Liverpool FC Forum

by **alwayslfc** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:49 am

Rafa was a good manager. Just a good manager but not good enough to win the league. When news of his removal came to light, I had mixed feelings. It would be right if Liverpool could find a better replacement and wrong if the replacement is worse than him.

Roy seems like a nice bloke but I disagree with his appointment because I knew his capability is no where near Rafa. So dismissing Rafa in this case was not the right thing. Roy's CV never has championship trophies from the competitive leagues and only from the minor leagues of Scandinavia and a few other minor leagues and a few mediocre seasons from fellow premier league clubs and also the sacking from Blackburn.

by **rocky29** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:34 am

the midfield is kack compared to last season. So now we got no one to create a goal and wiv nando out we got no-one to score a goal. Ummm? I wonder why were struggling

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:41 am

Thommo , i know this question is in hindsight , But let me ask you this and i want an honest answer ,

You say there was not alot of top class managers willing to take on this job, Yes i understand what your saying there , You say No Doubt about it Rafa needed to go , Yes i also understand what you are saying there , even though i wanted him to stay,
Just tell me do you honestly believe hand on heart and i mean honestly that we would be in the relegation Zone and out of the leauge cup at this present time if Rafa was still the manager, And i dont wanna see well he had to get to know the players ,and one player left , or he brought a couple of new players in , Fair question i think , Do you believe We would of been in this position NOW if Rafa was still here .all i want is a yes or No

by **dawson99** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:45 am

I dont think anyone could answer that nan. Would Torres and Stevie stayed if Rafa had still been here? Would others? Would Joe Cole ahd come over? Who would we have brought? These are all null points now, as we'll never know the answers

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:53 am

NANNY RED wrote:Thommo , i know this question is in hindsight , But let me ask you this and i want an honest answer ,

You say there was not alot of top class managers willing to take on this job, Yes i understand what your saying there , You say No Doubt about it Rafa needed to go , Yes i also understand what you are saying there , even though i wanted him to stay,
Just tell me do you honestly believe hand on heart and i mean honestly that we would be in the relegation Zone and out of the leauge cup at this present time if Rafa was still the manager, And i dont wanna see well he had to get to know the players ,and one player left , or he brought a couple of new players in , Fair question i think , Do you believe We would of been in this position NOW if Rafa was still here .all i want is a yes or No

Nan I will give you the only answer I can: I honestly dont know.
I am a genuine fan like you and I have the same fears and doubts as every other fan. I wish Rafa would have concentrted on football maters on the pitch instead of letting himself be distracted by things off the pitch. He had money to spend (everyone wants more) and the backing of the fans but he fu'cked it up. Plain and simple. I have said in another post that if the season would have continued past may we would have dropped further and further down the table. I am convinced that this would have happened, such was the quality of the football and the attitude of the players last season. Like Daws said, who knows what would have happened if he stayed? It was obvious that his CL and Fa cup wins counted for nothing with his final squad of players.
Although Roy wasnt my first choice (Huddink) I did think he would bring stability and get us back on track. I expected us to be mid table (10-12th) at this time but obviously that hasnt happened. I am as gutted as the next person, but I say again, I hope that Roy is the right man to sort things out and I am willing to give him a chance. I honestly dont want to become like city or newcastle changing managers more often than you change your bloomers :eyebrow

by **jacdaniel** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:50 am

Roy should be sacked. Especially if the new owners come in. He was appointed to "Steady the ship" until a new owner came in and he has pretty much failed in that respect. He has actually added a couple of tonnes to the ship.

I see some people are saying "Give him time". Give him time to do what exactly? The tactics and the football are dreadful and he has admitted that they won't change cos they have held him in "good stead" for 35 years. (at small clubs).

If Roy is giving money in January, i believe that he will sign a Target man. We play deep and narrow, with about 40 yards between the midfield and Torres. A target man will be signed to hold the ball up more and obviously plenty of long balls.

Is this what people really want to see any new owner investing their money on? Surely we need to be a bit more adventurous and imaginative if we plan on challenging for the title in the next few years.

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:19 am

Thommo's perm wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Thommo , i know this question is in hindsight , But let me ask you this and i want an honest answer ,

You say there was not alot of top class managers willing to take on this job, Yes i understand what your saying there , You say No Doubt about it Rafa needed to go , Yes i also understand what you are saying there , even though i wanted him to stay,
Just tell me do you honestly believe hand on heart and i mean honestly that we would be in the relegation Zone and out of the leauge cup at this present time if Rafa was still the manager, And i dont wanna see well he had to get to know the players ,and one player left , or he brought a couple of new players in , Fair question i think , Do you believe We would of been in this position NOW if Rafa was still here .all i want is a yes or No

Nan I will give you the only answer I can: I honestly dont know.
I am a genuine fan like you and I have the same fears and doubts as every other fan. I wish Rafa would have concentrted on football maters on the pitch instead of letting himself be distracted by things off the pitch. He had money to spend (everyone wants more) and the backing of the fans but he fu'cked it up. Plain and simple. I have said in another post that if the season would have continued past may we would have dropped further and further down the table. I am convinced that this would have happened, such was the quality of the football and the attitude of the players last season. Like Daws said, who knows what would have happened if he stayed? It was obvious that his CL and Fa cup wins counted for nothing with his final squad of players.
Although Roy wasnt my first choice (Huddink) I did think he would bring stability and get us back on track. I expected us to be mid table (10-12th) at this time but obviously that hasnt happened. I am as gutted as the next person, but I say again, I hope that Roy is the right man to sort things out and I am willing to give him a chance. I honestly dont want to become like city or newcastle changing managers more often than you change your bloomers

Fair enough answer , But as you said there attitude of the players , Loads were saying Rafa had lost the dressing room AND from what im seeing at the moment them players have not come back in to get changed .

For my honest answer ,i do not think we would be in the bottom of the table if he was still here ,

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:23 am

NANNY RED wrote:Thommo , i know this question is in hindsight , But let me ask you this and i want an honest answer ,

You say there was not alot of top class managers willing to take on this job, Yes i understand what your saying there , You say No Doubt about it Rafa needed to go , Yes i also understand what you are saying there , even though i wanted him to stay,
Just tell me do you honestly believe hand on heart and i mean honestly that we would be in the relegation Zone and out of the leauge cup at this present time if Rafa was still the manager, And i dont wanna see well he had to get to know the players ,and one player left , or he brought a couple of new players in , Fair question i think , Do you believe We would of been in this position NOW if Rafa was still here .all i want is a yes or No

It's a fair question and I have no problems in answering it absolutely honestly. No denying the sky is blue from me, I am absolutely convinced that if Rafa were still the manager we would have a few more points in the league, and would probably have beaten Northampton in the Carling Cup as well.

AHHHHH!!!!!!! I hear you cry, but before everyone gets carried away, lets try and look at it sensibly for once.

Firstly, I don't think we would have won at Man City or even got a draw. Not many teams will, and my pre season title tips are belatedly starting to look good. Secondly, I think we would have lost at Old Trafford, simply because we always did under Rafa apart from once. Lets be charitable and give him a draw with 10 men against Arsenal, a draw at Brum (same as last season) and a win at Home against WBA. I think we may have beaten Sunderland but maybe not, but I am convinced we would have beaten Blackpool. I also think we would have won the Carling Cup match.

So does this mean we should have kept Rafa and he is a better manager? No, and No not necessarily.

I think we would have beaten Blackpool for a couple of reasons. Chief amongst them was the fact that it was a massive game, the fans in the ground were 100% obsessively behind Benitez, and they would have been at fever pitch, urging the players to get the win. We'd have swarmed all over them and won comfortably. Contrast that with Roy, where the fans have never been behind him properly, and many throughout the ground and on forums and phone ins were positively relishing the prospect of us losing (they'll deny it but they so obviously were). So much so in fact that they couldn't even wait for the game to end (we were losing by one goal at the time) before singing "Dalglish". Quite how they thought this would help the team would best be explained by them I guess, but it didn't seem to and we lost.

The Carling Cup game would have been won too. Benitez had steered us to a defeat at Home to Reading last season, so he wouldn't have made the same mistakes as Hodgson and would have fielded a stronger team. He generally did learn by his mistakes eventually, albeit painfully slowly at times.

So there you go. Would I have kept him though? Not in a million years.

by **Ian Rush's Right foot** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:27 am

Was it time for Rafa to go? - The simple answer was unfortunately yes, familiarity breeds contempt and that was clear on both sides, it sucks but that is clear for all to see.

Would we be in th bottom three if Rafa was here? - Simple answer is No, why? because we hadn't been there before!

by **maguskwt** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:03 pm

The bottom line is that it remains to be seen that Roy is NOT a lesser manager than Rafa. So far he's not doing too much to convince this is so. Until he does, sacking rafa will always be a bad mistake IMO. So Stevie and Torres' body languages were bad last season. Their body languages are bad now as well... In fact it can be said Torres' body language is worse than last season. Does that mean The players don't wanna play for Roy anymore? After 7 games?

by **maguskwt** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:16 pm

bigmick wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Thommo , i know this question is in hindsight , But let me ask you this and i want an honest answer ,

You say there was not alot of top class managers willing to take on this job, Yes i understand what your saying there , You say No Doubt about it Rafa needed to go , Yes i also understand what you are saying there , even though i wanted him to stay,
Just tell me do you honestly believe hand on heart and i mean honestly that we would be in the relegation Zone and out of the leauge cup at this present time if Rafa was still the manager, And i dont wanna see well he had to get to know the players ,and one player left , or he brought a couple of new players in , Fair question i think , Do you believe We would of been in this position NOW if Rafa was still here .all i want is a yes or No

It's a fair question and I have no problems in answering it absolutely honestly. No denying the sky is blue from me, I am absolutely convinced that if Rafa were still the manager we would have a few more points in the league, and would probably have beaten Northampton in the Carling Cup as well.

AHHHHH!!!!!!! I hear you cry, but before everyone gets carried away, lets try and look at it sensibly for once.

Firstly, I don't think we would have won at Man City or even got a draw. Not many teams will, and my pre season title tips are belatedly starting to look good. Secondly, I think we would have lost at Old Trafford, simply because we always did under Rafa apart from once. Lets be charitable and give him a draw with 10 men against Arsenal, a draw at Brum (same as last season) and a win at Home against WBA. I think we may have beaten Sunderland but maybe not, but I am convinced we would have beaten Blackpool. I also think we would have won the Carling Cup match.

So does this mean we should have kept Rafa and he is a better manager? No, and No not necessarily.

I think we would have beaten Blackpool for a couple of reasons. Chief amongst them was the fact that it was a massive game, the fans in the ground were 100% obsessively behind Benitez, and they would have been at fever pitch, urging the players to get the win. We'd have swarmed all over them and won comfortably. Contrast that with Roy, where the fans have never been behind him properly, and many throughout the ground and on forums and phone ins were positively relishing the prospect of us losing (they'll deny it but they so obviously were). So much so in fact that they couldn't even wait for the game to end (we were losing by one goal at the time) before singing "Dalglish". Quite how they thought this would help the team would best be explained by them I guess, but it didn't seem to and we lost.

The Carling Cup game would have been won too. Benitez had steered us to a defeat at Home to Reading last season, so he wouldn't have made the same mistakes as Hodgson and would have fielded a stronger team. He generally did learn by his mistakes eventually, albeit painfully slowly at times.

So there you go. Would I have kept him though? Not in a million years.

If you don't honestly deny the sky is blue bigmick, then surely you must agree Rafa is a better manager... 2 la liga titles. 1 champions league title, one uefa cup title and one FA cup title proves that...

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:56 pm

maguskwt wrote:If you don't honestly deny the sky is blue bigmick, then surely you must agree Rafa is a better manager... 2 la liga titles. 1 champions league title, one uefa cup title and one FA cup title proves that...

No I don't deny the sky is blue Magus, there's been far too much of that going on on here over the years. Based on their respective records, you'd obviously go for Benitez if you were starting from scratch, but it is by no means as simple as that.

Clearly deciding who was going to be our manager for the next couple of seasons wasn't "starting from scratch", far from it. It could in fact be argued that Benitez had not only taken the club as far as he could, but he was well underway with the journey back again as well. Clearly he had to go (I know some of the "moonies" on here will never see it, but for any even slightly impartial judge it was an absolute no brainer), and then the only question then is who you replace him with.

It remains to be seen whether or not it was the right move to plump for Roy (or Woy as you and the posse insist on calling him), but per se measuring any incumbent on how many La Liga titles they had won is a silly way of judging it. If you went with that criteria, you would NEVER EVER get rid of Benitez regardless of how much of a nonsense he had made of the job after six seasons. While I can appreciate that to you and your fellow clan members this is a perfect scenario, it's no way to run a football club.

When Barcelona promoted Pep Guardiola from reserve team coach to first team coach he hadn't won any La Liga titles either, he has now. When the Mancs promoted Ferguson from Aberdeen, his league success had been in Scotland. You can't say that any more. When Arsenal plucked Wenger from the Japanese A league, no doubt people of your ilk would have dismissed any achievements he had.

It doesn't matter which way you spin it around, you can only win the league you are competing in at the time. As such, Roys record is extremely impressive. No manager rips it up everywhere he goes, certainly not even your Guru Magus. I must dig back through that thread where I detailed his successes and failures. All I can say is, it's a good job you lot weren't Valencia fans when he first got the job there, he'd have been sacked long before he won any La Liga titles.

by **supersub** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:38 pm

bigmick wrote:It remains to be seen whether or not it was the right move to plump for Roy (or Woy as you and the posse insist on calling him),

It appears that you are the poster who has used the phrase Woy the most on this forum and that the word Wafa is the most re-occurring, mis-pronounced name of any of our former or current managers...I would ask that a little respect be shown to previous and current managers please by posse and non-posse members...whoever they are

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:46 pm

supersub wrote:
bigmick wrote:It remains to be seen whether or not it was the right move to plump for Roy (or Woy as you and the posse insist on calling him),

It appears that you are the poster who has used the phrase Woy the most on this forum and that the word Wafa is the most re-occurring, mis-pronounced name of any of our former or current managers...I would ask that a little respect be shown to previous and current managers please by posse and non-posse members...whoever they are

Not really sure how to take that one SS. I've NEVER used "Woy" apart from in that post, and I've never used "Wafa"

( I didn't know anybody esle had either to be honest).

Ah well, straight over my head but it's hardly the first time lets be honest.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:53 pm

bigmick wrote:
supersub wrote:
bigmick wrote:It remains to be seen whether or not it was the right move to plump for Roy (or Woy as you and the posse insist on calling him),

It appears that you are the poster who has used the phrase Woy the most on this forum and that the word Wafa is the most re-occurring, mis-pronounced name of any of our former or current managers...I would ask that a little respect be shown to previous and current managers please by posse and non-posse members...whoever they are

Not really sure how to take that one SS. I've NEVER used "Woy" apart from in that post, and I've never used "Wafa" ( I didn't know anybody esle had either to be honest).

Ah well, straight over my head but it's hardly the first time lets be honest.

Funny I've never called Roy "Woy" and here you are accusing me of doing just that... :laugh:

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So after a few months with roy, was sacking rafa - The right thing to do?

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