Liverpool FC Forum

aCe' » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 pm wrote:Having seen the players we are linked with/already signed, I have ZERO confidence that the manager will be able to replace Suarez with players of a similar caliber regardless of what we get for him.

The only positive thing in what we are doing now is that we are going for players from outside the premier league and as such wont have to pay the inflated prices we paid for average players like Downing, Carroll, Henderson..etc

We are however, still going for average players. Players who have proven NOTHING at the top level and ones who are being sought after by other mid-table clubs across Europe. As things stand, I cant see any of the players we are being linked with (K.Toure, Atsu, Aspas, Mignolet) improving the starting 11 we have today. Our other competitors for 4th place (Arsenal & Tottenham) are going after the likes of Higuain, Jovetic and Damiao; tells you all you need to know about why we are where we are.

I can only hope that Rodgers somehow convinces the likes of Suarez and Reina to stay at the club for at least another year and that we bring in at least one player who can come in and improve our starting 11 from day 1.

We haven't been able to attract the same players that Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc attract for decades now, not only now. I don't think it's as simple as signing the top crop players to succeed. We haven't been able to do that even since under Houllier and Rafa. Who was Sami Hyppia when we signed him? No on knew him. Who was Henchos? Who was Alonso when we first signed him? Who was Mascherano? I think under Rafa, only Torres was a high profile signing. If the manager has a game plan, and if we sign the right players to fit the system, we can always compete.

aCe' » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 pm wrote:Having seen the players we are linked with/already signed, I have ZERO confidence that the manager will be able to replace Suarez with players of a similar caliber regardless of what we get for him.

The only positive thing in what we are doing now is that we are going for players from outside the premier league and as such wont have to pay the inflated prices we paid for average players like Downing, Carroll, Henderson..etc

We are however, still going for average players. Players who have proven NOTHING at the top level and ones who are being sought after by other mid-table clubs across Europe. As things stand, I cant see any of the players we are being linked with (K.Toure, Atsu, Aspas, Mignolet) improving the starting 11 we have today. Our other competitors for 4th place (Arsenal & Tottenham) are going after the likes of Higuain, Jovetic and Damiao; tells you all you need to know about why we are where we are.

I can only hope that Rodgers somehow convinces the likes of Suarez and Reina to stay at the club for at least another year and that we bring in at least one player who can come in and improve our starting 11 from day 1.

I don't agree mate.

We've troden the sign 'big names' approach before (Andy Carroll is a prime example) and all we've found is that spending big doesn't always work. That's not to say you don't splash the cash when needed, and the January signings of Struridge and Coutinho prove's that BR will spend money when he sees a footballer he likes.

The transfer window hasn't opened yet and I think we need to give the manager some time before writing off next season. I for one think the transfer cash from Carroll (17 million) and Suarez (50 million) would give BR some real spending power.  And, lets not forget, LFC is still one of the biggest clubs in the world and that stands head and shoulders above many clubs plying their trade in the CL and wafer cup.

maguskwt » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:10 pm wrote:

aCe' » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 pm wrote:Having seen the players we are linked with/already signed, I have ZERO confidence that the manager will be able to replace Suarez with players of a similar caliber regardless of what we get for him.

The only positive thing in what we are doing now is that we are going for players from outside the premier league and as such wont have to pay the inflated prices we paid for average players like Downing, Carroll, Henderson..etc

We are however, still going for average players. Players who have proven NOTHING at the top level and ones who are being sought after by other mid-table clubs across Europe. As things stand, I cant see any of the players we are being linked with (K.Toure, Atsu, Aspas, Mignolet) improving the starting 11 we have today. Our other competitors for 4th place (Arsenal & Tottenham) are going after the likes of Higuain, Jovetic and Damiao; tells you all you need to know about why we are where we are.

I can only hope that Rodgers somehow convinces the likes of Suarez and Reina to stay at the club for at least another year and that we bring in at least one player who can come in and improve our starting 11 from day 1.

We haven't been able to attract the same players that Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc attract for decades now, not only now. I don't think it's as simple as signing the top crop players to succeed. We haven't been able to do that even since under Houllier and Rafa. Who was Sami Hyppia when we signed him? No on knew him. Who was Henchos? Who was Alonso when we first signed him? Who was Mascherano? I think under Rafa, only Torres was a high profile signing. If the manager has a game plan, and if we sign the right players to fit the system, we can always compete.

Well said that man!
Who was Keegan? Who was Rush? Who was Whelan? Who was Aldridge? Who was Reina? Yet look at what they became. All this "we have to spend big to win anything" is just brainwashing bullsh'it and people are swallowing it. We need to get back to the team spirit philosophy which won us trophies.
Superstars need not apply...

and Keegan, some unknown from Doncaster.

the game has changed, even an old luddite like me can see that.
its pointless saying `we signed keegan from doncaster and rush from chester` because that just wouldnt happen these days.
players like keegan and rush would have been hoovered up by the big teams acadamies years before they got anywhere near the doncaster or chester first teams.
clubs back then tended to recruit young players only from the local area but that doesnt happen these days.
dont forget when we signed ian rush we payed a WORLD record fee for a U21 player, do you honestly think anyone showing that much potential as a lad would be playing in a footballing backwater like chester today?
when we signed keegan from doncaster and rush from chester that wasnt nothing special for the time, most of the big clubs recruited their star players from lower league teams in england and scotland. steve coppell was a star for united and england in the 70`s and they got him from tranmere rovers, his wing partner at united gordon hill (united were praised in the 70`s for having 2 very attacking wingers) came from millwall. that was the norm.
it`s a very different game these days. back then if your team was in the $h1te you just went north of the border and bought a couple of scottish players, these days that philosophy would get you relegated.

maguskwt » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:10 pm wrote:

aCe' » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:21 pm wrote:Having seen the players we are linked with/already signed, I have ZERO confidence that the manager will be able to replace Suarez with players of a similar caliber regardless of what we get for him.

The only positive thing in what we are doing now is that we are going for players from outside the premier league and as such wont have to pay the inflated prices we paid for average players like Downing, Carroll, Henderson..etc

We are however, still going for average players. Players who have proven NOTHING at the top level and ones who are being sought after by other mid-table clubs across Europe. As things stand, I cant see any of the players we are being linked with (K.Toure, Atsu, Aspas, Mignolet) improving the starting 11 we have today. Our other competitors for 4th place (Arsenal & Tottenham) are going after the likes of Higuain, Jovetic and Damiao; tells you all you need to know about why we are where we are.

I can only hope that Rodgers somehow convinces the likes of Suarez and Reina to stay at the club for at least another year and that we bring in at least one player who can come in and improve our starting 11 from day 1.

We haven't been able to attract the same players that Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc attract for decades now, not only now. I don't think it's as simple as signing the top crop players to succeed. We haven't been able to do that even since under Houllier and Rafa. Who was Sami Hyppia when we signed him? No on knew him. Who was Henchos? Who was Alonso when we first signed him? Who was Mascherano? I think under Rafa, only Torres was a high profile signing. If the manager has a game plan, and if we sign the right players to fit the system, we can always compete.

Well Henchoz was already a prem regular , Alonso was highly sought after , Mascherano was a regular Argentinian international who had played in the World Cup and was also highly sought after , Sami was also a regular international. They werent unproven unknowns

We were able to attract players like Xabi, Torres and Masher because we were in the CL and managed by a proven quality manager.

aCe' » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:21 pm wrote:Having seen the players we are linked with/already signed, I have ZERO confidence that the manager will be able to replace Suarez with players of a similar caliber regardless of what we get for him.

The only positive thing in what we are doing now is that we are going for players from outside the premier league and as such wont have to pay the inflated prices we paid for average players like Downing, Carroll, Henderson..etc

We are however, still going for average players. Players who have proven NOTHING at the top level and ones who are being sought after by other mid-table clubs across Europe. As things stand, I cant see any of the players we are being linked with (K.Toure, Atsu, Aspas, Mignolet) improving the starting 11 we have today. Our other competitors for 4th place (Arsenal & Tottenham) are going after the likes of Higuain, Jovetic and Damiao; tells you all you need to know about why we are where we are.

I can only hope that Rodgers somehow convinces the likes of Suarez and Reina to stay at the club for at least another year and that we bring in at least one player who can come in and improve our starting 11 from day 1.

Well said again

For every one unknown player we sign who turns out to be a success, I can name 10 who turned out to be total flops. Im not quite sure you can say the same about the big name purchases (and I dont agree with many of the names being thrown around as unknown signings, Who was Mascherano ? Really ? Alonso the unknown was wanted by Real Madrid before we signed him). Andy Carroll, Downing, and Henderson were average players when we signed them. Anyone who thinks/thought that the 35mill was a reflection of his ability are clearly out of their minds. That number was more a reflection of A) his nationality & B) his potential. Same could be said about Henderson. All 3 were bad buys before we got them.

And about the whole us not being able to attract the same players as Utd, City and Chlesea, I agree. Arsenal ? Not so much. If you look at the players theyve signed over the past few years and most of the names they're currently linked with, they are mostly players who are either not wanted by their clubs (Higuain) or players who play for smaller clubs and would be willing to sign for a club like Liverpool if we came in for them. Regardless, there are quite a few top class players we can go for who would be delighted to sign for a club like us. WE DONT SEEM TO BE INTERESTED OR WILLING TO GO AFTER THEM. The likes of Eriksen, Navas, Ben Arfa, Benteke, M.Gomez...etc

Instead, we choose to go for quantity (3-4 unproven players) who cost a combined sum that would realistically allow us to bring in 2 top quality players. For me, our transfer strategy has been the primary reason for our recent decline over the last 3-4 seasons and when you look at the money we spent and the players we got for that money, the connection is not that hard to make. For the life of me, I cant understand how some still endorse this strategy given what we've been through. We already have enough players in our squad today who: 'have potential', 'could come good', 'are still young', 'are highly touted', 'should reproduce the form they showed at their previous midtable side'...etc etc

If we are going to go out and spend 40mill in new transfers, let's make it worth our investment for a change.

Hard to disagree with that

One thing people seem to forget is that everybody was raving about Newcastle's ability to pull gems for a few million pounds on a consistent basis, and probably because they ended up near the top of the table one season.  Well this season they continued to buy players like that, and some who really have played well, and yet look where they are now- barely surviving relegation.

Even when you find these gems who turn out good, it doesn't always work out well for you.  The simple fact is Newcastle kept switching a lot of their players around, and we look to be doing the same.  Until we can get a base of players to build the team around, we will struggle to climb the table much at all.

i think our wage structure has as much to do with us not recruiting the top prospects as much as anything else.
although we are prepared to pay top dollar it`s only to players who prove on the pitch that they are worth the big wages, that may sound logical and reasonable but football isnt exactly a logical and reasonable game.
although suarez is earning £100,000+ a week now he arrived here on, according to some reports, £26,000 a week. 26 grand isnt going to impress players who are being told they are the next ronaldo or messi.
i cant see us recruiting top top talent by paying reasonable wages and not having CL footy.
dont get me wrong it`s hard to argue against the common sense approach the club is using but will we be able compete against the the super rich teams above us being so financially prudent?

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:06 pm wrote:i think our wage structure has as much to do with us not recruiting the top prospects as much as anything else.
although we are prepared to pay top dollar it`s only to players who prove on the pitch that they are worth the big wages, that may sound logical and reasonable but football isnt exactly a logical and reasonable game.
although suarez is earning £100,000+ a week now he arrived here on, according to some reports, £26,000 a week. 26 grand isnt going to impress players who are being told they are the next ronaldo or messi.
i cant see us recruiting top top talent by paying reasonable wages and not having CL footy.
dont get me wrong it`s hard to argue against the common sense approach the club is using but will we be able compete against the the super rich teams above us being so financially prudent?

Agree on the wage structure probably inhibiting us.

But building a good team is still possible with these restrictions.  Spurs have a wage structure similar to ours and they've done really well in the transfer market over recent years I think.  Borussia Dortmund are the best example though - I saw Bam's post recently where he broke down what they'd spent on that team and it's less than 35 mil!  Unbelievable.  It wasn't as if they all came through the youth system either, only 2 of them did, the rest were signed for reasonably modest fees, the likes of Subotic, Gundogan, Bender, Hummels, Lewandowski.  Only Reus at 14 mil was a relatively big spend. But even Dortmund, for all their recent progress and relative success, will lose their best players as they have a wage structure and can't offer what Bayern can domestically. 

Like I said in a recent thread we started, we can still have some success with this model - aim for CL qualification and maybe win the odd trophy.  But it will be near impossible to win the league - we have 3 fu.cking Bayerns in our league plus good sides like Arsenal and Spurs to contend with.

It's going to be hard enough to qualify for the CL let alone win titles - we have 5 teams ahead of us - all 5 will strengthen greatly during the summer with I expect some big players to arrive - especially at Chelsea and City. Arsenal are going to spend a decent amount of money and if Bale does leave then Spurs won't be shy with their money.

We are going to have to spend a great deal just to keep up let alone get past 2 of them

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:06 pm wrote:i think our wage structure has as much to do with us not recruiting the top prospects as much as anything else.
although we are prepared to pay top dollar it`s only to players who prove on the pitch that they are worth the big wages, that may sound logical and reasonable but football isnt exactly a logical and reasonable game.
although suarez is earning £100,000+ a week now he arrived here on, according to some reports, £26,000 a week. 26 grand isnt going to impress players who are being told they are the next ronaldo or messi.
i cant see us recruiting top top talent by paying reasonable wages and not having CL footy.
dont get me wrong it`s hard to argue against the common sense approach the club is using but will we be able compete against the the super rich teams above us being so financially prudent?

john craig » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:28 pm wrote:Agree on the wage structure probably inhibiting us.

But building a good team is still possible with these restrictions.  Spurs have a wage structure similar to ours and they've done really well in the transfer market over recent years I think.  Borussia Dortmund are the best example though - I saw Bam's post recently where he broke down what they'd spent on that team and it's less than 35 mil!  Unbelievable.  It wasn't as if they all came through the youth system either, only 2 of them did, the rest were signed for reasonably modest fees, the likes of Subotic, Gundogan, Bender, Hummels, Lewandowski.  Only Reus at 14 mil was a relatively big spend. But even Dortmund, for all their recent progress and relative success, will lose their best players as they have a wage structure and can't offer what Bayern can domestically. 

Like I said in a recent thread we started, we can still have some success with this model - aim for CL qualification and maybe win the odd trophy.  But it will be near impossible to win the league - we have 3 fu.cking Bayerns in our league plus good sides like Arsenal and Spurs to contend with.

While I do agree that our wage structure has -to some extent- limited our chances of attracting the top talents, I dont think that it can realistically be used as an excuse for : A) our big failures in the transfer market over the last 3 years (Suarez, Coutinho and Enrique aside) & B) us drifting further away from the likes of ManUtd, Arsenal and Tottenham.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb:
Our overall player wages in the last reputable club wages report I found (dating back to 2010/2011) showed that we paid 11mill more than Arsenal did in wages , and close to 45mill  more than Tottenham. THATS PER SEASON. We were 4th on the list and above us were ManUtd who paid 18mill more than we did.
What I'm trying to say is this, we might not be able to offer a player like Saurez 200K p/w, but we're definitely capable of paying the wages of the likes of Podolski, Giroud, Vertonghen, Parker...etc
Realistically, there aren't many players who fall in that restricted wage bracket (120k and above) who would be interested in joining our club in the first place.


John Craig:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying especially the part about it only taking us so far. But for now, I think all of us would be more than satisfied if we can just get to the CL. Borussia Dortmund are an exception to the rule rathen than the norm though. They operate in a completely different market and have one of the best, if not the best, young managers in the game. Their scouting over the last 5 or so years has been phenomenal (the only other explanation is that they got incredibly lucky) and I would say over 80% of the players they brought in turned out to be excellent players. Lets not forget though that many of the players they brought in were players who excelled at clubs in the bundesliga and many of them were already internationals before signing for Dortmund. Gundogan: German international before signing, Hummels: signed from Bayern, German International, Lewandoski: Polish International, played in Europa League, 24 goals 10 assists in 44 games before moving, Reus: One of the stars of Bundesliga & German national team the season before, 23 goals 14 assists in 43 games the season before moving...etc etc

Its nothing like what we seem to be doing now. Their model CANNOT be replicated in the English game unless we go out and search for international players who have had phenomenal seasons in the French league and -to a lesser extent- the Italian or German league. We'd have to go out and buy Baines, Jagielka, Cabaye, Michu, Benteke..etc  to do something similar to what they did with local talent.     

But the good thing is, we dont need to follow their model. We already have a very good core of players and all we need is a few top additions to take the side to the next level. Our wage structure imo is nowhere near as limiting as some are suggesting.

ace a lot has changed at this club since 2010/11, i think the purse strings have tightened dramatically since then.
FSG said themselves that significantly reducing the wage bill was one of their top priorities. they said it was unsustainable for the club to continue in the manner it was. those figures from 2011 were probably the high water mark.