Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

bigmick wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

ConnO'var wrote:

bigmick wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Agreed......

Bad Bob wrote:

bigmick wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Good points Mick and I would certainly agree with the head-scratching about Tuesday's line-up in Holland.  Surely one of Gerrard or Alonso had to start to link midfield and attack.  You'll get no argument from me that Rafa was way too conservative in that game and that his persistence in playing Zenden at CM when Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all fit and available is exasperating.  PSV were there for the taking but, after the first half (when Kuyt and Bellamy carved them open a fair few times), we were short of ideas going forward and the game cried out for Alonso, Gerrard or both.  As for the Haifa games, I missed them both, but it sounds like the concerns you've raised over formation/team selection there are thoughtful.  So far in the CL, then, Rafa's decisions have been curious at best.

But let's get back to discussing the league for a moment.  Reading between the lines, it seems that your main concern was the team sent out for the Sheffield United game and that you were more or less okay with the teamsheets against West Ham and Everton.  You've explained your main issues with the team selection at Sheffield quite nicely in other posts so I'll just summarize to verify: Crouch should have played, both because he would have caused their CBs problems and because our CMs (Zenden and Sissoko) were not the most adept passers of the ball, meaning that the big man would have been an easier target to hit than the two little fellas (Robbie and Bellamy).  About right?  You see, I read that, and see the logic behind it.  But, I also wonder if hindsight is 20/20 in this situation?  In hindsight, we could have really used Crouch that day and Rafa maybe made a mistake in leaving him on the bench.

But, on the other side of the coin, what did the players on the pitch fail to do that day to ensure a vital 3 points in our opening match.  I still contend that Sheffield United could not live with the team we set out that day from a purely footballing standpoint so what went wrong?  Surely the players who started have to take some responsibility for the points dropped that day?

Just for the record, I am not a blind follower of Rafa nor am I the merry minstrel of squad rotation purely for rotation's sake.  I started this thread (and commented in a similar vein in many other threads) because I just cannot believe how quickly many in the press, on this board and presumably in the stands have jumped on the "new tinkerman" bandwagon.  The post from aCe' above is a perfect example: incredulity and outrage expressed about our excessive squad rotation coupled with an implicit--or in his case explicit--assertion that Rafa's an utter moron for not realizing what everyone else can so plainly see.  I'm sorry, I'm not having this 'Rafa just doesn't get it' stuff.  The man's shown more than enough in his two years here to demonstrate that there is a method to his madness and we'll need to be patient while the learning curve for him and the players is negotiated.  That's not to say that he's above criticism...it's simply to say that a lot of criticism is well over the top and more than a little venomous toward a man that has done so much for the club in such a short period of time.  (And these last comments are in no way directed toward you, Big Mick--you've always been fair and balanced in your criticisms of Rafa.)

Right. Rant over!

Red Soul wrote:I think it's a huge mistake to bemoan the rotation policy as the cause for our current indifferent form, and I have no doubt that people will be praising it towards the end of the season when we can put 11 fresh men on the field against 11 battle-weary, exhausted 40-game veterans.

What Rafa has done is nothing short of awesome. He's assembled a team that doesn't consist of a starting 11 and several lower quality backups, but 22 players who are each good enough to contend for their position. I believe that the big picture is to get this squad to be able to play as a cohesive, well-drilled unit no matter who is in those positions, a machine that loses none of it's efficiency or end product regardless of which particular parts are fitted. The team must be used to Pennant playing on the right as they are with Gerrard. They must be used to having Agger sitting in the centre of defence as they are with Sami. Obviously, this is going to take some time, but I reckon it'll happen sooner rather than later.

There is also the fact that we have had an influx of new players. While Pennant and Bellamy should bed in fairly quickly, having had experience in the Premiership, they are having to familiarise themselves with a completely different team to the ones they played for. Our other acquisitions will take slightly longer, but they are obviously quality players and I'm confident they will also adjust to the Premiership. But it's going to take more than three or four games into the season before we see the benefits they will undoubtedly bring.

We should also take into account that this season has arrived on the back of a World Cup, and since we are such a good side with a huge amount of talented players, we had lots of representation out there. This meant that Rafa didn't have a great deal of pre-season training time with many of them, and some of them will obviously be feeling the effects of having played such a number of matches close together. The rotation policy will cater for that, and allow players to regain full fitness without a discernible drop in quality of our team.

We've also had injuries, more than a few spots of bad luck, and crammed fixture lists to contend with.

In short, stop moaning about the rotation policy that's going to win us the Premiership at some point during the next few years. Instead, revel in the fact that we've got 20+ players who, to a man, are good enough to wear that red shirt.

one of the best posts on here for a while. and totally echoed by me.

rome certainly wasnt built in a day...but when it was, it was a joy to behold.

the only chink in the armour of this piece is, while the rest of the contenders may well flounder over a long campaign. affording the advantage to a contender with a  'stronger' squad. (even discounting chelsea, who may well be able to replace like for like often enough...but in terms of match-fitness, their replacements would be well short) i feel we are still 3 or 4 short of having those same solid foundations. make no bones..the liverpool squad in its entirity is very good. but no more than that, yet.

but the real difficulty here is that, in the scenario described above, it would of course had become a 'real' advantage had we not of dropped early points from which to have been in a position to strike at the enemy, terminally. because lets face it, how many points WILL they drop?  tired squad or not...

we'll see.

but lose on sunday and for me.......   doubtful if there will be enough future opportunities TO capitalise.