Liverpool FC Forum

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:06 am

You DID however, insinuate that you wanted Rafa to leave, you f*cking plum.

Firstly, I, the f*cking plum did not insinuate that I wanted Rafa to leave. I said that he HAS to go in this and the old trafford thread.

One instance, eh? One instance, you thick b*stard? OK - here goes: Champions' League Semi Final victory over Sh*tski. Two-legged game, resulting in a win for LFC. Now, I can go on - Last season's FA Cup win over the Manc scum. Tactics, pal. Or how about the FA Cup Semi Final victory over Sh*tski? You f*cking pudding. Oh, and not forgetting the 2-1 win over Arsenal when we had about 15 players out injured. Juventus, Beyer Leverkuson, Olympiacos, Sh*tski in the group stages last season, Deportivo La Coruna, Monaco, etc, etc, etc.

Ok.... he's done ok in the cup competitions. I'll give you that much... but honestly.... Leverkusen? Olypiacos? Monaco? IMO, these are hardly big teams and TBH I would expect LFC to eat these guys up and not have to struggle the way we did.

Sh!tsk!? we beat them over 2 legs and it took a disputed goal to do it... I'd say that those were pretty even matches and there was no clear indication that we out-thought Moanrinho...

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt bout the arsenal game as I don't recall that we had 15 players out..... But it did take a Mellor flukey strike from distance to beat them right? (I may be wrong here... getting old)

I'll give you the 2 FA cup matches against Sh!tsk! and the mancs... we definitely shaded those ones.

But by and large these are all in cup games. To freshen your memory, Houllier had us holding 5 cups at the same time at one point... does this mean that he was a tactically superior manager? Not to my way of thinking it doesn't.....

The one trophy that all Liverpool fans have been craving and yearning for is the premiership.... and nowhere in your post did you address the fact that we have lost 11 times in 14 attempts against the big 3 in the league....

Does this not suggest to you that Rafa may not have the knowhow to bring no. 19 back to Anfield?

You must have the memory of a plate of chips. (Oh, actually - you only started supporting LFC AFTER the win in Istanbul, didn't you, sh*thead?)

Actually this is a standard response from you whenever a poster on here disagrees with you.... Just for the record, I'd like to state again that a critical appraisal of the teams performance and the Gaffer's tactics does not make one a fickle or a "jump on the bandwagon" fan.
Just someone who has a different opinion and is not afraid of stating those opinions.... this is the purpose of the forum, yes?

I'm only gonna say this once more as unlike you, I don't feel the need to wave my club loyalties and credentials in the air... You were born in 1982..... I've been a fan since 1976... In other words, before you were even a gleam in your dad's eye, I was already standing on the kop...

Saying "don't say Istanbul..." is a load of old sh*te aswell - did he not manage the team that day? It seems with c*cksuckers like you, the team only wins because of Gerrard, and only loses because of Rafa. You arthritic tailbone.

Yes, Rafa was the manager on the night and he did a p!ss poor job.... No way should we be down 3-0 by half time.... His selections on the day was shocking.... Only with the enforced substitution that had to be made, that we started to play a lot better..... Rafa had little or no thinking influence in that match in the opinion of my arthritic tailbone.... what dug us out of the hole was Didi, Stevie and the LFC fans cheering the team on.....

Sh*tski beat us at Shatford Bridge this season, but we beat them in the Community Sheild. We have a cup - they don't. Say what you want, but the fact is we've beaten them in every cup competition bar the Carling Cup.

Don't console yourself with this fact. Weren't you one of the fans who said that the results of friendlies don't really mean much? I see the tune has changed.... The community shield is SO much more desirable that the premiership I'm sure....

And for your information, you piece of filth, Robbie Fowler is my favourite player by miles, so just where you get your half-c*cked notion that I'm "brown-nosing" Xabi is between you and a box of kleenex.

At least we can agree on one thing then.... Robbie's my favourite player too.... In my opinion, Gerrard's our best player, closely followed by Xabi....

The sad, clueless, pr!ck will go away now (from this debate) as theres really no point in discussing things further with you when you're in this kind of mood.... Were u adopted? Coz I can't believe that your mom would not have taught you better manners when you were little....

PS: Apologies if the thread is a little difficult to read.... have not figured out how to do the quotes in pieces yet.... too old and not very computer literate.....

PPS: Finally figured out how to do it right!

by **Rafa D** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:19 am

Conn'O'Var,

You are suggesting Rafa is tactically inept and point the the fact that he has only brought sucess to us in the cup games. However last year was Liverpool's most consistent and best ever Premiership points haul. So how can you justify your comments with certain truths like this in front of you?

Rafa Benitez is doing a fine job for Liverpool Football Club. Our best ever points haul last year would of actually won us the league in 9 out of the 14 Premiership years that have been decided so to suggest he is not got the tactical nous is a absurd. I have absolute faith in Rafa and its not just blind faith, I truly believe he is the man to bring us back number 19.

His record speaks for itself and to condemn the man for a poor start is bang out of order.

Where are you from?

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:20 am

I havent been on here since the game, i was absolutely gutted with the way the players seemed resigned to defeat and the general lack of belief that they could get back in it.
Although Gerrard had his best season ever last season i think the time has come to bring him back into the centre, the reason being is that he has lost one of the major aspects of his game, his tackling.
Anyone who's played football knows that winning 50-50 tackles fires players and fans up, Steven playing as a winger or with the freedom to attack is taking away that competitiveness from his game...and he is not able to influence games where we are not performing as much.
His personal life may be another factor but imo for the time being get him back in the centre, ask him to take responsibility for winning the battle then once its won we can start looking at him getting forward more.
We were second best against united and the lack of passion was alarming. Fletcher won most of his 50-50's and Giggs barged Sissoko over at one point, we need our skipper in the middle....firing up his team mates....not isolated upfront waiting for scraps.
BTW talk of selling Gerrard, Alonso or losing the manager are ridiculous, they are 3 major reasons why we were tipped to challenge for the title this season.
Alonso has had a poor start (minus the Newcastle goal) and needs to be dropped, but he will come good with a spell on the bench.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:26 am

A lovers tiff already ConnO'var?

I spend hours (well a couple of minutes) getting you and Lando to kiss and make up and now we're off again.

You both love Liverpool, Robbie and Eva what more do you need !

by **Redman in wales** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:35 am

Ace Ventura wrote:I havent been on here since the game, i was absolutely gutted with the way the players seemed resigned to defeat and the general lack of belief that they could get back in it.
Although Gerrard had his best season ever last season i think the time has come to bring him back into the centre, the reason being is that he has lost one of the major aspects of his game, his tackling.
Anyone who's played football knows that winning 50-50 tackles fires players and fans up, Steven playing as a winger or with the freedom to attack is taking away that competitiveness from his game...and he is not able to influence games where we are not performing as much.
His personal life may be another factor but imo for the time being get him back in the centre, ask him to take responsibility for winning the battle then once its won we can start looking at him getting forward more.
We were second best against united and the lack of passion was alarming. Fletcher won most of his 50-50's and Giggs barged Sissoko over at one point, we need our skipper in the middle....firing up his team mates....not isolated upfront waiting for scraps.

a good point ace...

alot of people have been discussing gerrard in various threads... reasons for loss of form, where his best position is or where he's best to suit the team... I dont think anyones mentioned the fact that being on the RW affects his tackling and the games 50-50 challenges

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:55 am

Redman in wales wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I havent been on here since the game, i was absolutely gutted with the way the players seemed resigned to defeat and the general lack of belief that they could get back in it.
Although Gerrard had his best season ever last season i think the time has come to bring him back into the centre, the reason being is that he has lost one of the major aspects of his game, his tackling.
Anyone who's played football knows that winning 50-50 tackles fires players and fans up, Steven playing as a winger or with the freedom to attack is taking away that competitiveness from his game...and he is not able to influence games where we are not performing as much.
His personal life may be another factor but imo for the time being get him back in the centre, ask him to take responsibility for winning the battle then once its won we can start looking at him getting forward more.
We were second best against united and the lack of passion was alarming. Fletcher won most of his 50-50's and Giggs barged Sissoko over at one point, we need our skipper in the middle....firing up his team mates....not isolated upfront waiting for scraps.

a good point ace...

alot of people have been discussing gerrard in various threads... reasons for loss of form, where his best position is or where he's best to suit the team... I dont think anyones mentioned the fact that being on the RW affects his tackling and the games 50-50 challenges

You take away the defensive responsibility of Gerrard and you are losing alot of his competitiveness and ability to influence things when the chips are down.
I have been one of the people advocating giving him the licence to roam, as he is so difficult to defend with his pace and power, but i think the time is right to get him back doing what he does best, he is equally as good at winning the ball and driving the team on, as he is at shooting and crossing, we are limiting his potential and influence on the games at the minute imo.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:44 am

I think the point people are missing is which is the stronger midfield :-

Pennant Gerrard Alonso Gonzales or Gerrard Sissoko Alonso Gonzales or Pennant Gerrard Sissoko Gonzales

For me the second one is much better. The problem is that at the moment they are all playing well below par. If they were playing well no-one would dream of dropping any of them for Pennant!

However they are not playing well and maybe a spell on the bench and a change would be of some benefit. I personally think that one of the reasons for Gerrards poor form (discounting rumours) is that Alonso is not finding Gerrard with the ball in the same way that he did last season. These things tend to have a knock on effect and unfortunately Alonso's form has affected Gerrards.

The question marks over Gerrard being disciplined enough for the CM role is also a valid point after his performance against Gala, and his non-performance against Blackburn. What I do agree with strongly is that a return to CM may have the effect of inspiring Gerrard to start smashing into tackles again and galvanising the team.

I see it as a good short term solution to move Gerrard back into the centre, but unless or until we sign a better winger than Pennant IMO it would be short term.

Hardly anyone complained last season, or saw it as much of a problem that Gerrard was playing on the right. Infact most thought it was his best position. Its the loss of form of 2 of our best players (Alonso and Gerrard) that has brought their roles into question.

I think we are still missing the steadying presence of Hamann in some games, as the inexperience of Momo has been exploited in a few games this season.

by **akumaface** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:53 am

I think we can only speculate what's wrong with Gerrard. But no one knows why except himself. Right now, I think even if Gerrard and Alonso are in form, it is still not enough. For Alonso, he needs others to move and create space for him to pass to but I do not see enough movement from the rest of the squad. Therefore, no space for him to pass except backwards or side ways. As for Gerrard, I think the question is will the team at it's best if Gerrard plays out wide or middle. This basically means if the midfield of
Riise, Alonso, Momo and Gerrard is better than Riise, Alonso, Gerrard and Pennant etc. Gerrard maybe at his best playing middle but Rafa maybe thinking to average the midfield out so that he is not relying on one side or a single player. I think his idea is good but this may not work every match. For a game like against the top team, we need Gerrard at the middle because he will fire up against them. FOr other so called lesser opponents, he can experience a bit. But when it is not working during the match, Rafa need to change his tactics. If Gerrard not playing well in the right then change him back to Centre. I admire him sticking to his principle but you gotto adjust against the situation. This is what coaches do. Also, we have so many new players this year, they need time to gel and it is harder to do so if different line up every game. The fact is simple, if it works, no one will be complaining but its now 4 or 5 games in the row that we played badly. A small change may pay big dividend down the road. Even the team is not playing well but LFC will always be my favourite team in the whole world. So, just keep our fingers crossed. :buttrock

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by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:31 am

s@int wrote:I think the point people are missing is which is the stronger midfield :-

Pennant Gerrard Alonso Gonzales or Gerrard Sissoko Alonso Gonzales or Pennant Gerrard Sissoko Gonzales

For me the second one is much better. The problem is that at the moment they are all playing well below par. If they were playing well no-one would dream of dropping any of them for Pennant!

However they are not playing well and maybe a spell on the bench and a change would be of some benefit. I personally think that one of the reasons for Gerrards poor form (discounting rumours) is that Alonso is not finding Gerrard with the ball in the same way that he did last season. These things tend to have a knock on effect and unfortunately Alonso's form has affected Gerrards.

The question marks over Gerrard being disciplined enough for the CM role is also a valid point after his performance against Gala, and his non-performance against Blackburn. What I do agree with strongly is that a return to CM may have the effect of inspiring Gerrard to start smashing into tackles again and galvanising the team.

I see it as a good short term solution to move Gerrard back into the centre, but unless or until we sign a better winger than Pennant IMO it would be short term.

Hardly anyone complained last season, or saw it as much of a problem that Gerrard was playing on the right. Infact most thought it was his best position. Its the loss of form of 2 of our best players (Alonso and Gerrard) that has brought their roles into question.

I think we are still missing the steadying presence of Hamann in some games, as the inexperience of Momo has been exploited in a few games this season.

Its not just about putting him centre midfield, i think its about the instructions given to him from the manager as well.
He has been allowed to play without caution for about a year now so to just pick him centre midfield and let him play would probably lead to him getting caught out position at times.
What i am advocating is getting him back in the centre and TELLING him he has to win the ball and boss his opponents, against United Fletcher and Giggs were winning 50-50's in the midfield, with Gerrard Sissoko and Alonso that shouldnt happen.
Our skipper with a bit of fire in his belly is virtually unplayable, i want it coaxed back out of him.

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:47 am

Rafa-Dodd wrote:Conn'O'Var,

You are suggesting Rafa is tactically inept and point the the fact that he has only brought sucess to us in the cup games. However last year was Liverpool's most consistent and best ever Premiership points haul. So how can you justify your comments with certain truths like this in front of you?

Rafa Benitez is doing a fine job for Liverpool Football Club. Our best ever points haul last year would of actually won us the league in 9 out of the 14 Premiership years that have been decided so to suggest he is not got the tactical nous is a absurd. I have absolute faith in Rafa and its not just blind faith, I truly believe he is the man to bring us back number 19.

His record speaks for itself and to condemn the man for a poor start is bang out of order.

Where are you from?

Rafa-Dodd,

I hear you and appreciate your points but bear with me for a minute...

To answer your question, I'm originally from Peterborough out of Cambridgeshire.... me da was a mad LFC fan and this rubbed off on me from a very early age.... Right now, I've been based out of Qatar in the middle east for 10 odd years now.... demands of the job I'm afraid...

I'd like to point out that my original point was that Rafa, IMO, is tactically deficient in the LEAGUE.... his approach is fine for the cups but he's been exhibiting a very stubborn streak when it comes to flexibility of his tactics in the league....

Granted that last year was our best ever premiership haul... but is this really down to Rafa or could it possibly be that the rest of the premiership was simply not good enough?

I say again, against the teams that finished on top of us, we did not register a single victory but only managed 1 draw and NINE losses in 2 + seasons. Plus Arsenal was in transition last year but they look like they are coming back with a vengeance..... Why does it take us years to achieve what ManU and Arsenal did in 1 year?

The answer in my opinion is a need for heart, grunt work and willingness to dig deep and win ugly if necessary. These are things that Rafa has failed to demonstrate that he's understood about the English game.....

Rafa's doing a fine job? I used to think so too but I realise now that I was blinded by the Champions league and FA cup victories.... Matches I now think back to and believe he got desperately wrong...

On top of that, he's got us playing like a bleeding championship team... long ball after long ball in match after match.... Team selection that beggars belief and a footballing style that would shame Wimbledon...

The purchase of players like Bellamy and Pennant (troublesome tw@ts with insufficient talent to lace up for LFC also bothers me..... If the funds were not enuff, we should have persisted with the players we already have and let some of the youngsters have a go...

I applaud your faith in him but must apologise that I don't share the same faith. In your view, I may be bang out of order but it's my opinion at any rate......

I PRAY that I'm wrong and would be happy to scoff down humble pie should he manage to bring back the premiership to Anfield but right now, based on his performance to date, I FEAR that I will not have to....

And that does not bode well for the club I love.....

Cheers...

Conn

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:53 am

s@int wrote:A lovers tiff already ConnO'var?

I spend hours (well a couple of minutes) getting you and Lando to kiss and make up and now we're off again.

You both love Liverpool, Robbie and Eva what more do you need !

You're right mate.....

Those things should be enuff....
Eva, Robbie and LFC..... what more could a man want?

Guess I got carried away just a little.... it's just that friend Lando gets me goat..... he knows the right buttons to press....

Time to raise the flag of truce, smoke the peace pipe, bury the hatchet and all them other cliches to signal an end to the spat....

Apologies to ALL for ruining the thread.....

by **5 stars** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:57 pm

ConnO'var wrote:I'd like to point out his approach is fine for the cups but he's been exhibiting a very stubborn streak when it comes to flexibility of his tactics in the league....

Between 2001/2004 when Rafa was in charge of Valencia in what he won the LaLiga in his first season, they then went on to win both the La Liga and UEFA Cup in his third. In 2003 they finished only fifth in LaLiga. Should we take into account Rafa's success in cup competitions, when discussing whether or not something is wrong with our league form over the last two seasons?

Rafa is remembered mainly for the two La Liga in won at Valencia, not for winning the UEFA Cup.The fact that we have thrived in cup competitions, but struggled domestically suggests that there is a problem. It's not so much a problem, just that we are more suited to one off affairs in the FA Cup, and the format of the Champions League.

In one of matches it's not anymore of a case of beating your opponents, than it is a case of your opponents losing. It can give you a huge advantage, if you are able to capitalise on any weakness prior to the match. This is why it is more suited to Rafa's approach of changing tactics and playing certain players in different positions, to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:26 pm

Benitez to keep Gerrard on right

Gerrard will have to bide his time on the right side of midfield
Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez insists he will continue to play Steven Gerrard on the right side of midfield.
Sunday's defeat by Manchester United left Liverpool 11 points adrift of the leaders in the Premiership title race.

And there have been reports that Gerrard is not happy with the role he is being asked to play.

But Benitez told BBC Five Live Sport: "He's as happy as he is in the national team. He's playing for England boss Steve McClaren on the right side."

News conference: Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez

He continued: "Steve McClaren is clever, he knows the best season of Steven Gerrard was playing as a right winger going inside, not as a right winger close to the touchline, and scoring 23 goals.

"Steven is the captain, he knows the most important thing is the club, the supporters and, if he plays on the right side, going inside with freedom, and Momo Sissoko and Xabi Alonso can give the balance to the team. He knows that is better for the team."

Liverpool will look to return to winning ways in the Carling Cup on Wednesday night when Reading are the visitors to Anfield.

But Benitez insisted he was happier with the way the team has been performing, compared to 12 months ago.

"Last season was worse for me. We started with a lot of problems in the Premier League and were 24 points behind," he said.

Benitez will rotate his squad for the visit of Steve Coppell's side and confirmed that striker Robbie Fowler will be in the side after overcoming a back problem.

"When we decided to bring Robbie here, we knew he was a very good finisher and could do the job for us because he had a lot of passion," he commented.

"He knows he has some players in front of him this season but he can do a good job for us because he is a fan, not just a player, and he must support his team-mates and the young players and be an example for them."
-----------------------

It seems Rafa is going to stick with Stevie on the right, and hes happier with the way the team is playing than 12 months ago!

Playing Gerrard on the right is not a problem to me at all, as long as Gerrard gets his form back. Rafa being happier with the way Liverpool are playing however is another matter, no matter how many points we were behind last season. Last season at this time we had a problem scoring ,this season we have a problem with the team!

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:14 am

ConnO'var wrote:
s@int wrote:A lovers tiff already ConnO'var?

I spend hours (well a couple of minutes) getting you and Lando to kiss and make up and now we're off again.

You both love Liverpool, Robbie and Eva what more do you need !

You're right mate.....

Those things should be enuff....
Eva, Robbie and LFC..... what more could a man want?

Guess I got carried away just a little.... it's just that friend Lando gets me goat..... he knows the right buttons to press....

Time to raise the flag of truce, smoke the peace pipe, bury the hatchet and all them other cliches to signal an end to the spat....

Apologies to ALL for ruining the thread.....

Suits me.

What I must mention is the fact that you compare Man U and Arsenal's transitions to ours.

The obvious difference being, that Wenger and particularly Ferguson have been at their respective clubs for years.

Rafa is still relatively new.

WHat I ask everyone is this:

Of all the managers in the league - who has achieved what Rafa has without the virtue of unlimited funds in th esame timescale?

The answer, quite obviously, is no one.

Rafa is brilliant, but he's not a miracle worker.

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Am i being a little over dramatic... - Or has something got to give?

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