Xabi is not good, but Xabi could be a better player and improve more if he wasn't restricted in his freedom. Xabi has made good progress at Liverpool, but he could make more if Benitez doesn't mould him into an anchorman.

by **Ronny** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:24 pm

Sabre wrote:
Cesc will keep Xabi out of the Spain squad, you'll see, he is already a much better passer than Xabi, he will only widen the gulf between himself and Xabi.

Cesc MIGHT keep out Xavi of the squad, not Xabi. If you put a team with the little Xavi and the little Cesc, and Raul, and Torres, and LG and Navas or Joaquin how could you expect to win a game? you wouldn't recover a ball until you get a goal kick!

Xabi will be behind this players, just in the same literal way that he's covering the back of Gerrard. Xabi will be in the starting eleven of Spain with any coach, even the aged Aragones.

Maybe so, but I still think Cesc defensive game will be introduced at some point soon. I have a friend like you who supports Mallorca, but likes Arsenal too. He said that Wenger wants to make Cesc into the Spanish version of Vieria.

by **Barca Murph** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:27 pm

Sabre wrote:That's not a problem for Barcelona who has the best players of Spain in La Masia, makes them study there, and grabs them from their original places to put them there as if they were livestock.

Few can imagine where Arteta comes from. He's from the same neighbourhood than Xabi Alonso in San Sebastian, but he was a lad he was more promising than Xabi because he developed his body well. Barcelona took him from San Sebastian when he was 14 or 15. In Barcelona he hadn't opportunities so he went to Scotland, then back where he should have been, but we had a twát as a manager and we sold him to Neverton.

Barcelona had never troubles to bring the best players of Europe and Spain to their youth system, no matter if it's via a contract, or offering a new life to the youngster and his parents as he usually does.

No matter how many players we bring to develop at La Masia, it still doesn't stop other teams taking any of them if they choose to leave.

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:28 pm

If any I think he is a 4. He will be a 4 when Hyppia leaves that number, now he's 14.

He's natural place is the middle of the park and behind an attacking midfielder. Beckenbauer was a great defender but also liked to go up to the pitch, the same applies to Alonso, if he's given space, he'll go forward and if he's allowed, he'll shoot.

I wouldn't say the word restricted. I'd talk about disciple and tactical helps. Somebody has to cover the gaps when Agger goes up or Finnan goes up or we have 6 men up front, somebody must make the cover. I don't think that doesn't mean restricted, but that Alonso makes well his job.

Hamman was a player that made this natural job very well. The difference is that Alonso knows aswell hitting the ball and putting good free kicks and he enjoys to go up when he can AFFORD it. But his natural position? defensive midfielder IMHO.

You won't see Alonso comfortable in narrow spaces and dribbling like Gerrard does. When the oposition is deep he steps up and can give good last passes, but he's role is the classical "4" to me.

by **A.B.** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:30 pm

Ronny wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Cesc will keep Xabi out of the Spain squad, you'll see, he is already a much better passer than Xabi, he will only widen the gulf between himself and Xabi.

Cesc MIGHT keep out Xavi of the squad, not Xabi. If you put a team with the little Xavi and the little Cesc, and Raul, and Torres, and LG and Navas or Joaquin how could you expect to win a game? you wouldn't recover a ball until you get a goal kick!

Xabi will be behind this players, just in the same literal way that he's covering the back of Gerrard. Xabi will be in the starting eleven of Spain with any coach, even the aged Aragones.

Maybe so, but I still think Cesc defensive game will be introduced at some point soon. I have a friend like you who supports Mallorca, but likes Arsenal too. He said that Wenger wants to make Cesc into the Spanish version of Vieria.

I doubt that Wenger would do that anytime soon. The point is Alonso is a better all around midfielder than Cesc. Cesc can't tackle to save his life let alone defend.

He has freedom at Arsenal as he has Gilberto doing the dirty work for him but he doesn't read the game like Xabi nor is he a better overall passer of the ball than him.

by **Ronny** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:34 pm

Well I do not watch Alonso as much as I'd like, he was a big loss to La Liga when he left and I did want us to sign him in the early days, but he seems to have become a lot more disciplined at Liverpool and he seems more static. Xabi is not a great dribbler, he never has been, you're right and in tight areas he will get bullied off the football, but I still feel he shouldn't be pinned down to one position. I feel from what I've seen of Liverpool that him and Gerrard should alternate, allowing Xabi a few minutes to attack and a few minutes to defend. It would help Xabi's game even more and he'd be a better player for it.

by **Barca Murph** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:35 pm

To try and change Cesc now would be a mistake IMO. Like AB said, with Gilberto mopping up behind him there is no need for it.

by **Ronny** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:38 pm

Barca Murph wrote:To try and change Cesc now would be a mistake IMO. Like AB said, with Gilberto mopping up behind him there is no need for it.

Gilberto can only go on for a few more years, there will come a point where we will see Cesc's defensive work improve. Look at Sissoko from Valencia to now. He has made remarkable progress on his positioning and distribution of the ball. He looks like a completely different player.

by **A.B.** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:38 pm

Barca Murph wrote:To try and change Cesc now would be a mistake IMO. Like AB said, with Gilberto mopping up behind him there is no need for it.

They already have a replacement for Gilberto, his name is Diaby. He is currently injured but it wouldn't surprise me if he starts playing regularly next season.

So as you said, they won't be changing Cesc at this point of time.

by **Barca Murph** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:42 pm

Ronny wrote:Gilberto can only go on for a few more years, there will come a point where we will see Cesc's defensive work improve. Look at Sissoko from Valencia to now. He has made remarkable progress on his positioning and distribution of the ball. He looks like a completely different player.

When Gilberto leaves you sign another DM, you don't ruin your attacking options to deal with the problem.

by **A.B.** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:44 pm

Barca Murph wrote:
Ronny wrote:Gilberto can only go on for a few more years, there will come a point where we will see Cesc's defensive work improve. Look at Sissoko from Valencia to now. He has made remarkable progress on his positioning and distribution of the ball. He looks like a completely different player.

When Gilberto leaves you sign another DM, you don't ruin your attacking options to deal with the problem.

Exactly.

by **Ronny** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:45 pm

How would developing Cesc into a complete midfielder 'ruin' him? If anything would make him better, they still haven't replaced Patrick and the have someone in a similar mould. You're also forgetting Arsenal are not strong money wise, so it would be a smart move.

As for the person who said Xabi is a better passer, that's not true, Cesc does have a wide variety of passes in his locker, he just doesn't get a chance to initialise them because Arsenal play very narrow and quick so Cesc doesn't have time or space to hit Hollywood balls like Alonso does with Liverpool.

by **A.B.** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:50 pm

Ronny wrote:How would developing Cesc into a complete midfielder 'ruin' him? If anything would make him better, they still haven't replaced Patrick and the have someone in a similar mould. You're also forgetting Arsenal are not strong money wise, so it would be a smart move.

As for the person who said Xabi is a better passer, that's not true, Cesc does have a wide variety of passes in his locker, he just doesn't get a chance to initialise them because Arsenal play very narrow and quick so Cesc doesn't have time or space to hit Hollywood balls like Alonso does with Liverpool.

So what makes Cesc a better passer of the ball than Alonso? Cesc is allowed to play further up the field and make the killer passes because that's his job where as Xabi is totally opposite.

The same argument you're using for Cesc could be used for Xabi.

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