Liverpool FC Forum

Does appear like the days of spending big money are over under the ownership of FSG.

I can't make my mind up on what their motives are.  They are certainly trying to get the wage bill down and don't appear to want to invest much in terms of players.  We are basically spending what we generate from sales/slashing wages.  Now it depends what you think their reasons are.

Are they trying to make the club more sustainable in the long run, convinced that FFP will kick in and we will then be in a strong position to compete on a more level playing field with a lower wage bill than our rivals and a strong youth set up?  Or are we being asset stripped perhaps in preparation for being sold on to new owners at a profit compared to what they purchased us for?  The worrying thing for me is the complete lack of progress on the stadium front, which does make me question whether FSG are in this for the long haul.  The third possibility is that they are happy with a 'feeder club' model such as Arsenal's which probably makes us profitable for them in the longer term, without them either wanting to sell us or challenge for honours (which would be seen as a bonus rather than expectation).

I'm prepared to see what happens before the window shuts before I decide.  Maybe things will be a bit clearer by then.

Benny The Noon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:39 pm wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:26 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:04 pm wrote:When have I claimed BR should be sacked ?

Plenty didnt mind demanding Kenny go after one full season despite winning a trophy - dont even compare Rafa's first season with BR's. Rafa was left with a poor squad that had also lost his only quality striker. Rafa then spent about £20mil but bought quality - won the CL and then led us through our most fruitful period in the last 20 years, even Rafa's first season was better than BRs . BR inherited a squad that got to two cup finals and us into Europe. BR then spent close to £30mil whilst removing the club of its expirence - that was BR's choice. Last season wasnt acceptable no matter how many years into a plan he is - because he we don't have an acceptable season this season then we will need to find someone who can make us work and not someone who has achieved virtually nothing as a manager. No top club would have touched BR as their manager and if he died by deliver this season then he will need to be replaced. But he is getting more of a free ride than our previous two managers by a long way.

The best managers make things work with what they have got to work with - that's what Rafa did with a squad that was ripped apart as he arrived - the best managers adapt to the players. BR has done nothing yet to show he has the adaptability or managerial skill to achieve what our club needs - if he can't move away from his tactics when they clearly don't work then he won't be in the job long.

BR needs to earn his stripes and so far it isn't good enough - it maybe good enough for you but it isn't for me

You are right, plenty didn't mind asking for Kenny's head after the first season. The same types as you this season with Rodgers.

I haven't asked for his head

How can you use the argument that Benitez inherited a poor squad with no real strike force when it was the very same squad that won the CL. It either was good or not good enough, across all competitions. Make your mind up.

Why do you think we went on to win the CL ? Because Rafa first spent his money well by buying players like Xabi and Garcia - something BR didn't - he then tailored his tactics to suit the players he was left with , he used his managerial ability to figure out which tactics worked against which team and which ones suited the players we had at the time - he moved Gerrard to  get the best out of him . BR has stuck to his tactics even if they don't suit the players we have and tried to force square pegs into round holes - he hasn't been able to adapt to the opposition he is facing and adapt to the player we have

I am using Benitez to illustrate the stupid positions you take. Benitez hit the ground running by winning the CL, without that win he would have failed to qualify for the following season CL, courtesy of his first season league position. His league performance in his first season was unacceptable by your own definition. But due to the amazing fanbase we are, both Houllier and Benitez got full backing from us to allow them to implement the system they wanted to implement. Its that loyal characteristic that makes an LFC supporter unique.

In Rafas first season the league finish was unacceptable but the season was a success because he won the greatest club trophy in the game - even though they were trying to implement their own systems they were still finding success. BRs first league season was unacceptable , his cup efforts were unacceptable so the season overall was unacceptable - if BR had found success in either of the cups then the season would have been a success.

I've spent enough energy debunking your myths and untwisting your manipulative posts, I've come to realise that you probably realise your opinions and positions are flawed but pride prevents you admitting to it. No doubt if Rodgers is a success you'll go missing.

You haven't debunked any myths but I'm still waiting for you to show me when someone in the prem has done what Dortmund did or have managed to get into the CL from the lower places without spending a lot of money.

If Rodgers is a success I won't have gone missing anywhere - will be right here. But if as I expect the managers and the owners plan falls flat on its face because its pure fantasy then I wonder where you will be- still clinging onto their dream no doubt.

I seem to recall Everton getting into the champions league one year, didn't last long but they got in,without spending much money.

they did - they took advantage of us having a poor season in the league and sneaked in - never been back since

Benny The Noon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:27 pm wrote:they did - they took advantage of us having a poor season in the league and sneaked in - never been back since

That won't happen any time soon in the PL, a team coming from nowhere and breaking into the top 4 without a significant net spend.  When Everton did it, the top 4 had been dominated by us, Arsenal, Chelsea and United.  You only needed one team to slip up because pretty much nobody else in the league was strong enough to challenge.

Now you've got those 4 along with Spurs, Man City and Everton in their own right who are all up there.  A team coming from nowhere would have to finish above 4 of those 7 teams rather than 1 of 4, it's a lot harder to do.

And comparisons with Dortmund aren't really applicable here.  Yes they built a team on a shoestring budget, but the Bundeslige is much weaker overall than the Premiership team for team, albeit Bayern and Dortmund were better than any Prem side this year.  But below those 2 it's a weaker league where a team can come from nowhere (like Dortmund) and win the league basically if they can finish above Bayern, because everyone else is so inconsistent.

I've said before that the way we're going (cutting the wage bill and seemingly selling to buy) we can still make top 4, but doing it consistently will be difficult without spending bigger on better players.  Dortmund will find that out over the next few seasons.  I think their better players will gradually get cherry-picked and they'll cease to be a force because they don't pay top dollar in wages either (like us).

That's already happened with Goetze leaving - Lewdonski and Rues will follow then players like Gundegon

I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am wrote:I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

And what happens if we don't qualify SCS ?

Will you then realise what is needed to get into the CL - will you then realise the "Dortmund" way can't work in the perm

john craig » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:17 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:27 pm wrote:they did - they took advantage of us having a poor season in the league and sneaked in - never been back since

I've said before that the way we're going (cutting the wage bill and seemingly selling to buy) we can still make top 4, but doing it consistently will be difficult without spending bigger on better players.  Dortmund will find that out over the next few seasons.  I think their better players will gradually get cherry-picked and they'll cease to be a force because they don't pay top dollar in wages either (like us).

Agree. IMO we need a couple of big summers to get top players in, the trouble is attracting them without champions league football. Only the top 3 pay top dollar in fees and wages. Us, Arsenal and Spurs are all in the same boat.

If we look over the last four years (primarily as the odd season can be a fluke if you sell a player for big money like Utd did with Ronaldo)

Spurs:
Season 12/13 Net spend: -£1,300,000
Season 11/12 Net spend:  -£27,000,000
Season 10/11 Net spend: £17,500,000
Season 09/10 Net spend: -£1,000,000
Total net over 4 seasons:  -£11.8m

Arsenal over the same period:
£8,600,000
-£17,550,000
£6,800,000
-£31,000,000
Total net over 4 seasons:  -£33.1m

Odd seasons come and go, but neither owner is investing a large amount of money. Both our direct competitors for 4th only spend what they receive. 

Spurs this summer have spent £24m so far, but that could all change if they sell Bale for silly money. Some of that would be reinvested, but if they do sell Bale, they will finish the summer in profit in terms of transfers.

Just compare those figures above to our recent net spend:
£40,800,000
£35,350,000
-£5,150,000
-£8,650,000
Total net over 4 seasons:  +£62.35m

If we did go all out and invest a large sum of money, added to what we bring in from player sales, (a) there’s no guarantee we’d make top 4 anyway and (b) not many world quality players want to come and play for a club not in Europe, regardless of how much money you chuck at them.

When Sheikh Mansour bought Man city in 2008, he could afford pay record transfer fees and wages, but they weren’t in Europe, so they couldn’t attract exactly who they wanted, so they bought players like Jo for £18m, SWP for £9m, £12m for Wayne Bridge, £17.5m for Santa Cruz and £22m for lescott, as well as the exceptions to the rule who did move for the money like £32m on Robinho.

It took a NET spend of £327m in 3 years to get them in the champions league. Now our owners were never going to do that, but we knew that from day one.  They have always maintained we should be fairly self sufficient, much like Arsenal and Spurs are.

Like I said at the top of this post, I personally think we do need to keep splurging the cash, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

At the end of the day I don’t think it’s necessarily just the owners letting us down here – it’s really really bad transfer dealings over a sustained period.

Edit: just to clarify - I still think the owners to spend more cash, I'm just saying that  if they want to run us with an average net spend of zero, ie only spending what we receive just like Arsenal and Spurs have done in the last 4 years (which has seen one or both of them in  the champions league) then after they spend an extra £75m over two seasons, it probably starts to look like we're buying the wrong players, rather than them  not investing additional money over and above what we receive.

Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am wrote:I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

And what happens if we don't qualify SCS ?

Will you then realise what is needed to get into the CL - will you then realise the "Dortmund" way can't work in the perm

Its not just about getting into the CL though. Thats only step 1.  We're not going to do an Arsenal and celebrate 4th place.
Under Rodgers we may well finish in the top 4.  I personally don't think it will be next season but we might do at some point. 

Beyond that though, I still don't think these owners will have enough funds to help us compete if we get to that point.
Obviously the CL will bring in some more money but will be enough to get us challenging beyond top 4? 

My issue is not with Rodgers or any future manager but with the owners.  I don't think they'll provide us with the funds needed to get back to properly challenging.

jacdaniel » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:08 am wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am wrote:I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

And what happens if we don't qualify SCS ?

Will you then realise what is needed to get into the CL - will you then realise the "Dortmund" way can't work in the perm

Its not just about getting into the CL though. Thats only step 1.  We're not going to do an Arsenal and celebrate 4th place.
Under Rodgers we may well finish in the top 4.  I personally don't think it will be next season but we might do at some point. 

Beyond that though, I still don't think these owners will have enough funds to help us compete if we get to that point.
Obviously the CL will bring in some more money but will be enough to get us challenging beyond top 4? 

My issue is not with Rodgers or any future manager but with the owners.  I don't think they'll provide us with the funds needed to get back to properly challenging.

My main issue is with the owners - a top quality manager may get us into the top 4 each season but the next step up to winning the title would require serious funding. Its not a cheap game winning the prem and i dont think our owners realise this. When they do that is when they will either dip into their pockets or sell up to someone who wants to win. They are an Investement company - they will look for profits not trophies

Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am wrote:I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

And what happens if we don't qualify SCS ?

Will you then realise what is needed to get into the CL - will you then realise the "Dortmund" way can't work in the perm

If it doesn't happen then Rodgers has failed, and by implication FSG. I have no problem with my stance, I support the manager like I have with every previous manager - because that is how I feel a LFC supporter should act.

When I look at the squabbling and plastic-ness of other support bases, I count myself lucky to support a team where our team, management and support base are treated as one big family.

You are not willing to support the manager until he deserves your approval with success, however I prefer to support the manager with a view to aiding the pursuit of such success. Imagine Anfield with 45,000 Benny The Noons. It would be just like Chelsea.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:07 pm wrote:If it doesn't happen then Rodgers has failed, and by implication FSG. I have no problem with my stance, I support the manager like I have with every previous manager - because that is how I feel a LFC supporter should act.

When I look at the squabbling and plastic-ness of other support bases, I count myself lucky to support a team where our team, management and support base are treated as one big family.

You are not willing to support the manager until he deserves your approval with success, however I prefer to support the manager with a view to aiding the pursuit of such success. Imagine Anfield with 45,000 Benny The Noons. It would be just like Chelsea.

+ 1

Hold your f*cking horses there pal - every single player and the team gets my support as soon as that whistle blows, this is a forum where it's free to discuss our opinions. Just because some people don't think the manager or owners aren't good enough that doesn't mean that come the day the game is played they aren't supporting the team.

Some people clearly don't know the clear definition between talking about the club and what actually happens at the match.

Don't lecture people on support unless you can tell me you haven't had one bad word or critisim about any player , manager or owner.

You're not some super fan hero because you profess undying support on a forum and if you think a LFC shouldn't air his concerns on a forum because that's not how we act then not many people act like LFC fans in your eyes.

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:15 pm wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:07 pm wrote:If it doesn't happen then Rodgers has failed, and by implication FSG. I have no problem with my stance, I support the manager like I have with every previous manager - because that is how I feel a LFC supporter should act.

When I look at the squabbling and plastic-ness of other support bases, I count myself lucky to support a team where our team, management and support base are treated as one big family.

You are not willing to support the manager until he deserves your approval with success, however I prefer to support the manager with a view to aiding the pursuit of such success. Imagine Anfield with 45,000 Benny The Noons. It would be just like Chelsea.

+ 1

Yes I remember your support of Hodgson - fully behind him werent you.

If people are going to lecture others about support then they best ensure they are whiter than white

You are far from untouchable RBG because you were firmly opposed to Hodgson.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:07 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:39 am wrote:

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am wrote:I look forward to the backtracking and excuses when we qualify for the CL under Rodgers

And what happens if we don't qualify SCS ?

Will you then realise what is needed to get into the CL - will you then realise the "Dortmund" way can't work in the perm

If it doesn't happen then Rodgers has failed, and by implication FSG. I have no problem with my stance, I support the manager like I have with every previous manager - because that is how I feel a LFC supporter should act.

When I look at the squabbling and plastic-ness of other support bases, I count myself lucky to support a team where our team, management and support base are treated as one big family.

You are not willing to support the manager until he deserves your approval with success, however I prefer to support the manager with a view to aiding the pursuit of such success. Imagine Anfield with 45,000 Benny The Noons. It would be just like Chelsea.

Wouldn't neccesarily say that Rodgers had failed in that case though.  Perhaps not been provided with the tools for the job. 
A bit like Rafa towards the end in particular. 

For me it all comes back to us not been able to compete financially. 

Some people will point out that we've made mistakes in the transfer market.  Of course we have.  Every team does.
For us though, we can't afford to make mistakes which again goes back to not having enough money.

Football is depressing sometimes