Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:50 pm

That right there mate is the one criticism of Roy which I wholeheartedly agree with (this "not pressing high enough"). On the "Roy's tactics" thread I talked about the very first time I saw his Liverpool play, and I cannot get to grips with it in terms of it being the right way to go going forward.

The only other top team I can remember adopting even a similarly standoffish approach was Mourinho's Chelsea. They were slightly different in that they used to press the ball selectively in different areas of the pitch, but I've never seen a top side just sit off and let them come (except in Eorope obviously). The problem for us is that our defence isn't good enough to do it for starters, and unlike a Chelsea who had the likes of Drogba, Robben, Duff and the like who could turn a defensive suituation into an attacking one very quickly, we simply don't have that type of player.

I would also go further and say that if you are looking for a player who is going to track back into position each time he loses the ball, then sprint up to support every time you have it before sprinting back again, we shouldn't have bothered getting Joe Cole. Kuyt and Jovanovic are the type of players who thrive on such a system, but not your tricky types who like to drift in and out of pockets.

This is the MAIN thing which I would change if it was me. Lets kick the shackles off and go for an expansive game. As it is we've conceded three, two and two in our last three matches so you can hardly argue that any regimented system is increasing our solidarity any. It isn't, it's obvious to see and once again I'm not going to go down the deny the sky is blue route. It is clearly (the system) hugely impacting upon our attacking threat, with no discernable gain defensively.

We need to do one of two things, and quickly. We either need to make the system work 200% better than it already is (and I can't see how we can TBPH), or we need to bin it. If we must go 4-4-2 (and I think we must given Torres's state of mind and body) then lets get Kuyt up top and give us someone to hit from the back. Lets get Cole on the right and Jovanovic on the left (I don't rate him overly but he's better than Maxi or any of our other options. Then it's Gerrard and Mereiles in the centre, and pick a back four (I'm assuming he won't move Johnson to right midfield).

Lets keep it simple, a nice little 4-4-2 with round pegs in round holes. Lets get ourselves a few points and at least begin to look like a football team again. We can fine tune and revisit "the system" at a later date if we must, but for now lets get our season started.

by **bigmick** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:52 pm

NANNY RED wrote:i have not heard one song about Rafa at any game ive been to since Roy has been here ,so where are you getting this info from Mick,

Redbeergoggles said it in a post about three weeks ago Nan. Obviously I can't totally vouch for how genuine it was in the sense I never heard it myself.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:54 pm

bigmick wrote:If we must go 4-4-2 (and I think we must given Torres's state of mind and body) then lets get Kuyt up top and give us someone to hit from the back. Lets get Cole on the right and Jovanovic on the left (I don't rate him overly but he's better than Maxi or any of our other options. Then it's Gerrard and Mereiles in the centre, and pick a back four (I'm assuming he won't move Johnson to right midfield).

Lets keep it simple, a nice little 4-4-2 with round pegs in round holes. Lets get ourselves a few points and at least begin to look like a football team again. We can fine tune and revisit "the system" at a later date if we must, but for now lets get our season started.

I like the sound of that lineup, Mick. We've got some very winnable games coming up IF we can shed the tentative mentality and play with some belief. I think we saw much more belief from the players when we've switched to 4-4-2 over the last two league matches so let's build on that and look to pummel Blackpool next weekend. I think dishing out one good tonking will do wonders for morale so let's go for it from the off.

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:57 pm

bigmick wrote:While I've made no secret of my belief that many fans on here have let themselves down with their lack of respect for our manager, it's also true to say that there's no point in talking about "positives" if we can't win football matches.

My beef all along is that none of us know for sure one way or the other whether or not Roy is going to make a success of things, so we might as well get behind him and support him until we find out. Judging any manager ("he's obviously out of his depth" and other such nonsense) before October has even started is utterly ridiculous, although observations about his tactical approach and substitutions are more than fair enough. Similarly, criticising him because he doesn't jump around enough is daft, as is having a pop because he doesn't do interviews with his SOS tee shirt on.

All in all we've had an exceptionally difficult start (even yesterdays game was no gimme by any stretch) but so far we obviously aren't playing well. We are going to need to play better, and we're going to need to do it fairly soon if we are to maintain any hopes of a top four slot. I remain convinced however that we have a much better chance of doing that if the fans get behind the team and manager. Booing at matches, singing Rafa songs at matches, flooding forums with ani-Roy rhetoric etc etc isn't helping anyone.

As a footnote, all this Woy stuff ("it's just harmless fun, chill out") has been shown up for what it always was, an attempt to belittle the manager. Because it went on and got accepted, we now have the "owl" stuff, the "head in the hands" stuff and all the other nonsense. I still can't past the irony that these same people positively jumped upon anyone who even thought bad thought about the previous manager. Their hypocracy is positively unbelieveable.

Give the manager a good go is what I say, then if he isn't up to it we can move on at least with a semblence of unity for a change.

by **Benny The Noon** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:17 pm

I must ask a question

Why are fans showing disrespect of the manager because they are critising the way the team is set up currently and the way we are playing , the way we are being dominated both at home and away by lower standard teams , the way we are not creating chances , having only one team with less shots on goal than us . People keep waiting for it to get better , for changes to be done before each game and during the game and these changes not happening - Hodgson keeps saying he is happy with the way the team is set up but it obvious to many people iits not working . He stated that we dominated the game yesterday ?! Did he watch the same game as us ? . Things need to change soon - it keeps getting worse every game and we really need to turn it around - get a morale boosting win , get some goals for Torres, a clean sheet for the cbs and gk - get an undefeated run going - attack teams from the start and not wait until we are behind and in the last ten mins of the game . We went 1 nil up early yesterday and had the perfect chance to captilise on that but we just sat back again .

Get Meireles into the middle , get Gerrard closer to Torres , get Poulsen on the bench . Get them all pushing higher up and putting more pressure on the opposition - get support to Torres and get the ball to him - 7 passes he had yesterday - thats shocking .

Lets turn the corner and get up the table .

by **burjennio** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:37 pm

bigmick wrote:That right there mate is the one criticism of Roy which I wholeheartedly agree with (this "not pressing high enough"). On the "Roy's tactics" thread I talked about the very first time I saw his Liverpool play, and I cannot get to grips with it in terms of it being the right way to go going forward.

The only other top team I can remember adopting even a similarly standoffish approach was Mourinho's Chelsea. They were slightly different in that they used to press the ball selectively in different areas of the pitch, but I've never seen a top side just sit off and let them come (except in Eorope obviously). The problem for us is that our defence isn't good enough to do it for starters, and unlike a Chelsea who had the likes of Drogba, Robben, Duff and the like who could turn a defensive suituation into an attacking one very quickly, we simply don't have that type of player.

Your are quite correct there Mck in that the Mourinho team of 2004-2006 was primarily a counter attacking side, it was a 433 / 451 that relayed on a combative central midfield winning the ball and getting it quickly to the front 3 who were blessed with pace and very direct wingers and had strength and speed through the middle in Drogba and superb passing and shooting of the late arriving Lampard. What made it work was having Makelele as the holding DM who was phenomenal in his role at breaking up the opposition and setting off counters using the quality of his wing men in Duff and Robben (and Cole) setting up Drogba and Gudjohnsen or even God forbid Kezman for the goals. They also has a rock sold defense in Terry, Carvalho and Gallas and Petr Cech when he was still good.

Compare that to what we have, we dont have anyone like Makelele anymore, our defense lacks the organization and incredibly even lacks pace compared to Chelseas 05 era defence. We have Gerrard who is superior to Lampard and Torres who is far superior to Drogba in his first season (he was a far cry from the quality player he became a season or two later) but they cannot be supported when Gerrard is forced deep to help try to win the ball, and no wingers close to as lethal as those two were in both creating and scoring. Couple that with our wide players playing narrow WITHOUT PROPER SUPPORT FROM THE FULLBACKS means we get congested, easy to hustle in a cramped midfield and too often the defense only available option is to pump it to Torres, and our performances continue to be dreck.

We need pace and end product from our wide players (that'd be Babel and Jovanovic so dont hold your breath) which if you think back to 2009 we had in Riera and Benayoun. Peple can harp on about Alonso but fact is he had less assists that season than Dirk Kuyt (Owzat can back me up on that

) when he played from wide right but tucked inside and allowed Arbeloa to could get forward without reneging on his defensive duties. Im looking at you Glen Johnson.

by **Madmax** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:01 pm

4-4-2 works very well but only with natural wingers. All we have is a bunch of players who are shifted out wide and just tend to drift in the middle. Jovanovic, maxi, cole, raul they can't play out wide. Kuyt has played there for a few seasons he does struggle but as at right mid he would be out best choice. If we want width i'd rather shift Glen johnson as a right winger and slot kelly at RB.

by **Benny The Noon** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:18 pm

Madmax wrote:4-4-2 works very well but only with natural wingers. All we have is a bunch of players who are shifted out wide and just tend to drift in the middle. Jovanovic, maxi, cole, raul they can't play out wide. Kuyt has played there for a few seasons he does struggle but as at right mid he would be out best choice. If we want width i'd rather shift Glen johnson as a right winger and slot kelly at RB.

4-4-2 will also work when chasing a game and teams sit deeper as we saw yesterday - but against teams with 3 in the middle you get swamped . But your spot on about needing true wingers - it works for both Spurs and Man Utd because of their wingers.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:19 pm

I'd be happy if we just stuck to the 08/09 template, Poulsen for Masch, Meireles for Alonso, Cole for Riera.

by **Benny The Noon** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:21 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I'd be happy if we just stuck to the 08/09 template, Poulsen for Masch, Meireles for Alonso, Cole for Riera.

At the moment - i would play Gerrard and Meireles in the middle with Cole just ahead Kuyt right and Jovanovic left or Lucas and Meireles , Gerrard just behind Torres Kuyt right and Cole left .

by **LFC2007** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:23 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I'd be happy if we just stuck to the 08/09 template, Poulsen for Masch, Meireles for Alonso, Cole for Riera.

At the moment - i would play Gerrard and Meireles in the middle with Cole just ahead Kuyt right and Jovanovic left.

Or that.

by **Benny The Noon** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:27 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I'd be happy if we just stuck to the 08/09 template, Poulsen for Masch, Meireles for Alonso, Cole for Riera.

At the moment - i would play Gerrard and Meireles in the middle with Cole just ahead Kuyt right and Jovanovic left.

Or that.

That would be my preffered one mate - it could easily switch to 4-4-2 as well with Kuyt moving up alongside Torres and Cole moving out right . It puts a lot of pressure on Cole to support and provide for Torres but he is starting to show signs of it - it also moves Meireles back to his favoured position and ensure Poulsen is not on the pitch .

by **Dundalk** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:36 pm

bigmick wrote:While I've made no secret of my belief that many fans on here have let themselves down with their lack of respect for our manager, it's also true to say that there's no point in talking about "positives" if we can't win football matches.

My beef all along is that none of us know for sure one way or the other whether or not Roy is going to make a success of things, so we might as well get behind him and support him until we find out. Judging any manager ("he's obviously out of his depth" and other such nonsense) before October has even started is utterly ridiculous, although observations about his tactical approach and substitutions are more than fair enough. Similarly, criticising him because he doesn't jump around enough is daft, as is having a pop because he doesn't do interviews with his SOS tee shirt on.

All in all we've had an exceptionally difficult start (even yesterdays game was no gimme by any stretch) but so far we obviously aren't playing well. We are going to need to play better, and we're going to need to do it fairly soon if we are to maintain any hopes of a top four slot. I remain convinced however that we have a much better chance of doing that if the fans get behind the team and manager. Booing at matches, singing Rafa songs at matches, flooding forums with ani-Roy rhetoric etc etc isn't helping anyone.

As a footnote, all this Woy stuff ("it's just harmless fun, chill out") has been shown up for what it always was, an attempt to belittle the manager. Because it went on and got accepted, we now have the "owl" stuff, the "head in the hands" stuff and all the other nonsense. I still can't past the irony that these same people positively jumped upon anyone who even thought bad thought about the previous manager. Their hypocracy is positively unbelieveable.

Give the manager a good go is what I say, then if he isn't up to it we can move on at least with a semblence of unity for a change.

Good post

by **fivecups** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:37 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:If we must go 4-4-2 (and I think we must given Torres's state of mind and body) then lets get Kuyt up top and give us someone to hit from the back. Lets get Cole on the right and Jovanovic on the left (I don't rate him overly but he's better than Maxi or any of our other options. Then it's Gerrard and Mereiles in the centre, and pick a back four (I'm assuming he won't move Johnson to right midfield).

Lets keep it simple, a nice little 4-4-2 with round pegs in round holes. Lets get ourselves a few points and at least begin to look like a football team again. We can fine tune and revisit "the system" at a later date if we must, but for now lets get our season started.

I like the sound of that lineup, Mick. We've got some very winnable games coming up IF we can shed the tentative mentality and play with some belief. I think we saw much more belief from the players when we've switched to 4-4-2 over the last two league matches so let's build on that and look to pummel Blackpool next weekend. I think dishing out one good tonking will do wonders for morale so let's go for it from the off.

I think we will go 4-4-2 based on the last 2 PL matches but I don't see any need to move Kuyt. Things improved when Ngog came on and I think his running into space opens up the opposition, give us a second target and provides more freedom for our other attacking players. Plus, he's scoring goals - lots of them. Johnson will benefit from Kuyts energy and better defensive capablities and he'll also be a bit sharper having played 90 mins since returning from injury. Cole on the left, Gerrard and Meireles in the middle, Skrtel and Carra with Johnson and Agger/Konchesky.

I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 but we've been better playing it the last couple of games. Otherwise as LFC says back to 08/09 and that means Gerrard in the hole.

by **aCe'** » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:38 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I'd be happy if we just stuck to the 08/09 template, Poulsen for Masch, Meireles for Alonso, Cole for Riera.

At the moment - i would play Gerrard and Meireles in the middle with Cole just ahead Kuyt right and Jovanovic left.

Or that.

That would be my preffered one mate - it could easily switch to 4-4-2 as well with Kuyt moving up alongside Torres and Cole moving out right . It puts a lot of pressure on Cole to support and provide for Torres but he is starting to show signs of it - it also moves Meireles back to his favoured position and ensure Poulsen is not on the pitch .

I'd go with that against most sides...

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