Liverpool FC Forum

[Redman in wales]

(I didn’t quite know where to put this, but because it affects us, I thought I’d start it off in here, but if mods want to move it to general etc then that’s fine.)


My thoughts on why Spurs finishing 4th ahead of the money bags of Manchester City finishing 5th is bad for us.

We were all dreading the thought of Manchester City finishing forth and getting into the champions league as we anticipated they would spend big and have the attraction of the champions league to entice big name stars. I fear is that they will still attract big names, and they still have a big wallet to pay them handsomely.

The truth is that with our current ownership we can not compete with City’s spending power. Whether they finish 4th or 5th – they are likely to buy players and bid for players that are out of our financial reach. There’s still talk of them interested in Kaka, Ribery etc, and I bet that where they finished last season would have no bearing on the players we are interested in – it only has an influence on players considering Man City as a destination.

With all their money, Man City would have strengthened whether they finished 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th, and will now be genuine contenders for a top 4 finish next season. I honestly think our main pathway of getting back into the top 4 next season is finishing above Arsenal, as I believe City will be in the mix next season once they’ve spent another £100m.

What worries me more, and what affects Liverpool Football club more is Tottenham Hotspurs increased leverage of the Champions league to attract players. – The same calibre and price range of players that we are trying to strengthen our squad with.

Examples:

Spurs are VERY close to signing Arda Turan. A player we’ve been linked with and who would no doubt improve our first 11. The deal is rumoured to be Dos Santos + £4m, and even with little money, we could have struck something similar with Babel. But spurs now have the attraction of the Champions league, and are able to steel a march on players like this. 

Another common target is 20 year old defender Simon Kjaer. Although we have Danny Agger to try and persuade his Danish compatriot to choose Liverpool as his next destination, Kjaer has publicly stated (quote):
"I want to play in the Champions League, and if we [Palermo] reach that objective then I have no reason to leave."
Palermo did not qualify for the champions league, but it seems one thing driving him is playing in that competition. Spurs have also been linked to him in the past and if he does come to the UK, it may well be to sign for the London based team rather than us.

Yes, had Man City finished forth they would have undoubtedly spent millions on attracting BIG names, but and possiblely become league contenders for next season up there with Chelsea and Utd. But as they finished 5th, they will still spend millions on securing a top 4 berth next season.

For me a greater worry is spurs, who we all might think can not reapet the achivement of finishings 4th again next season, and have the “distraction” of champions league football. They are / will be strengthening their team with players we should be / could be going for even with our financial contraints; making it harder for us to improve, and making them a stronger, and more established contender for a top 4 spot. 

I honestly feel that there is no longer a top 4. The way our owners have cut off our spending power, the way city have, and will continue to spend and Wengers under acheivers. I belive next season, it could be a top 2 pulling away, followed by a group of  4 (us arsenal, city and spurs) then villa and everton not far behind. City will undoubtedly spend their way into contention whether its next season or the season after. For the time being, until we get new owners and we don’t have to seel to buy, I feel our main rivals for finishing places in the league are Arsenal (who look to be losing Fabregas) and Spurs.


Discuss. (if you want to)

[DaMo]

Depends how you look at it, I suppose. City obviously won't be able to attract the same calibre of players that they would have if they finished 4th. Did them finishing 5th merely delay the inevitable? Quite possibly. Alternatively, they could just as easily be in trouble if the media is to be believed about Tevez wanting to leave. Who's to say they'd be able to bring in someone just as good to replace him? Remember when they were supposed to be pursuing Kaka, among others? The cheeky and unrealistic targeting of our Nando only recently? I honestly don't think City are any more attractive to top class players now than they were last year. More mercenaries will undoubtedly come and go this summer, but it won't necessarily make them more of a threat than they were last season.

As for Spurs, they obviously do have an opportunity to add to a squad which, in my opinion has over-achieved.

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but providing we get new owners and don't lose any key players, I firmly believe we have a good chance of qualifying for the CL next season and am not too worried about Spurs & City. I'm more concerned with what we do this summer than what they do.

[Boocity]

I reckon Spurs will do an Everton and get knocked out in the qualifying round. Waste of a champions league place.

[stmichael]

I reckon Spurs will do an Everton and get knocked out in the qualifying round. Waste of a champions league place.

that would be hilarious.

long term they won't be a regular champions league team imo where as city will be. it's only a matter of time.

[SouthCoastShankly]

I think you are wrong about the players City will attract. Essentially they would of had 2 shopping lists - one for a top 4 finish, one without. Not all players will go where the money is, many of the European elite want to play in the CL. It is the one competition that raises your profile more than others. Robinho is the prime example, he went to City subsequently out of the European arena for 2 years and now his value has plummeted, so much so that he goes back to Brazil to play.

Boocity is right, unless Spurs spend big and attract "big" players they stand to fail at the first hurdle. Top name players will not come to a club like spurs until they are established in Europe.

Looking ahead though, the shenanigans at Arsenal currently could very well provide a lifeline to break back into the top 4. Especially if Wenger persists with his "no buy" policy.

[Redman in wales]

I agree that city may not be able to attract the same calibre of players now than if they finished 4th.

I also agree to a certain extent that spurs over-achieved this past season, and will not do that well in the champions league next season.

What I am concerned about is the "poaching" (for want of a better word) of our main targets. Turan, Kjaer, Joe Cole, etc who all want to play champions league football could well be heading to WHite Hart Lane instead of Anfield simply on the back of being in the champions league qualifying stages and we're not.

edit: just to continue on that point - There are two types of signings that could improve our starting 11:

- World class players who will nearly always cost big money (which we cant afford, but city can)

- good / young / out of contract players such as those listed above, which we can afford, but now face competition from spurs who can offer them champions league football (at least for the start of the season anyway)

At the moment, with no new investment, there is no reason that we can guarenttee any potential player champions league the following season more than man city or arsenal

[bigmick]

I actually think Spurs have developed into a good team and will be right up there challenging for the top four again next season. I don't FWIW expect them to go too well in the Champions League because they haven't got the experience, but they'll be one of five teams who will be challenging for the top four places.

[andy_g]

that's exactly it about spurs - they have become a good team. and without mega bucks too. say what you like about harry redknapp and is various misdemeanours but he's done a great job there, he's bought some good players, has a nice balanced squad, and generated a sense of unity. you could see from the video of his players chucking the tub of water over him and his reaction to it how much of a bond there is between them all. i think they will carry on doing well and will probably attract a couple of good players over the summer. i'm not sure they'll attract the younger more ambitious players just yet but maybe some of the late twenties or early thirties players that want a new contract and some (more) CL footie would be well tempted. enough to give them some solid ground to keep building at least.

city still don't worry me too much as of yet as they always have an air of instability about them and have done for years. its a club without a great history or prestige, they keep changing managers and they keep upsetting and changing players. its the kind of club that despite throwing a billion pounds at might not ever achieve the stability and cache necessary to attract the best and to keep the project on the up. if they don't make top 4 next season - and i don't think they will - i think the big identity crisis might just kick in and it might start to wobble again.

[Owzat]

I think it's hard to say which is/would have been worse for us, spudz or citeh finishing 4th. I would say citeh finishing 4th might just have upped the quality of player they could attract as they have a bottomless pit of money, but couldn't attract anyone last season and may struggle this season. spudz could attract good players anyway, not maybe the very best as they couldn't afford them or offer the same fees or wages, but I'd be more worried about what citeh could have gained from 4th over spudz.

spudz may fizzle out, I'm not convinced this is now spudz in the 'big four' any more than I'm convinced citeh would have cemented their place in the 'big four'. I doubt the very best footballers will go to a club merely because they've qualified for the Champions League, this being their first time as it would have been citeh's. The very best would want to be winning trophies and at a club that expects Champions League football, in that respect we still have an edge over the other two, well if we threatened to win a trophy rather than bail out quite early (domestic cups mainly).

[kazza]

say what you like about harry redknapp and is various misdemeanours

Ahh like being "on the take", various tax discrepancies and basically putting Portsmouth in the sh1t. Spurs have been spending plenty for a while and were tipped every year for a CL place. Law of averages states that eventually they'll get lucky ,which they did.

Rednapp did nothing more than take a set of players that were under performing, add a couple and put his arm around the rest to get the best from them. This may work initially, but not long term. I do not think they will be a threat next year.

[fivecups]

I'm sure no-one really wants to do the whole numbers arguement again Andy, and I agree that Spurs played more as a team than us last season (our biggest problem IMO) but Spurs have spent more than we have, net and gross, since Rafa's been in charge.

[andy_g]

say what you like about harry redknapp and is various misdemeanours

Ahh like being "on the take", various tax discrepancies and basically putting Portsmouth in the sh1t. Spurs have been spending plenty for a while and were tipped every year for a CL place. Law of averages states that eventually they'll get lucky ,which they did.

Rednapp did nothing more than take a set of players that were under performing, add a couple and put his arm around the rest to get the best from them. This may work initially, but not long term. I do not think they will be a threat next year.

as i said, say what you like about it.

surely taking a set of players that were underperforming, adding a couple (its been more than a couple, but we won't worry about that) and putting his arm around them to get the best out of them - and thereby playing excellent football all season and gaining a top 4 spot at the expense of a team who has outspent them for the last few seasons - is pretty good management.

spurs haven't exactly been tipped every year, but what people have said (these being mostly the know nothing pundits who are handy to dismiss at other times) is that they are one of the possible contenders to upset the established big 4. not quite sure how the law of averages applies here.

maybe that's the best explanation for our predicament this season. its not bad management, bad ownership or bad players - its just the law of averages.

[SouthCoastShankly]

I agree that city may not be able to attract the same calibre of players now than if they finished 4th.

I also agree to a certain extent that spurs over-achieved this past season, and will not do that well in the champions league next season.

What I am concerned about is the "poaching" (for want of a better word) of our main targets. Turan, Kjaer, Joe Cole, etc who all want to play champions league football could well be heading to WHite Hart Lane instead of Anfield simply on the back of being in the champions league qualifying stages and we're not.

edit: just to continue on that point - There are two types of signings that could improve our starting 11:

- World class players who will nearly always cost big money (which we cant afford, but city can)

- good / young / out of contract players such as those listed above, which we can afford, but now face competition from spurs who can offer them champions league football (at least for the start of the season anyway)

At the moment, with no new investment, there is no reason that we can guarenttee any potential player champions league the following season more than man city or arsenal

Another problem I have is why you seem to take internet/newspaper rumours as gospel?

I have not seen or heard anything near credible about Liverpool's attempts to sign Turan, Kjaer, Joe Cole, etc. All I have seen is dubious rumouring on here and occasional gossip column comments, let alone these players being our "main targets".

[tubby]

It doesn't really matter who of the 2 finished 4th, the bottom line for us is we didn't and unless there is a shift in ownership we will not get back into the top 4.

[7_Kewell]

It doesn't really matter who of the 2 finished 4th, the bottom line for us is we didn't and unless there is a shift in ownership we will not get back into the top 4.

you see bav, this is why the whole 'anti-rafa' argument kicks off every 5 mins here. yeah, the owners are to blame, but so's the manager.

After 6 years and 200+ million and 100 players, things should be better on and off the pitch.