Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:10 pm

Yep agree - i think its going to be like this for the rest of the season - ups for a couple of games then downs for a couple of games . Its not what we want to see but i think the set up we saw for the majority of the match last night is what we will see away from home and if so its not going to get us many wins . That needs to change .

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:19 pm

Benny's post is sensible enough, can't really argue with that. The bit which particularly resonates is the "it's going to be like this for the rest of the season", it is. The simple fact of that matter is we aren't THAT good a team that we can go and steamroller everyone we play. We aren't Chelsea, though it sticks in my throat to say it we aren't Arsenal or even fecking Man Utd either, we are a team which is competing with Man City, Spurs and Villa for fourth/fifth/sixth.

One or two posters are still trotting out this line that it is "largely the same team which finished second behind the Mancs", whilst omitting to mention of course that we had Alonso and Masherano in that team, it was a better side than either last seasons one or this one, and I don't think anyone can sensibly refute that. But there will as benny says be further disappointments along the way, teams which finish fourth/fifth/sixth/seventh get more than their fair share of disappointing results, that's why they aren't challenging to win it.

I do wish though that people would at least try and be sensible when discussing the results and the performces. Yes we would like to have won, yes we didn't play well, but some of the stuff aimed at the manager even during the game is simply laughable. Talk about true colours shining through, a perfect example of it.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 pm

Where as i will disagree and think we are good enough and have shown we are good enough to comfortably beat the likes of wigan , blackpool,blackburn etc if the set up and tactics are correct - we will see them correct at home but will see us revert to a more deep containing set up away from home which will result in more draws and defeats than wins .

We have the talent and ability to get into the top 4 - we need the set up , tactics and mentality to go with it .

by **andy_g** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 pm

stmichael wrote:blatantly went there for a point last night and got it. happy days!

poulsen coming on for kuyt when you've got to go and win the game just about sums it up.

kuyt was having a shocker and poulsen coming on allowed gerrard to play higher up the pitch. we actually played better football (which admittedly isn't saying much) after he came on.

i wasn't happy to see the bloke either but i actually think the substitution worked to a degree. would have been nice to see ngog come on as well though, maybe for maxi, and go hell for leather for the win.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:32 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:Where as i will disagree and think we are good enough and have shown we are good enough to comfortably beat the likes of wigan , blackpool,blackburn etc if the set up and tactics are correct - we will see them correct at home but will see us revert to a more deep containing set up away from home which will result in more draws and defeats than wins .

We have the talent and ability to get into the top 4 - we need the set up , tactics and mentality to go with it .

I agree with this about the setup.
We should not be sitting so deep in any game where we are the better side, home or away.
Ok if we think its the right way to go at one of the tougher away games but when you take the lead at Wigan and are in good form, go for the jugular.
We invited them on and in the end they got the equaliser they deserved.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:36 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Where as i will disagree and think we are good enough and have shown we are good enough to comfortably beat the likes of wigan , blackpool,blackburn etc if the set up and tactics are correct - we will see them correct at home but will see us revert to a more deep containing set up away from home which will result in more draws and defeats than wins .

We have the talent and ability to get into the top 4 - we need the set up , tactics and mentality to go with it .

I agree with this about the setup.
We should not be sitting so deep in any game where we are the better side, home or away.
Ok if we think its the right way to go at one of the tougher away games but when you take the lead at Wigan and are in good form, go for the jugular.
We invited them on and in the end they got the equaliser they deserved.

100% agree

All the pressure we got last night was our own making - we had them in the palm of our hands after 15 mins and should of just kept going .

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:49 pm

I agree and disagree. We obviously sat off them too much, nobody with a brain would dispute that, but I disagree with the notion that it was managerial input which made us so circumspect. I don't think it was. After the match Roy talked about us sitting off too much, not continuing to press forward and said he was disappointed in the performance, so I think to imply it was his doing is incorrect.

Sometimes football matches take their course and there is little a manager can do to influence events. That's why managers talk about starting brightly, because if you get onto the back foot it is often difficult to get off it. We went to Hull last season and didn't have a shot, but obviously that wasn't because the manager said "don't have any shots", it was the way the game panned out. Had we sat off from the start I would be more inclined to accept the "it's the set up" argument, but we didn't, we started well. For a number of reasons Wigan wrestled the initiative away from us, and it wasn't until the last 10 minutes (after we moved Gerrard forward in a move many are criticising) that we got it back.

We didn't play well, and too many of our players had off nights compared to the Chelsea game. Konchesky, Kelly, Lucas and Maxi were at least 30% down on their Chelsea endeavours, and given everything it's one of them where you stick the away point in your back pocket and move on. We'll have other games where we play really well and lose, so I take this draw and don't worry too much about it.

by **jacdaniel** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:50 pm

Sitting deep just doesn't seem to work for us. It didn't work against Sunderland, Blackpool, Everton or City. It didn't work against the Mancs either. We only looked good against them when we came out and played. Once we equalised we sat back again and lost.

We need to try and play with a bit of a tempo and press the ball higher up the field. But everyone seems to know that. I can't understand why we keep sitting deep when it sets us up for failure.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 pm

bigmick wrote:I agree and disagree. We obviously sat off them too much, nobody with a brain would dispute that, but I disagree with the notion that it was managerial input which made us so circumspect. I don't think it was. After the match Roy talked about us sitting off too much, not continuing to press forward and said he was disappointed in the performance, so I think to imply it was his doing is incorrect.

Sometimes football matches take their course and there is little a manager can do to influence events. That's why managers talk about starting brightly, because if you get onto the back foot it is often difficult to get off it. We went to Hull last season and didn't have a shot, but obviously that wasn't because the manager said "don't have any shots", it was the way the game panned out. Had we sat off from the start I would be more inclined to accept the "it's the set up" argument, but we didn't, we started well. For a number of reasons Wigan wrestled the initiative away from us, and it wasn't until the last 10 minutes (after we moved Gerrard forward in a move many are criticising) that we got it back.

We didn't play well, and too many of our players had off nights compared to the Chelsea game. Konchesky, Kelly, Lucas and Maxi were at least 30% down on their Chelsea endeavours, and given everything it's one of them where you stick the away point in your back pocket and move on. We'll have other games where we play really well and lose, so I take this draw and don't worry too much about it.

The problem is the way we played the last 75 mins last night is a mirror image of the way we have played during 95% of our games so far - so if the manager isnt setting them up that way why are the players playing that way ?

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:58 pm

I personally think we're almost there with the "Hodgson method", but there are a couple of things we need to address. I think the thing which he demands which is the most difficult for players to adapt to is our defensive formation. Not only in the two banks of four with the strikers sitting in, but how quickly he wants the team to revert to shape after we have conceded posession. He doesn't want the players to hunt the ball and risk becoming less compact, he wants them to quickly reassume their shape (I've only concluded this by watching us play, watching how he reacts to situations etc).

Equally though, and contrary to what people on here think, I don't think he wants us to sit in when we have the ball. In essence, he wants us to show much more energy and mobility than we do at times, to both attack AND defend. I think during the process of players "adapting to his methods" there is a tendancy to remain in position for too long, fearful of leaving a gaping hole and disrupting the defensive pattern. If you see Roy though urging the midfield forward (and indeed Carragher doing it), he wants them to get up and down more. When we do it, we look like a good team, when we don't, we don't.

It's different to the Benitez method, hence the time it's taking, but once we've got it I think we'll be a decent team. Like I say though, he isn't IMHO sending us out to sit back.

by **7_Kewell** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:00 pm

Reg wrote:
tonyeh wrote:
Reg wrote:
lakes10 wrote:can i point out that we did not get beat last night and we are 9th and on the same points as 6th place and one point off 5th place.

How can we beat Chelsea one day and only draw with Wigan the next. Rightfully, we should steamroll Wigan on our way to a top 4 place.

We feckin LOST to Wigan in March FFS..

Aaaaaahhh I forgot, 2 wrongs make a right. Cracking result then.

Following your logic, next time we play Wigan I'll start shítting myself 2 days beforehand.

i don't think anyone is saying it was a good result, but it's not quite the disaster that some are making it out to be.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:02 pm

If he isnt then why are the players sitting so deep then ? Every single game we sit deep and let them have the ball for long periods of time - there is no pressure on the ball , no hunting the ball , no trying to force the oppo into making a mistake and trying to nick the ball of them . It seems to me to be a safety first approach most defiantly away from home . It also creates a massive gap between the midfield four ( which becomes a five away from home ) to Torres and he is then left isolated .

by **taff** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:58 pm

bigmick wrote:Yes despite hearing that "it's the owners innit" for many years, when we in the relegation zone this season pretty much nobody offered up that excuse. Rightly so too, because it wasn't the owners fault before, and it wasn't the owners fault this season either.

Similarly, it wasn't the owners who deserved credit when we won the Champions League, it was Rafa and the players. Just like now, it's Roy and the players who deserve total credit for us showing signs of getting something going.

I think the owners thing definitely had an effect on us being in the bottom three but my gripe with Roy is that this was well known and he came on the ticket that he would unify and motivate the squad etc. And this is why I think that 4th place is his main objective and hopefully a trophy.

And Roy deserves as much credit as any manager when it goes well as he has had the criticisms when it hasnt gone well. Thats fair and logical IMO as he is the man in charge.

I do agree with Mick when he compared him to Ranieri. A very good competent manager but just lacking that factor X. Whether this is just or fair is to me a parallel debate. As far as Im concerned, I was pro Rafa and I didnt think that Roy was right for our club but I do respect him. I dont think those opinions conflict each other to be honest and while he is here we should back him.

And we should really judge after xmas as the last few weeks has been a rollercoaster ride.

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:34 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
bigmick wrote:I agree and disagree. We obviously sat off them too much, nobody with a brain would dispute that, but I disagree with the notion that it was managerial input which made us so circumspect. I don't think it was. After the match Roy talked about us sitting off too much, not continuing to press forward and said he was disappointed in the performance, so I think to imply it was his doing is incorrect.

Sometimes football matches take their course and there is little a manager can do to influence events. That's why managers talk about starting brightly, because if you get onto the back foot it is often difficult to get off it. We went to Hull last season and didn't have a shot, but obviously that wasn't because the manager said "don't have any shots", it was the way the game panned out. Had we sat off from the start I would be more inclined to accept the "it's the set up" argument, but we didn't, we started well. For a number of reasons Wigan wrestled the initiative away from us, and it wasn't until the last 10 minutes (after we moved Gerrard forward in a move many are criticising) that we got it back.

We didn't play well, and too many of our players had off nights compared to the Chelsea game. Konchesky, Kelly, Lucas and Maxi were at least 30% down on their Chelsea endeavours, and given everything it's one of them where you stick the away point in your back pocket and move on. We'll have other games where we play really well and lose, so I take this draw and don't worry too much about it.

The problem is the way we played the last 75 mins last night is a mirror image of the way we have played during 95% of our games so far - so if the manager isnt setting them up that way why are the players playing that way ?

On the positive side Gerrard had two clear goal scoring opportunities and should have scored twice. We started lively and could have won the game.
On the negative I am TOTALLY pi'ssed off with the slack and disgraceful passing that gifted wigan the ball so many times. This then forces us further back which results in hoofing to try and clear. This obviously puts us under more pressure as the ball goes to the opposition time after time. It is horrible to watch and I felt sorry for Roy (as I would for any manager in that position) when the players go into this mind set.
Nobody can seriously say that Hodgson wanted this to happen or preffered this style. Can they?
If so, can someone explain why he would want us to play well for 20 minutes and shi'te for the other 73?
Serious answers please

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:47 pm

Im pretty sure no one is ever going to suggest the manager wanted us to play sh,ite but why did they go so deep ? why have they done it in 95% of the games ?

Liverpool FC Forum

ROY HODGSON - Official Thread

Who is online