Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:17 pm

Having originally been baffled after hearing the team selection on the way to the game, I have to say that the three at the back worked well. Defensively it certainly made us stronger than we have looked in recent weeks. That system also allows Agger to bring the ball out from the back a lot more (I remember him doing it significantly away at Newcastle in 2006 when we played three at the back with Riise and Kromkamp at wing back).

It'll be interesting to see if we use it again anytime soon. I'm still trying to rack my brains to think of another team that uses that system at the top level and can't think of one apart from England at Euro 96 and France 98. Maybe it's seen as being outdated now but it's certainly a viable option when you consider that we still don't have any out and out wide men. Be interesting to see how we line up against Chelsea.

by **Zidane** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:13 pm

aCe' wrote:System yesterday (3-5-2) worked a treat against the given opposition... I too am not sure the same system would work against other sides but it certainly raises the possibility of us going with 3 at the back in some home games against the weaker sides that wont pressure as much in the center of the park...

Was thinking yesterday as i watched the game that if we had a decent left wingback in the Kolorov, Marcelo, clichy..etc bracket then Johnson could go back to the right flank and the system would look much better...
Kelly for all his good defensive work and energy is still largely frustrating when he gets forward... Im sure he'll improve many aspects of his game with experience (decision making, crossing, first touch..) but for now I think being solid defensively is more than enough to guarantee him a spot especially with Johnson seemingly being the preferred option down the left...

That's why I like your post aCe' I agree with a lot of them! Lots of people still don't see that Johno is much better than Kelly for the team, especially with the type of football we're playing now he would be massive on the right imo. Kelly slows us down a lot out on the right people are starting to realize that all he does is try to run past people and whip the cross in, credit to him though he makes smart runs at times that catch the defence by surprise. Anyway I don't see him improving that much more in attack he doesn't seem that technically gifted and is more suited to play CB in the future. He is a better version of Carra on the right pretty much.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:33 pm

andy_g wrote:you know what, this season i don't really give a massive shít about finishing in the champions league places. i don't really give a massive shít about to***s leaving, and i don't really give a massive shít about how kenny sets out the team with some of the fairly limited players we have. what is great about liverpool right now is kenny's influence right across the whole club. the fans are happy and optimistic for the first time in ages, the players we have now all look like the definitely want to play for him and for the shirt, and even the media like us again. i watch kenny's post match interviews and i laugh with him and share his optimism for the future. his methods on the pitch aren't so important right now - his methods of just being the man he is in charge of the club is what is really pushing us on again and waking us up from the nightmare of the last 18 months.

He got the tactics spot on last night (showing he's not past it on that score, as some might have worried) but it's the feel good factor that's really making the difference these days. Speaking of both tactics and the feel good factor, I love how he had Suarez warm up on the 30 minute mark last night when the crowd seemed to have gone a bit quiet and the energy of the game was ebbing. Seeing the new signing running the touchline brought everything back to life. Kenny just gets it.

by **Waldo** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:17 pm

Got the tactics spot on last night and got his press conference spot on today as well. Think he has swallowed a funny pill. Also, he was VERY firm with the media and their tone about the club, the position, Torres leaving, Carrolls fee etc. Love it

by **parchpea** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Bit of a throwback to early days of Roy Evans reign when he went with 3 centre backs and wing backs. Think it was Scales, Ruddock and Babb with McAteer and Bjornebye wide. The dutch where very keen on this way of playing back then and we tried it. It was productive in those days to a degree but we had quite an inexperienced side overall. I like the system, and it allows great freedom in the play, but I also enjoy seeing managers being clever tactically and not afraid to change systems, even during games. You can reap rewards if your brave enough to try stuff.

by **dawson99** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:34 pm

I love wingbacks, always thought with who we have in the squad wingbacks is the way, ad hes finally read my posts... made up about Kenny, long may he stay, we're a different animal with the right things in place

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:36 pm

Assuming for a moment last night's formation wasn't just a one-off and we are going to be playing with wingbacks, I'd like to see the following line-up:

Reina

Kelly Carragher Agger
Johnson Aurelio

Lucas

Gerrard Mereiles

Suarez
Carroll

With the likes of Kuyt, Cole, and Maxi slotting in as needed when poor form or injuries hit.

by **DaMo** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:08 pm

stmichael wrote:It'll be interesting to see if we use it again anytime soon. I'm still trying to rack my brains to think of another team that uses that system at the top level and can't think of one apart from England at Euro 96 and France 98. Maybe it's seen as being outdated now but it's certainly a viable option when you consider that we still don't have any out and out wide men. Be interesting to see how we line up against Chelsea.

While it was fantastic to see Kenny using such a system to good effect on the day, I really can't see it being deployed much. Remember that it was lone striker formations which rendered 3 at the back obsolete due to how it often leaves a "spare" defender. It's all about winning the midfield battle these days, so a 3-5-2 will always struggle against these contemporary 4-2-3-1s and 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 systems. Still, against a team playing with 2 uptop, preferably direct, I don't see why it couldn't be effective. There are a few Italian teams which do well with it under such circumstances. Aside from that, I for one can't think of any other examples aside from perhaps Egypt, who's coach seems to pretty much swear by his 5-3-2 / 3-5-2. They won the African nations cup against last year while using such a system, so it's not completely dead in the modern game by any means.

by **aCe'** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:32 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Assuming for a moment last night's formation wasn't just a one-off and we are going to be playing with wingbacks, I'd like to see the following line-up:

Reina

Kelly Carragher Agger
Johnson Aurelio

Lucas

Gerrard Mereiles

Suarez
Carroll

With the likes of Kuyt, Cole, and Maxi slotting in as needed when poor form or injuries hit.

I think we'll probably see that formation again this year but i certainly dont expect us to use it week in week out..
Can see it working in home games where we're expected to dominate possession and pi opponents back with little fear of them causing us too much trouble by doubling up down the flanks..

Personally i thought the defensive trio from last night did very well.. Each had a role to play and they did it very well.. This system imo brings out the best in both Soto and Agger defensively speaking.. Agger gets the chance to venture forward and bring the ball out without worrying much about being covered at the back, and Soto gets to attack balls (aerially) earlier instead of having to step back to cover which i feel is more natural to him..

Skrtel also did well pushing wider than the other two to try and cover for Kelly but I think the return of Carra will most likely see him lose his spot in the side..

Besides that, I'd be surprised if we see anything different from what you put up there with Aurelio/Kelly being the only exception.. Im still largely unconvinced by Kelly's attacking contributions but he's still young and will most likely improve given experience. Aurelio is one of my favorite players at the club and probably hits the ball better than anyone else in the side.. I'd have him in the side every day because his left foot offers something different and adds much to the fluidity and balance of the side..

by **stmichael** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:17 pm

Good article from the bbc website:

Dalglish knowhow can help fill Torres void

Only Andy Carroll's thigh injury has denied Liverpool fans the chance to directly compare their new strike force with former hero Fernando Torres when the Reds travel to Chelsea on Sunday.

They will already be buoyed by Luis Suarez scoring on his debut against Stoke in midweek and will look forward to a partnership with Carroll some are likening to previous Liverpool forwards John Toshack and Kevin Keegan.

Nevertheless, the question remains whether the deal to bring in £35m Carroll and £22.7m Suarez for £50m Torres represents good business.

On the one hand you have a World Cup and European Championship winner who has scored 65 Premier League goals, while on the other you have a striker new to English football and a 22-year old who has scored 14 times in the top tier.

The fact that Torres appeared to be disillusioned at Anfield might settle the argument. As Reds manager Kenny Dalglish said on Monday: "The most important people at Liverpool Football Club are the ones who want to be here."

But what exactly will Liverpool be getting from their new front two?

As he demonstrated against Stoke on Wednesday, Suarez is a predator. The former Ajax captain scored 49 goals in 48 games in the Eredivisie last season and helped guide Uruguay to the World Cup semi-finals last summer, albeit in controversial circumstances.

For Carroll, whose price tag was the more surprising of the two, you get far more than an aerial threat, according to Match of the Day pundit and former Newcastle striker Alan Shearer.

"You get a leader of the line, a player who can hold the ball up and you get someone who defenders hate playing against," he said, with passing statistics showing Carroll was far more involved than Torres in the game between Newcastle and Liverpool in December.

"His link-up play is very good too. He can bring people into the game and he can run into the channels if you need him to. He's still very young and has got a lot to learn but if there is one guy who can teach him then it is Kenny Dalglish."

It was as Blackburn's manager in 1992 that Dalglish signed Shearer from Southampton for a then record fee of £3.3m. So there are echoes in the way the Scot has plucked Carroll from a mid-table team aiming for eventual title glory.

The good news for Liverpool fans is that following an initial season where Shearer scored 16 league goals, he then went on to notch more than 30 in each of the next three seasons for Rovers, which included a Premier League title in 1995.

Dalglish was also responsible for bringing Chris Sutton to Ewood Park, forming the famous SAS partnership that resulted in 49 league goals in that title-winning season.

"My whole game improved working under Dalglish," said Shearer. "Kenny helped my movement, he helped my positional play and he helped me get in the box more often to score more goals.

"As he did with me, he'll speak to Andy every single day so I'm convinced Andy's game will improve by working with Kenny. Kenny is not only a great man but a great manager in my opinion. He won the league with Liverpool and Blackburn because of his football knowhow and of course he played in a forward position too."

In signing Carroll, Dalglish may have already studied various partnerships at Newcastle where his link-ups with captain Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton have been a feature of their season.

Barton has set up five of Carroll's 11 league goals this term, making them the most prolific combination in the Premier League. The duo have 12 assists between them.

And as if to underline Carroll's presence in the air Newcastle are the fourth best team for scoring from set-pieces with 39% of their goals coming from that route.

"Newcastle have looked to put balls in the box at every opportunity, whether from set-plays or open play and that is one of the reasons why Joey Barton has looked so good this year," Shearer added.

"He knows that if you put the right ball in the box, eight or nine times out of 10 Carroll will get on the end of it. For a wide or midfield player that is great to know."

That notion will be welcomed by Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard and he will also be encouraged by the connection between Carroll and Nolan, which was similar to the one he had with Torres.

"Gerrard can time his runs knowing that Carroll can win a flick-on or bring him into the game with either his pace or his strength," stated Shearer.

"Andy has also partnered Shola Ameobi up front this season so he has played in different formations and I don't think it will be problem for him to play either way with Gerrard or Suarez."

There is an added value to Carroll's aerial ability. Where Torres rarely contributed to Liverpool's defending, the 6ft 3in striker can help clear danger at set-pieces, as the touch map right shows.

That has proved to be a hidden weapon for Newcastle this season, who have the second best record in the Premier League for conceding this way, only 15% of their total, while 24% of Liverpool's goals against have come in this fashion.

"I think Liverpool have moved very well after the loss of Torres," said Shearer. "He is a world-class player and has been for many years so you can understand why Chelsea want to pay that type of money for him.

"But in Carroll and Suarez they have got two guys who are goalscorers, they will be horrible to play against and I'm pretty sure they will fill the gap vacated by Torres."

The Spaniard's move to London has presented Chelsea boss Carlo Ancelotti with a completely different dilemma.

Where once debate raged on who was the better striker between Torres and Didier Drogba, they now find themselves in the same team. Add in Nicolas Anelka and Florent Malouda and there will be some serious juggling involved.

Ancelotti has tended to favour a front three of Drogba, Anelka and Malouda this season, but Torres' move could lead to him switching formations.

"Torres will be able to make the adjustment to the way Chelsea play," said Shearer. "I know he has been off-colour lately - and you suspect it was because he wanted to get away from Liverpool - but now he has left, it might put the spring back in his step. You might see the Torres that we saw a year or two ago.

"The obvious front two to me would be Drogba and Torres and that would be some forward line. The partnership has got a bit of everything: it has got raw pace, raw strength, it is good in the air, it is good at attacking balls, both have a good touch; so potentially those two have got the lot.

"If you look at the Liverpool pair, Carroll is young and inexperienced while Suarez is just coming into the country to learn the English game. But in Torres and Drogba they know it inside out already and you know what you are getting."

On that basis, it looks like Dalglish is the one taking the bigger gamble. Yet with his pedigree both as a player and manager it is hard to doubt his nous for weaving another prolific strike force capable of returning the good times to Anfield.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs...._t.html

by **Scottbot** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:15 pm

DaMo wrote:
stmichael wrote:It'll be interesting to see if we use it again anytime soon. I'm still trying to rack my brains to think of another team that uses that system at the top level and can't think of one apart from England at Euro 96 and France 98. Maybe it's seen as being outdated now but it's certainly a viable option when you consider that we still don't have any out and out wide men. Be interesting to see how we line up against Chelsea.

While it was fantastic to see Kenny using such a system to good effect on the day, I really can't see it being deployed much. Remember that it was lone striker formations which rendered 3 at the back obsolete due to how it often leaves a "spare" defender. It's all about winning the midfield battle these days, so a 3-5-2 will always struggle against these contemporary 4-2-3-1s and 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 systems. Still, against a team playing with 2 uptop, preferably direct, I don't see why it couldn't be effective. There are a few Italian teams which do well with it under such circumstances. Aside from that, I for one can't think of any other examples aside from perhaps Egypt, who's coach seems to pretty much swear by his 5-3-2 / 3-5-2. They won the African nations cup against last year while using such a system, so it's not completely dead in the modern game by any means.

Same here, I've never been a big fan of this set-up and i don't think we'll be seeing a return to 3-5-2 anywhere in the league on a regular basis. Rafa used it effectively on a few occasions but it was usually as a one off to catch an opponent off guard or to deal with a particular (much like Stoke's aerial attack) threat.

The irony is othat one of the best analysis of 3-5-2 that i have seen is provided by the man in the link below.

http://www.uefa.com/trainin....39.html

by **stmichael** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:30 pm

The Gerrard Conundrum

If you ask Steven Gerrard for his best position, he will probably tell you that it is central midfield. It was as a central midfield powerhouse that Gerrard first burst onto the scene, but under Rafael Benítez Gerrard often seemed to play anywhere but this position.

So, where is Gerrard's best position and how will Kenny get the best out of his Liverpool captain?

Gerrard has so far played two full games for King Kenny. In analysing the first game against Fulham, there are questions to be asked about his positioning. Gerrard played alongside Christian Poulson in central midfield and his display indicated that, after years playing further up the pitch or out on the right, he does not have the discipline to play this role.
Gerrard came out of the blocks like a steam train, heavily involved in wave after wave of attack. During this initial ten minute period, Liverpool created lots of chances and had a goal wrongly disallowed. Then Gerrard seemingly started to tire (he was physically panting after ten minutes). For the rest of the game, neither Gerrard nor Liverpool looked the same. Gerrard personifies the way Liverpool play: when he is firing we are firing, when he is sluggish we are sluggish.

Gerrard’s positioning was a concern all game. When the ball arrived in central midfield area Gerrard was often out of position, leaving Poulson wide open to a Fulham attack. Fortunately, Fulham were poor and did not capitalise on the space they were gifted by Gerrard.

On a couple of occasions he played defence splitting passes that very few players in the world can play, so the role of midfield playmaker is definitely within him. The challenge for Kenny is, given Meireles' form and the introduction of Carroll and Suarez, where he plays Gerrard if it is not in a central midfield two.
In Gerrard’s second full game for Kenny, there was a change of formation. We played with three in central defence and two holding midfielders:

Reina
Skrtel Kyrgiakos Agger
Kelly Lucas Aurelio Johnson
Gerrard Meireles
Kuyt

With the disciplined Lucas and quick minded Aurelio playing behind Gerrard, he was given the freedom to interchange with Meireles as the second striker. It also allowed him to drift right and deliver the sort of penetrating balls into the box that would have had Carroll’s mouth watering from the director's box.
The question for Kenny now is how he fits Gerrard into an attack encompassing Carroll, Suarez & Meireles.
Looking back on our recent history, the Mascherano – Alonso – Gerrard central midfield partnership worked really well, and a similar formation could work with Lucas – Meireles – Gerrard.

With Suarez comfortable playing as a left sided striker, Kuyt used to playing on the right of the attack and Carroll down the middle, Gerrard would have the freedom to cause havoc. The only concern is that Meireles is not in the same league as Alonso defensively and Lucas could end up exposed:

Reina
Kelly Carragher Agger Johnson
Lucas Meireles
Gerrard
Kuyt Carroll Suarez

Another option would be to drop Kuyt, play Gerrard on the right of the attack and play Aurelio alongside Lucas. This would allow Meireles to play in his best position in between midfield and attack and Gerrard could link up with Kelly down the right to deliver into the box those mouth watering balls for Carroll. The Aurelio / Alonso role could well be what Kenny had in mind when bidding for Charlie Adam:

Reina
Kelly Carragher Agger Johnson
Lucas Aurelio (Adam)
Meireles
Gerrard Carroll Suarez

The key player for me in all of this is Steven Gerrard. Getting Gerrard firing on all cylinders could make or break the second half of our season, and here lies Kenny's Conundrum.

http://joescouse.blogspot.com/

by **Scottbot** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:39 pm

I like the last two formations he has put up. I'd love to see Gerrard given a run from the right hand-side from time to time once Carroll is fit and firing. Plus i still think a fit Joe Cole has a role to play in this team although you can't help but wonder if the arrival of Suarez has put paid to his Liverpool future. I hope not.

by **crim cram** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:09 pm

We've played this 3-5-1-1 twice now against two very different teams. Both times we've given very little away and have been extremely comfortable. Reina has made two save in the past two games (that I can remember). Today might have been his quietest game of the season. Some of it has to be down to the formation, but credit has to be given to the teamwork and constant movement. I honestly think we'll line up several different ways this season but our style of play won't change much.

With this current formation, Kenny is mitigating the pace of opposing players and making the other team do a lot of chasing. I haven't seen the possession stats for today but I bet they were close to even, at least until the goal was scored.

I've been impressed with how calm we've played these past few weeks. :cool:

More of the same please.

by **DaMo** » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:02 pm

I thought Kenny got it spot on again today. Chelski had to abandon their 4-3-3 to be able to accommodate Torres, and boy did Kenny anticipate that. This 3/5 defenders system can and will nerf the attack of any team that plays 2 uptop. Playing against 3 CBs really is a nightmare for strikers. It speak volumes when even a Drogba-Torres partnership can be tamed by it. Still, considering how more than half the league plays a 4-5-1 of some sort nowadays, there's no way we'll be able to keep playing such a system. It's going to be a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 as our main setup. The fact that Suarez is apparently comfortable playing in the hole or on either flank gives us options. I can't wait to see what Kenny comes up with when both he and Carroll are in the team.

In regards to the Gerrard Conundrum, in contrast, I actually like the look of:

Reina
Kelly Carragher Agger Johnson
Lucas Gerrard
Meireles
Kuyt Carroll Suarez

I don't believe Gerrard in the hole would be worth the defensive instability that a Meireles and Lucas pairing paves the way for. Considering how our centerbacks have performed this season on the whole (except when there has been 3 of them!), I am of the opinion that Gerrard alongside Lucas would be more beneficial to the team than him playing well in the hole. Besides, if Meireles' performances are anything to go by, he is thriving in the freedom of movement under Kenny and could do very well in his own right while playing off Carroll.

Or as a compromise, how about:

Reina
Kelly Carragher Agger Johnson
Lucas
Gerrard Meireles
Kuyt Carroll Suarez

Gerrard / Meireles could take it in turns surging ahead to link-up with the front 3.

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