Liverpool FC Forum

How has Rogers failed? He's being asked to buy dinner at Pizza Express on a budget enough for KFC. If anyone has failed it's FSG. They need to manage peoples expectations properly.

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:18 pm wrote:How has Rogers failed? He's being asked to buy dinner at Pizza Express on a budget enough for KFC. If anyone has failed it's FSG. They need to manage peoples expectations properly.

nobody has failed yet. FSG and BR are on the right track ,FSG is looking for a better utilization of the money they give and BR is doing a decent job at that while shifting team tactics to compensate the lack of Talent.
The only problem is that we have a very narrow margin for error. BR needs to hit it spot on with every player he brings.

Jacdaniel:

Wouldn't neccesarily say that Rodgers had failed in that case though.  Perhaps not been provided with the tools for the job. 
A bit like Rafa towards the end in particular. 

For me it all comes back to us not been able to compete financially. 

Some people will point out that we've made mistakes in the transfer market.  Of course we have.  Every team does.
For us though, we can't afford to make mistakes which again goes back to not having enough money.

Football is depressing sometimes 

This is just it though isn’t it – they’re not spending enough to compete with the likes of Man City and Chelsea. But  we CAN compete with the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Everton.

We have regularly outspent the three teams that finished directly above us.

The owners have financed the club with £75m over the last 2 years (excluding this summer). Arsenal’s owners made a £9m profit in the last two years, Spurs owners made a £26m profit, and Everton a £14m profit.

I’m not trying to defend the owners – more that we can’t just use the lack of funding from them as an excuse/reason, when they’re spending more than the 3 sides that finished above us last season

jacdaniel » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:14 pm wrote:
Wouldn't neccesarily say that Rodgers had failed in that case though.  Perhaps not been provided with the tools for the job. 
A bit like Rafa towards the end in particular. 

For me it all comes back to us not been able to compete financially. 

Some people will point out that we've made mistakes in the transfer market.  Of course we have.  Every team does.
For us though, we can't afford to make mistakes which again goes back to not having enough money.

Football is depressing sometimes 

I'm getting so tired of peopel saying we don't compete finacially when we spend more each year than most of our competitors. We have the money but we far to often p!ss away money, e.g Downing and Carrol to name but 2. FSG invested in kenny and got their fingers burnt big time. Of course they are now going to be cuatious, wouldn't you be?

only me » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:45 pm wrote:

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:18 pm wrote:How has Rogers failed? He's being asked to buy dinner at Pizza Express on a budget enough for KFC. If anyone has failed it's FSG. They need to manage peoples expectations properly.

BR needs to hit it spot on with every player he brings.

Realistically this is not achievable. Other teams can take the loss and spend big in trying again. We can't do that. We can't expect to 'get it right' every time with signings as this almost never happens in practice. We need more money and if FSG can't deliver on that then we need to reassess our expectations of where we want to get to.

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:56 pm wrote:

only me » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:45 pm wrote:

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:18 pm wrote:How has Rogers failed? He's being asked to buy dinner at Pizza Express on a budget enough for KFC. If anyone has failed it's FSG. They need to manage peoples expectations properly.

BR needs to hit it spot on with every player he brings.

Realistically this is not achievable. Other teams can take the loss and spend big in trying again. We can't do that. We can't expect to 'get it right' every time with signings as this almost never happens in practice. We need more money and if FSG can't deliver on that then we need to reassess our expectations of where we want to get to.

Do you think we could have done a better job with the funds given to the manager by the owners? I think we could have. BR and the scouting team needs to do a better job.
I agree we need to set our expectations accordingly ,but the responsibility of the manager and team is to prove we can bring results even if the financial climate isn't as good as before. Fact it can be done ,other teams did it.

Surely we should be happy campers if FSG can bring in 5 players (assuming we get Papadopolis and flog Skrtle) and have a net spend of ZERO.?

Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:52 pm wrote:

Jacdaniel:

Wouldn't neccesarily say that Rodgers had failed in that case though.  Perhaps not been provided with the tools for the job. 
A bit like Rafa towards the end in particular. 

For me it all comes back to us not been able to compete financially. 

Some people will point out that we've made mistakes in the transfer market.  Of course we have.  Every team does.
For us though, we can't afford to make mistakes which again goes back to not having enough money.

Football is depressing sometimes 

This is just it though isn’t it – they’re not spending enough to compete with the likes of Man City and Chelsea. But  we CAN compete with the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Everton.

We have regularly outspent the three teams that finished directly above us.

The owners have financed the club with £75m over the last 2 years (excluding this summer). Arsenal’s owners made a £9m profit in the last two years, Spurs owners made a £26m profit, and Everton a £14m profit.

I’m not trying to defend the owners – more that we can’t just use the lack of funding from them as an excuse/reason, when they’re spending more than the 3 sides that finished above us last season

Excellent post.

We have a track record of p!ssing money down the drain and still not achieving. Now is the time to try and different, more sustainable, strategy. A strategy that allows us to strategically invest until such a time that our credentials, i.e. CL team, warrant increased spend and investment.

Coutinho and Sturridge have shown that signings are available at a decent price who are capable of leading a CL charge, obviously it is the world class players (like Suarez) who we want to sign but the reality is the vast majority those established world class players will not sacrifice Champions League football to join a club pursuing CL football. The minority that do offer little value as they are often the mercenary type who are looking to maximise their contract at minimal commitment/effort for the team they sign for.

I am fully behind our current strategy, I also believe that FFPR will take effect that will only strengthen our cause.

Not really Redno7. We are still lacking the quality to push us up the table. Okay Coutinho and Sturridge will get a fuill season with us now and we will be slightly stronger than we was last year but with rumours of Suarez going.

Spurs will strengthen and I suspect they will get Soldado and even if they lose Bale they will reinvest alot of money.

This season is make or break. If we do not get CL football then it would be over 5 years without CL football.

I think the approach of steady and sustained is a good model but we are lacking 3/4 quality players. Once those 3/4 players are in then the scouting teams job is made easier by having less to worry about and focus on as we would have the spine of good team already in place. From there it's easier to push on to 3rd or 2nd or a title challenge. Right now to ask BR to take us from 7th to 4th is asking too much. He needs to sign the right players but he needs money to do it. He needs the sort of money FSG spend in their 1st season.

There is also the added benefit that if the club is seen to be spending money on quality players then that's an indication of their willingness to push on to the players. Our failings in this space have meant that when we do get hold of a truly talented player such as a Suarez or Torres they soon become of the opinion they need to move on as the club are not being ambitious.

Also on FSG's spending how much of that has actually been their own? If you take away the money we got in for Torres it's probably not much.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:16 pm wrote:

Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:52 pm wrote:

Jacdaniel:

Wouldn't neccesarily say that Rodgers had failed in that case though.  Perhaps not been provided with the tools for the job. 
A bit like Rafa towards the end in particular. 

For me it all comes back to us not been able to compete financially. 

Some people will point out that we've made mistakes in the transfer market.  Of course we have.  Every team does.
For us though, we can't afford to make mistakes which again goes back to not having enough money.

Football is depressing sometimes 

This is just it though isn’t it – they’re not spending enough to compete with the likes of Man City and Chelsea. But  we CAN compete with the likes of Arsenal, Spurs and Everton.

We have regularly outspent the three teams that finished directly above us.

The owners have financed the club with £75m over the last 2 years (excluding this summer). Arsenal’s owners made a £9m profit in the last two years, Spurs owners made a £26m profit, and Everton a £14m profit.

I’m not trying to defend the owners – more that we can’t just use the lack of funding from them as an excuse/reason, when they’re spending more than the 3 sides that finished above us last season

Excellent post.

We have a track record of p!ssing money down the drain and still not achieving. Now is the time to try and different, more sustainable, strategy. A strategy that allows us to strategically invest until such a time that our credentials, i.e. CL team, warrant increased spend and investment.

Coutinho and Sturridge have shown that signings are available at a decent price who are capable of leading a CL charge, obviously it is the world class players (like Suarez) who we want to sign but the reality is the vast majority those established world class players will not sacrifice Champions League football to join a club pursuing CL football. The minority that do offer little value as they are often the mercenary type who are looking to maximise their contract at minimal commitment/effort for the team they sign for.

I am fully behind our current strategy, I also believe that FFPR will take effect that will only strengthen our cause.

My point was mainly in relation to the Rodgers and Rafa era's.  I would assume most of our spending took place when Kenny / Comolli were in charge.  We were financially competitive for them first few months and we made some disastrous mistakes.  Of course I understand FSG being a little bit p**sed off about that.

But now we have Rodgers in charge and IMO we should either back him a little bit more than we have or else he should be pretty much exempt from criticism for at least a season or two as long as he keeps us top 6 / 7. 

Basically, we're talking like a club that has hopes of getting top 4 but acting like a club thats more just hopeful of it one day happening.

LFC1990 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:22 pm wrote:Not really Redno7. We are still lacking the quality to push us up the table. Okay Coutinho and Sturridge will get a fuill season with us now and we will be slightly stronger than we was last year but with rumours of Suarez going.

Spurs will strengthen and I suspect they will get Soldado and even if they lose Bale they will reinvest alot of money.

This season is make or break. If we do not get CL football then it would be over 5 years without CL football.

In what way is it make or break?

If we fail to qualify for CL this year, we won't go bust. Despite our last financial statement showing an increase in debt, it is not indicative of our current state - it's a FY behind. Our upcoming financial statement in April/June 2014 will show both debt reduction and increased sponsorship revenue.

Our CL pursuits won't break us financially if we fail this year, we may feel it as a fan base but I think it would unfair not to give Rodgers at least 3 seasons

Because it would be five years out of the CL. Players will not look at us as a club with 5 years out of CL. We already missed out on Mkhitaryan to Dortmund because lack of CL football. Suarez wanting to leave for the same reason.

Will Coutinho, Agger and Sturridge all want to do the same

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:35 pm wrote:I think the approach of steady and sustained is a good model but we are lacking 3/4 quality players. Once those 3/4 players are in then the scouting teams job is made easier by having less to worry about and focus on as we would have the spine of good team already in place. From there it's easier to push on to 3rd or 2nd or a title challenge. Right now to ask BR to take us from 7th to 4th is asking too much. He needs to sign the right players but he needs money to do it. He needs the sort of money FSG spend in their 1st season.

There is also the added benefit that if the club is seen to be spending money on quality players then that's an indication of their willingness to push on to the players. Our failings in this space have meant that when we do get hold of a truly talented player such as a Suarez or Torres they soon become of the opinion they need to move on as the club are not being ambitious.

Also on FSG's spending how much of that has actually been their own? If you take away the money we got in for Torres it's probably not much.

good post.
when rodgers has his core of players then id hope we will be in a position to spend our yearly budgets on one player to push us that extra bit to the league.id love to know how much of the actual profit goes back in to the team, 40% maybe 50%.
buying overpriced players has cost us in the past but so has loan deals. we need to be getting better money for the players we dont want rather than loaning till their deals expire or as in reina's case seriously lowering his value, and the thoughts of only getting 7 for skrtel is cringing never mind him going on loan. this extra money could be the difference in getting better players.
the torres fund sparked a spend and the suarez one will do the same and probably coutinho after that before we can get a real challenge going and id think FSG would be happy as long as the balance sheets add up.
no one knows if their way will eventually lead to a title or not but if it is to succeed then its at a minimum 6 - 8 years away

redno7 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:03 pm wrote:Surely we should be happy campers if FSG can bring in 5 players (assuming we get Papadopolis and flog Skrtle) and have a net spend of ZERO.?

The owners would be happy but it would depend on the quality of the players. So far the quality bought isn't good enough to get us into the CL - Pappadoulus is a step forward but as Bav has said we need about 4/5 players of that quality to get us in the fight for CL.