Liverpool FC Forum

by **devaney** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:34 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:Someone bluenose got banned from Woodison this year for calling Saha a "lazy french ba'stard" because it was deemed racist
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton....8400787

That's not really a punishment is it !!!!!!!

Luis YNWA

by **aCe'** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:39 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

by **jacdaniel** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:39 pm

I just hope this doesnt become a regular occurence now. Players have now seen that making a complaint with very little to no evidence can lead to a player being banned for 8 games.

Wonder if we'll see similar accusations being made left, right and centre as a result of this ridiculous ban.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:41 pm

From the Guardian

reddit this Steven Friel
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 21 December 2011 16.27 GMT Article history

Liverpool could seek arbitration, or go to the high court or even the European courts – but Luis Suárez may be better advised to try to put the racism furore behind him

Luis Suárez has 14 days to consider whether to appeal against his eight-match ban for racially abusing Patrice Evra from the date that Liverpool receive the written reasons of the Football Association's regulatory commission, not from Tuesday, which was the date of the decision. It is important to note that Suárez can only appeal against the level of the sanction not the actual verdict.

I would expect Liverpool to receive the written reasons quite soon – they are usually provided within three working days of the decision being announced, although the Christmas period may slow this down. Giving two weeks to decide whether to lodge an appeal is unusual. The usual directions for appeals against the decisions of the regulatory commission provide for a much tighter timetable.

If Suárez decides not to appeal, the decision will become binding. If he decides to appeal, he must provide written submissions and there will be a hearing, at which he will be represented by lawyers. The appeal board can reduce the sanction, but it can also increase the sanction and its decision is stated to be final and binding. But if it goes against Suárez, he may be inclined to try a further challenge.

The additional options he may try to challenge the decision include the following:

• He could bring arbitration proceedings under rule K of the FA's rules. Such an arbitration would be limited to a challenge to the validity of the decision on the grounds of ultra vires (including error of law), irrationality or procedural unfairness. An arbitration would probably take place behind closed doors before a three-person tribunal. The process would take months rather than weeks, and it is likely that the suspension and fine would take effect pending the arbitration.

• He could attempt to bring judicial review proceedings in the high court, but his chances of getting this type of action off the ground must be considered quite limited. In a challenge to the setting up of the Premier League in 1992, the high court decided that the FA was not subject to judicial review.

Regarding how the FA will have prepared for attempts at appeal, the regulatory commission will take great care in the drafting of its written decision. The commission will want to ensure, as far as possible, that the logic and the application of the FA rules are as watertight as possible, giving as little room as they can to routes of appeal.

One other option that may be considered relates to the statement released by Liverpool FC. I note it states that "the accusation by this particular player [Evra] was not credible – certainly no more credible than his prior unfounded accusations". Suárez, therefore, may consider suing Evra for defamation.

When decisions such as this come out, teams and players usually make a statement about "going all the way to Europe". Yet such statements rarely, if ever, come to anything. Rights of access to both the European court of human rights and the court of arbitration for sport are strictly limited, and I would find it hard to believe that any such challenge would be made in the first place.

It also strikes me that any decision whether to appeal may be used tactically. Suárez has 14 days to either (i) accept the charge, (ii) lodge an appeal or (iii) do nothing. If he admits the charge the penalty will take effect from the date the charge is admitted. Should Suárez appeal, the penalty is suspended until after the outcome of the appeal. Alternatively, Suárez could do nothing and allow the penalty to begin at the expiry of the 14-day deadline. These options will determine which matches Suárez can play in over the coming weeks.

A final point: when I advise clients on whether to commence legal action, the legal merits of their case are only one of a number of factors that I take into account. In a case such as this, Suárez and Liverpool should think long and hard about whether they want this case dragged out. A sensible option may be a contrite statement from Suárez making clear that he is not a racist and that he is gravely sorry for any offence he has caused and that, notwithstanding that he does not agree with the decision, he wants to put the whole episode behind him. The risk for Suárez of taking this further is that he goes down in history as the case that got to grips with racism in high-level football.

Steven Friel is a lawyer for Brown Rudnick who specialises in complex disputes

by **redtrader74** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:41 pm

parchpea wrote:I find it hard to fathom how a player can be hit with an 8 match ban for doing nothing and thats what our club seems to be saying. I want to wrong, but at this point you have to wonder if we are perhaps taking the wrong approach. By all accounts hes admitted to using the words but in a different context, but that simply wont wash with the FA and the ban is testament to that. When our club tells us a player is innocent we want to beleive it, but when you see an 8 game ban administered I dont think its wrong to question whats going on even if it is the team you support.

It's easy to see why, we live in an ultra pc world, at least in the UK where singing baa baa black sheep has been highlighted, where the lines between being racist and abusive have been blurred. You can kick someone in the head, make a leg breaking challenge with very little if any consequence, but mention colour in any context and it's racist. Thats why.

Do you think that if there were any other evidence Kenny or the Club would be standing by Luis?? They would have an easy solution, ' Luis did not understand what is acceptable in our culture and will be attending a racial awareness course........' The club is taking a stronger and more difficult route because they firmly reject the conclusion that Suarez' words were said with racist meaning.

by **zarababe** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:43 pm

aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

What actions.... language semantics ace... he didn't boot anyone, a warning would have sufficed.

What is acceptable in one culture can not be used to beat with in another. A warning woiuld have sufficed, The cklub is right and the statement is right.

Luis is not a racist he allegedly used a term acceptable, not derogatory, in his culture, but not in England, so should he be warned or labelled?

by **Dundalk** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:44 pm

aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

Word for word what Im thinking

Spot on aCe

by **redtrader74** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:52 pm

aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

bollox, in this country people refer to Scots as Jocks and Irish as paddy, and that's as racist as Suarez from his perspective would have been. You can wind people up how you like, ' what's up buddy, can't get the ball off me' 'hey buddy you having a sh!t game' say it 10 times and you have definatly pis5ed someone off, for suarez saying negrito instead of buddy or son would be the same. Give it some thought, and stop trying to expect Suarez to know everything about English culture.

FFS in this country there are communities that are extremely offended by someone coming into their house with shoes on, or if you were to speak to female members of their family, or try to shake their hands, do you know who they are? Before googling btw.Why do you expect him to know all about the cultural nuances and differences in the UK? By saying that Suarez knew what he was doing you are labelling him a racist, something even vile Lil Evra didn't think he is.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:58 pm

I thought the shoes off thing was a chinese issue but thinking about it when I go around for a number 54 with noodles they don't make anyone take their shoes off so I'm not sure now.

by **redtrader74** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:02 pm

Roger Red Hat wrote:I thought the shoes off thing was a chinese issue but thinking about it when I go around for a number 54 with noodles they don't make anyone take their shoes off so I'm not sure now.

You better brush up on your cultural awareness or some of your fellow newkitters will believe you intentionally kept your shoes on and are therefore a racist. :lookaround

by **aCe'** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:03 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

bollox, in this country people refer to Scots as Jocks and Irish as paddy, and that's as racist as Suarez from his perspective would have been. You can wind people up how you like, ' what's up buddy, can't get the ball off me' 'hey buddy you having a sh!t game' say it 10 times and you have definatly pis5ed someone off, for suarez saying negrito instead of buddy or son would be the same. Give it some thought, and stop trying to expect Suarez to know everything about English culture.

FFS in this country there are communities that are extremely offended by someone coming into their house with shoes on, or if you were to speak to female members of their family, or try to shake their hands, do you know who they are? Before googling btw.

Guess if I was Caucasian and raised in Brooklyn it would be alright for me to go to New Orleans and shout out 'nigga' at every black person I have an argument with ? You know, given were I'm from and all ?!

Its pretty much the same scenario here.

by **redtrader74** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:09 pm

aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
aCe' wrote:This is about as good an argument against his ban as you'll get. Regardless, the club didnt handle the whole thing well imo and more should have been done at least in terms of getting the two players together to work out the whole thing between them.

How do you know the Club didn't try and sort it out between the players? It would have required the help of Manu, and I very much doubt Fergie, who doesn't like Kenny or LFC, would cooperate.

Additionally the Club were sure and are still sure, after hearing all the 'evidence' that Luis did not racially abuse Evra, they understood the context. Our player had already been openly branded a racist, and the only way to be vindicated was openly, and not behind closed doors as Luis would still have his reputation damaged.

This judgement is sickening, it has been explained extensively that in South America they openly use terms to describe each other, without malice, they have a term for black, white, mixed race and dusky. Infact to ignore Luis' background and the meaning behind saying negrito/negro is in its own way racist, prejudiced at the very least. Just because we have a history of using colour in a derogatory manner it does not mean the rest of the world does, or would know about our banana throwing past.

ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

bollox, in this country people refer to Scots as Jocks and Irish as paddy, and that's as racist as Suarez from his perspective would have been. You can wind people up how you like, ' what's up buddy, can't get the ball off me' 'hey buddy you having a sh!t game' say it 10 times and you have definatly pis5ed someone off, for suarez saying negrito instead of buddy or son would be the same. Give it some thought, and stop trying to expect Suarez to know everything about English culture.

FFS in this country there are communities that are extremely offended by someone coming into their house with shoes on, or if you were to speak to female members of their family, or try to shake their hands, do you know who they are? Before googling btw.

Guess if I was Caucasian and raised in Brooklyn it would be alright for me to go to New Orleans and shout out 'nigga' at every black person I have an argument with ? You know, given were I'm from and all ?!

Its pretty much the same scenario here.

Yeah right it's the same, :no

You should be embarrassed by that, run out of a coherent argument?

Neither the Club or Kenny are stupid, they have lawyers guiding them and after hearing all the evidence have still come to the conclusion that our player has been misunderstood and persecuted. They have the easy option of sweeping the matter under the carpet and taking the punishment, but there is a principle involved, they truly believe that Luis was not racist, and are defending OUR player, as they should.

by **metalhead** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:25 pm

aCe' wrote:ffs... He said what he said and that much is clear to everyone. So lets drop the whole 'evidence' nonsense that both the fans and the club have been coming up with. He's admitted to saying what he did and whether you agree with his decision to do so or not, it's a bit too late to be asking Evra or the FA to present other evidence be it video footage or player testaments.

The phrase he used might very well be used in a different context in South America but that means Fck All if he used it in the portrayed, racist context when addressing Evra on the pitch. Lets not be stupid about this, I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color and the fact that the two not only arent friends but were arguing throughout the game suggests that whatever Suarez said wasnt presented in the friendliest of manners nd probably didnt carry an underlying endearment context as is beiing suggested by some fans.

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

You know this? how? how can you be so sure? maybe he was trying to tell him something else and it was blown out of proportion from Evra. No one knows what happened in the incident, You can't speculate without basing any evidence or proof on any matter then say ''ah well he deserve it''. You can't charge a player based on someone's allegation without STATING SOLID FACTS! Why do you think I'm furious? because there is no clear cut evidence to pin down Suarez for saying what he said on the pitch (racial remarks). He admitted to saying a word that in Uruguay deemed acceptable, and in Spanish it means ''Mate''. Chicharito called his teammates the same word, so why did Evra not go to the FA and complain about Chicharito? Evra even admitted calling Suarez a ''sudaca'' deemed an insult from where Suarez comes from but he didn't get a fine or ban did he now?

Laughable? so yes the FA is right, Suarez is racist, Evra is a saint and everything is rosy.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:26 pm

Patrice Evra - The Man Who Ruined Football

Chances of him dropping this?

by **redtrader74** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:27 pm

aCe' wrote:I have no doubt that Suarez knew exactly what he was doing when he made the reference to Evra's color

By all accounts argue that 8 games is a bit too much (3-5 with a fine and an extended statement aimed primarily at foreign players would have been a better call imo) but lets not take it all the way here. Even more disappointing imo is the way the club is handling the whole thing. Laughable statement and no one seems to acknowledge the seriousness of Suarez's actions.

If you believe this, and therefore that Suarez is a racist, then 8 games is not enough, why would you want to reduce the penalty, Infact the club should get rid of him, why would you want a racist at the club?

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