Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:46 pm

arsenal fans would kill to win a trophy of any kind right now. it's not even as if they're actually challenging for the league year in year out. they're merely happy to finish 4th but at least they've got an excuse i suppose in that they've got a stadium to pay off. nobody will remember them getting knocked out in the last 16/quarter finals of the champions league in 50 years time. all they'll remember is what they won and they've won nothing for 7 years.

when van persie looks back on his career, presuming he stays at arsenal, he'll know that he's underachieved. for all the big games he's played in the champions league he's never actually won anything.

by **supersub** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:49 pm

LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:40 pm wrote:What about a 17th place league finish plus a Carling Cup win (followed by an open top bus tour) versus a 2nd place finish and a title challenge?

It isn't simply about winning now, it's about building a team that can continue to win into the future and win the bigger, more prestigious trophies. You would be a lot more confident that we had a team capable of doing just that if we were in the top four, rather than 8th.

We're not 17th last time I looked......League Cup is definitely in the Trophy room (I've seen it ) ...don't believe there are any plans for an open top bus tour as yet......Although there is a cavalcade of Liverpool Diehards travelling to Wembley on the 5th May for drinks and a footy match if you care to join us :wwww

by **parchpea** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:48 pm

Well we are where we are now anyway so lets enjoy the FA Cup final
and then set our sights on next year and what we do about that.

Whatever Fenway decide staff wise next year it will surely be all
about 4th and ensuring we put together a management team and
playing staff that can put points on that board every week in the
Premiership.

The Wembley year will be gone and the only focus should be about
reshaping the team ready to fight for 4th and showing a consistent
level of performance fitting of this football club.

The Cup cards will have been dealt, the feel good factor card played,
and next year league results will massive for everyone concerned
right from when that first ball is kicked.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:50 pm

supersub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:49 pm wrote:
LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:40 pm wrote:What about a 17th place league finish plus a Carling Cup win (followed by an open top bus tour) versus a 2nd place finish and a title challenge?

It isn't simply about winning now, it's about building a team that can continue to win into the future and win the bigger, more prestigious trophies. You would be a lot more confident that we had a team capable of doing just that if we were in the top four, rather than 8th.

We're not 17th last time I looked......League Cup is definitely in the Trophy room (I've seen it ) ...don't believe there are any plans for an open top bus tour as yet......Although there is a cavalcade of Liverpool Diehards travelling to Wembley on the 5th May for drinks and a footy match if you care to join us

It was a hypothetical question. Nobody would rather have fourth for fourth's sake or second for second's sake, but they might take the progress that it signals in addition to the opportunity it offers in terms of the ability to sign better players if the alternative is a domestic cup win with a team that shows a worrying lack of progress in the league. That's because the aim is to sustain our success; to win in the present and in the future, and a team that can finish fourth or second and has open to it the opportunities offered by playing CL football, is arguably better capable of doing that than a side that wins a domestic cup but finishes eighth or seventeenth. If our league position short of finishing first was "pointless" then we should be content with finishing 17th every season and winning the domestic trophies.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:12 pm

A fourth place finish in the league and getting knocked out of the Carling and FA cups in the first round, or an 8th place finish in the league and winning both the Carling and FA cup.

Of those two options, what would represent more progress for the club on the road to achieving our medium to long term goals? And what would you say those medium to long term goals are?

by **supersub** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:31 pm

LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:50 pm wrote:
supersub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:49 pm wrote:
LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:40 pm wrote:What about a 17th place league finish plus a Carling Cup win (followed by an open top bus tour) versus a 2nd place finish and a title challenge?

It isn't simply about winning now, it's about building a team that can continue to win into the future and win the bigger, more prestigious trophies. You would be a lot more confident that we had a team capable of doing just that if we were in the top four, rather than 8th.

We're not 17th last time I looked......League Cup is definitely in the Trophy room (I've seen it ) ...don't believe there are any plans for an open top bus tour as yet......Although there is a cavalcade of Liverpool Diehards travelling to Wembley on the 5th May for drinks and a footy match if you care to join us

It was a hypothetical question. Nobody would rather have fourth for fourth's sake or second for second's sake, but they might take the progress that it signals in addition to the opportunity it offers in terms of the ability to sign better players if the alternative is a domestic cup win with a team that shows a worrying lack of progress in the league. That's because the aim is to sustain our success; to win in the present and in the future, and a team that can finish fourth or second and has open to it the opportunities offered by playing CL football, is arguably better capable of doing that than a side that wins a domestic cup but finishes eighth or seventeenth. If our league position short of finishing first was "pointless" then we should be content with finishing 17th every season and winning the domestic trophies.

Well it's clear the difference between me and the others......I live in the present and facts, the others live by hypotheticals....we have a cup and I am truly grateful, we are in a cup final and I am truly grateful...we have had a difficult season in the league but in my opinion it's far from relegation performances and I have every faith that the draws that we have suffered this season could so easily be wins next season...fine line between 8th and 4th....but hey ho 33 years a season ticket holder I've experienced highs and lows...this season is a million miles from low, in my view !

by **supersub** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:34 pm

Cool Hand Luke » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:12 pm wrote:A fourth place finish in the league and getting knocked out of the Carling and FA cups in the first round, or an 8th place finish in the league and winning both the Carling and FA cup.

Of those two options, what would represent more progress for the club on the road to achieving our medium to long term goals? And what would you say those medium to long term goals are?

Is the medium to long term goals to win things or just to be a part of another competition...........I certainly hope no self respecting Liverpool supporter wishes for an early exit in the cup competitions to advocate a major push for 4th place.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:09 pm

supersub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:31 pm wrote:Well it's clear the difference between me and the others......I live in the present and facts, the others live by hypotheticals....we have a cup and I am truly grateful, we are in a cup final and I am truly grateful...we have had a difficult season in the league but in my opinion it's far from relegation performances and I have every faith that the draws that we have suffered this season could so easily be wins next season...fine line between 8th and 4th ....but hey ho 33 years a season ticket holder I've experienced highs and lows...this season is a million miles from low, in my view !

It's not a question of "living by hypotheticals". The hypothetical simply serves to highlight the point that our league position obviously has a bearing on how successful the season has been. It's a measure of progress. A much longer, albeit different, measure to the 6 or 7 games it takes to win the League or FA cup. If the line between fourth and eithth is so fine and presumaby therefore the result of a combination of bad luck, dodgy refs and suspensions, then we should feel quite comfortable going into next season without making any major changes to the team. I happen to think that being 8th, 16 points behind Newcastle and level on pioints with Fulham after 34 games tells of a larger problem that we should be careful not to underestimate.

by **RedAnt** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:23 pm

LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:09 pm wrote:
supersub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:31 pm wrote:Well it's clear the difference between me and the others......I live in the present and facts, the others live by hypotheticals....we have a cup and I am truly grateful, we are in a cup final and I am truly grateful...we have had a difficult season in the league but in my opinion it's far from relegation performances and I have every faith that the draws that we have suffered this season could so easily be wins next season...fine line between 8th and 4th ....but hey ho 33 years a season ticket holder I've experienced highs and lows...this season is a million miles from low, in my view !

It's not a question of "living by hypotheticals". The hypothetical simply serves to highlight the point that our league position obviously has a bearing on how successful the season has been. It's a measure of progress. A much longer, albeit different, measure to the 6 or 7 games it takes to win the League or FA cup. If the line between fourth and eithth is so fine and presumaby therefore the result of a combination of bad luck, dodgy refs and suspensions, then we should feel quite comfortable going into next season without making any major changes to the team. I happen to think that being 8th, 16 points behind Newcastle and level on pioints with Fulham after 34 games tells of a larger problem that we should be careful not to underestimate.

I don't think anyone underestimates the larger problem. The larger problem is in fact being dealt with. Dealing with it began with our new owners, our new manager, the funds pumped in to the club and the new players signed. Not one of us who supports Kenny on these forums will be happy with this seasons league campaign. For some reason people seem to think that's what it means, that we're happy and accepting mediocrity. "Rose tinted specs" some call it. "Blind faith" others call it. It's not that at all. We're just prepared to be more patient and prepared to support the current manager who in all his history has an INCREDIBLE league record both as player and manager. So it's blind faith to some critics, but for me those same people are totally blinded to the reasoning, the patience, the history. We've been here before and come through it.

Rebuilding a squad takes time, money, patience and a whole lotta hard work. This year we could bag two trophies. Next year we could have the trophies AND finish fourth or even higher. This season's been soooo bizzarre and generally fate has played against us. Maybe next year fate will smile on us and we'll win the lot.

After all, it's a funny old game. And I hope that never changes.

by **RedAnt** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:25 pm

RedAnt » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:23 pm wrote:
LFC2007 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:09 pm wrote:
supersub » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:31 pm wrote:Well it's clear the difference between me and the others......I live in the present and facts, the others live by hypotheticals....we have a cup and I am truly grateful, we are in a cup final and I am truly grateful...we have had a difficult season in the league but in my opinion it's far from relegation performances and I have every faith that the draws that we have suffered this season could so easily be wins next season...fine line between 8th and 4th ....but hey ho 33 years a season ticket holder I've experienced highs and lows...this season is a million miles from low, in my view !

It's not a question of "living by hypotheticals". The hypothetical simply serves to highlight the point that our league position obviously has a bearing on how successful the season has been. It's a measure of progress. A much longer, albeit different, measure to the 6 or 7 games it takes to win the League or FA cup. If the line between fourth and eithth is so fine and presumaby therefore the result of a combination of bad luck, dodgy refs and suspensions, then we should feel quite comfortable going into next season without making any major changes to the team. I happen to think that being 8th, 16 points behind Newcastle and level on pioints with Fulham after 34 games tells of a larger problem that we should be careful not to underestimate.

I don't think anyone underestimates the larger problem. The larger problem is in fact being dealt with. Dealing with it began with our new owners, our new manager, the funds pumped in to the club and the new players signed. Not one of us who supports Kenny on these forums will be happy with this seasons league campaign. For some reason people seem to think that's what it means, that we're happy and accepting mediocrity simply because we're seeing the bigger picture and keeping faith with KK. "Rose tinted specs" some call it. "Blind faith" others call it. It's not that at all. We're just prepared to be more patient and prepared to support the current manager who in all his history has an INCREDIBLE league record both as player and manager. So it's blind faith to some critics, but for me those same people are totally blinded to the reasoning, the patience, the history. We've been here before and come through it.

Rebuilding a squad takes time, money, patience and a whole lotta hard work. This year we could bag two trophies. Next year we could have the trophies AND finish fourth or even higher. This season's been soooo bizzarre and generally fate has played against us. Maybe next year fate will smile on us and we'll win the lot.

After all, it's a funny old game. And I hope that never changes.

by **RedAnt** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:27 pm

Soz, quoted myself instead of editing.

by **Boxscarf** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:33 pm

supersub » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:53 pm wrote:Just too add ; I would appreciate a league win, just to lay the ghost and get value for my season ticket once and awhile but 2nd 3rd & 4th is hardly open top bus material

I don't think any Liverpool fan is suggesting that finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th is worthy of an open top bus tour around Merseyside. Top four challenges are necessary to increase revenue, to attract a better calibre of footballer and this will ultimately lead to more successful times ahead.

by **Boxscarf** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:40 pm

banana(real one) » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:42 pm wrote:Liverpool won the trophy no big club is interested in. Not success.

This is complete nonsense. The Carling Cup is never taken seriously until teams get into the semi-finals, then it becomes a big event.

If we win the FA Cup and end up with the domestic cup double, I'll be over the moon, but ideally a team with £100m of investment should be able to compete with the top four teams in the league, whilst winning trophies. It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

by **RedAnt** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:33 pm

Boxscarf » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:40 pm wrote:
banana(real one) » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:42 pm wrote:Liverpool won the trophy no big club is interested in. Not success.

This is complete nonsense. The Carling Cup is never taken seriously until teams get into the semi-finals, then it becomes a big event.

If we win the FA Cup and end up with the domestic cup double, I'll be over the moon, but ideally a team with £100m of investment should be able to compete with the top four teams in the league, whilst winning trophies. It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both.

This is true to an extent. £100m does NOT guarantee a top 4 finish though as we've just seen. Other teams are involved too, like Newcastle and Spurs. Newcastle haven't spent big, but they've gotten something right! Sometimes things just go right and Newcastle were the benificiaries (sp?). Sometimes, alas for us, things go wrong! But Newcastle didn't do well this season because they sold Carroll, or because they play the ball on the ground as some seem to think. Nor was it the appointment of Alan Pardrew. If lots of things go in your favour, you will do well. If things don't go in your favour, ya don't do well. That's nature. Sometimes luck, the Gods, whatever..sometimes they just smile on ya. And sometimes the clouds rain down buckets of sh*t on ya.

Wandered a little off topic there.

by **Kukilon** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:17 am

In the long run top four would be more important because it will mean more cup wins also.

But as a fan I sure as hell rather want trophies.

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