Liverpool FC Forum

by **PureLoneWolf** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:28 pm

I think there is an important difference between what Rafa does and rotating. He simply picks the team he feels can win. He will of course take into account fitness levels etc, but the main point of the team selection is the ability to win the match.

Why he is NOT a tinkerman in my book is because all of this happens before the game, during the match, he makes tactical substitutions (when injuries don't force his hand) and has a plan B. Ranieris downfall, and label of the tinkerman, was due to bizarre tactical changes mid-match. Rafa doesn't do this, and I for one am pleased that we have a manager with the Balls to pick the best 11 for the job in hand, not just the best 11 on paper.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:05 am

Oasis wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:lets face it its all about results, if things keep progressing then no one will be on his back, the minute things start turning sour then people will start calling for a more settled team.

injuries aside we need to give every player a chance and we also need to find which systems and personal work best.

It is indeed about results, but fans pay their hard earned money and their TV license to watch, eventful and entertaining football. So I think results and good performances go hand in hand.

I agree we need to give every player his fair share of playing time, but I wouldn't change the core of the team unless they are injured, suspended or exhausted.

Tinkering on a small scale like two or three changes is fine, it's when you take out seven or eight players, that you can do some serious damage to the balance of the team and like Ranieri found out at Chelsea and Houllier at Liverpool; it costs you points and it costs you in knock out football.

It cost us dearly in the Champions' League '04-'05, and the FA Cup last year didn't it?

Valencia were positively fuming at Rafa's "Tinkering" when it brought them 2 league titles and a UEFA Cup.

Just because lesser managers tried and failed, don't judge Rafa on their mistakes.

His methods are proven with successes spanning virtually his entire managerial career.

by **azriahmad** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:48 am

Just because lesser managers tried and failed, don't judge Rafa on their mistakes.

His methods are proven with successes spanning virtually his entire managerial career.

Well phrased, Lando. Caludio Raineri and Gerrard Houllier are indeed lesser managers compared to the likes of Rafa, Mourinho, Wenger, Fergie etc., who at various times in their careers have made "tinkering" changes but are much more successful than the lesser two mentioned managers. Rafa does not tinker thoughtlessly or cluelessly like playing a midfielder in central defence or a striker wide out as a winger.

Some players came back from an unnecessarily long campaign like the World Cup, no thanks to FIFA, ans are surely still short of outright form and fitness, just like our very own Stevie G and Alonso. An intelligent manager who had been successful consistently in his career, as opposed to just one season or two, would have some considerations to make and did his changes with the state of his players in mind, rather than just because he feels changing here and there would bring about improvements.

by **Liverpool 4 EVA** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:25 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Oasis wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:lets face it its all about results, if things keep progressing then no one will be on his back, the minute things start turning sour then people will start calling for a more settled team.

injuries aside we need to give every player a chance and we also need to find which systems and personal work best.

It is indeed about results, but fans pay their hard earned money and their TV license to watch, eventful and entertaining football. So I think results and good performances go hand in hand.

I agree we need to give every player his fair share of playing time, but I wouldn't change the core of the team unless they are injured, suspended or exhausted.

Tinkering on a small scale like two or three changes is fine, it's when you take out seven or eight players, that you can do some serious damage to the balance of the team and like Ranieri found out at Chelsea and Houllier at Liverpool; it costs you points and it costs you in knock out football.

It cost us dearly in the Champions' League '04-'05, and the FA Cup last year didn't it?

Valencia were positively fuming at Rafa's "Tinkering" when it brought them 2 league titles and a UEFA Cup.

Just because lesser managers tried and failed, don't judge Rafa on their mistakes.

His methods are proven with successes spanning virtually his entire managerial career.

Absolutely 100% right.

Very well said. :nod

by **LiverpoolMadman** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:41 am

Kev Huyton 2006 wrote:Hello,

As a concerned fan, I have raised eyebrows over Rafa's over- enthusiasm to say he is going to change it round a lot.
He boasts we now have two players for every position and in the games thus far, too many changes in Personnel.

I personally do not think this is a good idea, as the team will be unsettled, possibly resulting in loss of form.

Great teams of the past, Arsenal, Man Utd in the 90's did not change the team selection that much, but Rafa has openly said he is going to change it round a lot, with all of the "options" we have.

If Agger plays well, is he then going to get dropped for Carra?
Will Pennant get dropped if Stevie goes back on the right wing for the next match?

Will Kuyt start up front, meaning an in-form crouch will get dropped?

Is Zenden going to take the place of Gonzalez or Aurelio?

And where is Kewell gonna fit in now?

Too Much change is not good.

As for me as long we win, it's OK for me ....

by **48-1119859832** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:03 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Oasis wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:lets face it its all about results, if things keep progressing then no one will be on his back, the minute things start turning sour then people will start calling for a more settled team.

injuries aside we need to give every player a chance and we also need to find which systems and personal work best.

It is indeed about results, but fans pay their hard earned money and their TV license to watch, eventful and entertaining football. So I think results and good performances go hand in hand.

I agree we need to give every player his fair share of playing time, but I wouldn't change the core of the team unless they are injured, suspended or exhausted.

Tinkering on a small scale like two or three changes is fine, it's when you take out seven or eight players, that you can do some serious damage to the balance of the team and like Ranieri found out at Chelsea and Houllier at Liverpool; it costs you points and it costs you in knock out football.

It cost us dearly in the Champions' League '04-'05, and the FA Cup last year didn't it?

Valencia were positively fuming at Rafa's "Tinkering" when it brought them 2 league titles and a UEFA Cup.

Just because lesser managers tried and failed, don't judge Rafa on their mistakes.

His methods are proven with successes spanning virtually his entire managerial career.

Where did I compare Rafa? I didn't mention Rafa once. If you want to pick a fight Lando, make sure you actually comment on what's written. :no

It's also common knowledge that tinkering willy fecking nilly can have a large negative effect on players. From what I've seen Rafa doesn't make large scale changes unless there is an injury crisis, so you're argument, holds no ground.

by **onizukaeikichi** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:12 pm

rafa's gonna play kewell a few games to help him regain his form and if he succeeds, he should be our starting left winger ahead of gonzales which i still havent seen much (yet). On saturday, there was once he took on defenders and went on a burst and i wish to see him using his speed more like this in the future.

by **Kev Huyton 2006** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:39 pm

No my point was,

if Rafa plays a certain formation way in the league, and then changes it all, players/ formation for a champions league knockout game, and then we lose it woefully like 2 legs versus Benfica last term, then it's a bad thing.

By playing players who arent used to playing in the team regularly or on the big occasion, or out of position.

I mean, paletta, Aurelio, Agger, bellamy, gonzalez, zenden, all unproven at European level.

:buttrock

by **Kev Huyton 2006** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:43 pm

alessandromagno wrote:Well, I expressed some doubts about this on an earlier thread. On the other hand, my conclusion there (still valid I think) was that as long as he's winning, no one is going to do anything other than praise Rafa.

Yeah and thats the point, for all our new signings, we do not still under Rafa look like the finished article.

Even Man Utd started with 3 wins out of 3, and they are a shadow of themselves.

Aurelio, Agger, Pennant, Zenden, Palleta are all unproven and "risky" buys if you ask me. They may do well, but the whole thing could go belly up.

We'll see im sure of over the next few months, this will tell the whole story.

I just wonder if Aurelio and agger, palletta and zenden, playing for LFC and in front of the kop with title expectations is too much of a big ask.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:19 pm

Kev Huyton 2006 wrote:No my point was,

if Rafa plays a certain formation way in the league, and then changes it all, players/ formation for a champions league knockout game, and then we lose it woefully like 2 legs versus Benfica last term, then it's a bad thing.

By playing players who arent used to playing in the team regularly or on the big occasion, or out of position.

I mean, paletta, Aurelio, Agger, bellamy, gonzalez, zenden, all unproven at European level.

Don't give Rafa a lot of credit there do you, lad? Do you really think he'd change out the whole squad from league game to CL game? Not going to happen. At most, barring extraordinary circumstances, 3-4 players may come into the side and to compensate for injuries, suspensions, etc. Of those, maybe 1 or 2 will be tactical changes.

As for the new fellas, if they have the required footballing quality--and they do--then mixing them carefully into the team for league and CL games is vital so that they gain experience. There is no pointing having a deep squad if you don't use it judiciously.

Bottom line--stop fretting. Rafa's no tinker man and he isn't going to turn the team into a circus by wringing the wholesale changes week in, week out. As Oddball says in Kelly's Heroes--"have a little faith, baby!"

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:09 am

Oasis wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Oasis wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:lets face it its all about results, if things keep progressing then no one will be on his back, the minute things start turning sour then people will start calling for a more settled team.

injuries aside we need to give every player a chance and we also need to find which systems and personal work best.

It is indeed about results, but fans pay their hard earned money and their TV license to watch, eventful and entertaining football. So I think results and good performances go hand in hand.

I agree we need to give every player his fair share of playing time, but I wouldn't change the core of the team unless they are injured, suspended or exhausted.

Tinkering on a small scale like two or three changes is fine, it's when you take out seven or eight players, that you can do some serious damage to the balance of the team and like Ranieri found out at Chelsea and Houllier at Liverpool; it costs you points and it costs you in knock out football.

It cost us dearly in the Champions' League '04-'05, and the FA Cup last year didn't it?

Valencia were positively fuming at Rafa's "Tinkering" when it brought them 2 league titles and a UEFA Cup.

Just because lesser managers tried and failed, don't judge Rafa on their mistakes.

His methods are proven with successes spanning virtually his entire managerial career.

Where did I compare Rafa? I didn't mention Rafa once. If you want to pick a fight Lando, make sure you actually comment on what's written.

It's also common knowledge that tinkering willy fecking nilly can have a large negative effect on players. From what I've seen Rafa doesn't make large scale changes unless there is an injury crisis, so you're argument, holds no ground.

Hmmm, well I find that quite hard to believe as the entire thread is about Rafa's tinkering, you f*cking plum.

If you want to try and out-do me in linguistics, I suggest you use one I am not proficient in. Like Chinese. Or f*cking Welsh.

I would also suggest you consider using your mouth, rather than your ar*e, to talk about matters relating to the team.

You clearly state Rafa doesn't make wholesale changes to the line-up unless injuries dictate.
Anyone on here with the slightest knowledge of our past line-ups could shoot you down over that like the dirty, flea-bitten dog you truely are.

Had you been a "fan" for more than 27 minutes, you'd be gleefully aware of Rafa's varied selections.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:14 am

by **48-1119859832** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:35 am

by **48-1119859832** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:46 am

It's not secret that too much tinkering can have a very negative effect on a team, it doesn't matter how good of a manager you are, if you take out core players like Carragher and stick someone else in defence you can lose key communication etc. But obviously you think football is like football manager and every player can gel within two seconds of kick off.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:32 pm

Oasis wrote:It's not secret that too much tinkering can have a very negative effect on a team, it doesn't matter how good of a manager you are, if you take out core players like Carragher and stick someone else in defence you can lose key communication etc. But obviously you think football is like football manager and every player can gel within two seconds of kick off.

To use your favourite pearl, "where did I say that", you scabby worm's entrails?

It may hurt your feelings, it may upset your ideal that you are the supreme dictator on all footballing matters, but Rafa has changed the entire 11 quite a few times, usually for Carling Cup/FA Cup matches.

If you pay any attention to the line-ups, you will notice that Rafa has hardly ever dropped JC, so why you should offer his name as an example is a little strange. The only times he's not played have been when he's injured or in the early stages of the Carling/FA Cups.

You would also know that Rafa doesn't see it as a "Team", rather a "Squad", and he uses that accordingly.

P.S. With the threat of overturning your wet-dream reality duely noted, I do not own "Football Manager", nor have I played it.

FOr someone as insistant on adhering to the facts as yourself, you do like to assume a lot of things, don't you?

You f*cking scrote.

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