Liverpool FC Forum

by **jacdaniel** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:04 am

I have seen it mentioned by several posters that Rodgers could / even should be sacked if we fail to finish in the top 4. It really makes me wonder though whether we should realistically be finishing in such a position. All the evidence would point to no for me.
City and Chelsea have billionaire owners and both can attract top players on top wages. Hell they can even sign back up strikers for 30M.
United are in a fairly similar position. Their revenues are so large that they can also afford ridiculous wages and transfer fees without breaching FFP. One poor season doesn't mean we should instantly expect to stay ahead of them for long when their pockets are so deep.
Arsenal are also beginning to reap the rewards of their stadium are now starting to shop around the higher end of the market as well as having CL money for the last 17 years or so.

Liverpool, to my knowledge at least, would only be the 5th or 6th richest club in the PL. Lets look at a few common things we as fans discuss:

1) We should be signing quality instead of quantity.

I am sure Rodgers would love to be in a position to sign marquee players. The main problem is that we can't afford them. Sure we might be able to pay the original fee but we don't have the ability to pay the 100 - 200K a week they would demand. Just look at the wages that United, City and Chelsea are able to offer and it will become clear why many players will choose them over us.

2) We challenged for the title and have spent big money... top 4 challenge is the minimum requirment

While this is true, one cannot simply ignore the fact that most of the money was generated by losing our best player Suarez. In addition we have lost experienced players like Carra and Agger over the last few seasons and now Gerrard will also follow.

Yes, we have spent a decent bit of money but we need to take into consideration what we have lost.

3) Why do we sign so many young players

This is FSG's transfer policy and our only realistic way of competing against the top sides. While we can't afford to really purchase star players, we can build a young side and hope they develop well together. If they mature together we will in theory have a really good spine to build on. Hopefully by then the stadium will be generating some more money and we can start to spend more.

Basically, we are laying the foundations to hopefully have long term stability. Probably the most depressing thread anybody can ready but i believe its realistic. We are an underdog in the modern game hoping to pull off an upset each season.

by **Shanks Forever** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:06 pm

You can probably answer that question yourself.

Bearing in mind how much our manager has spent thus far to build a squad, I would say yes.

We are Liverpool, not Newcastle Utd or West Brom. Bearing that in.mind, 4th place should be the very minimum. I think it should be at least third actually for any LFC manager to keep his job.
I don't really agree with the sentiment.."well give the manager 3/4/5 seasons to develop his plan"..... Protecting him like he is a poor vulnerable baby lamb out in.the cold and rain

whilst the fans agonise in.turmoil season after season, with lack of success.

Br is probably on 3m a year wages, got the 6 bed mansion in Formby with swimming pool and sauna and six acres, got the Bentley, and spent 150m + on.the squad, and that comes with high expectation and pressure. I don't do sentiment and wish our board can be more ruthless.

I.dont really like yankee owners full stop, as they don't know football, i.prefer the Arabs. They run.things more efficiently.

Utd got rid of Moyes in.less than a season, so.obviously they were a bit concerned that standards were slipping.

So where do.we stand?

by **parchpea** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:21 pm

Reports suggest our wage bill puts us 5th which is our average finishing position over the last 10 years.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:21 pm

Well considering we went 5 seasons without qualifying for the CL it would be extremely harsh to sack the one manager that actually got us back in it. Rodgers is a good manager now but I think he'll develop into a fantastic manager, getting rid of him for finishing outside the top 4 would be incredibly short sighted.

by **parchpea** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:48 pm

Man United reportedly DOUBLE our wage bill then there's Man City and Chelsea.

Arsenal have a higher wage bill than us so we are Spurs really and have achieved so much more than them lets
be honest, that's our mark.

FSG saved us but we wont go much further without the Arab investment and last year was a one off chance in
truth.

Accept the inevitable deep down but keep reaching for the stars, I hope FSG do us up then sell us on so we can
truly compete.

Massive wage and transfer fees are the path to top players with or without Champs League football, they don't
give a toss, United have proved that.

by **Reg** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:17 am

1) We should be signing quality instead of quantity.

It was explained we needed to expand the squad (headcount) to enable us to compete within CL and domestically at the same time so brought in more mid-talent lads rather than marquee. I guess the aim now we're established a higher standard throughout the squad would be to bring in better quality.

2) We challenged for the title and have spent big money... top 4 challenge is the minimum requirement

We're still in transition. I agree with what you say but hopefully now we have brought in some lads who are showing potential, investment in key positions will be more focused and specific which will allow those targets to immediate play to their potential as well as lift the games of their team mates - the Suarez affect.

3) Why do we sign so many young players

'We are an underdog in the modern game hoping to pull off an upset each season.' Correct. Who controls football - the agents. First we have to convince the agents we're serious then the good players will come. The way ManU and Chelsea sweep up the best players is crazy, even when Ure was out of favour players flocked to them. Liverpool have not convinced the agents their players' careers will continue on an upward trajectory at LFC. That will take another 4-5 years. Even Citeh can't compete with Ure and Chelsea.

Ok, finally you have to look at wages as a % of income and of course how well the club is run as a business. We earned just 45 million on matchday compared to Arsenal's 93. Thats how desperately we need a new stadium. Ou wages are 64% of turnover compared to Ure at 50%. Yikes. We can't attract the players and even those we can, we can't afford. Ure: Net Debts: £295m, Interest and other finance costs: £72m. 24% interest!! Good luck!! I put Southampton's numbers there so you can see what a crackin' job their doing, Cloughie would be proud.

Parchpea, we can't double the wages bill until we have the business turnover and success to support it.

But to answer the question, should we be top 4.... it will be difficult without any top players. We're at Arsenal's stage of development say 3-4 years ago. So hopefully yes, guaranteed, no way.

The good old days of footy being about kicking a football.......

Premier League Team’s Wage Bills 2011-2014
NO# TEAM 11-12 12-13 13-14
1 Man City £202m £233m £242m
2 Chelsea £173m £179m £190m
3 Man Utd £162m £181m £187m
4 Arsenal £143m £154m £162m
5 Liverpool £119m £132m £140m
6 Tottenham £90m £96m £112m
17 Southampton £29m £47m £52m

ARSENAL
Turnover: 2nd highest in league, £283m (up from £245m in 2012)
Gate and Matchday income: £93m
TV and Broadcasting: £86m
Retail: £18m
Commercial: £44m
Property Development: £38m
Player Trading: £2m
Wage bill: 4th highest, £154m (up from £143m)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 54%
Profit before tax: £7m (down from £37m)
Net debt: £93m
Interest payable: £14m

CHELSEA
Turnover: 4th highest in league, £260m (same as 2012)
Broadcasting: £105m
Matchday: £71m
Commercial: £84m
Wage bill: 3rd highest, £179m (up from £173m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 69%
Loss before tax: £56m (following £4m in 2012)
Net debt: £958m
Interest payable: £Nil

LIVERPOOL
Turnover: 5th in league, £206m (up from £169m in 2012)
Gate and matchday income: £45m
TV and broadcasting: £64m
Commercial activities: £98m
Wage bill: 5th highest, £132m (up from £119m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 64%
Loss before tax: £50m (following £41m in 2012)
Net debt: £114m
Interest payable: £4m

MANCHESTER CITY
Turnover: 3rd highest in league, £271m (up from £231m in 2012)
Gate and matchday: £40m
TV and broadcasting: £88m
Commercial activities: £143m
Wage bill: 1st – highest in the league, £233m (up from £202m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 86%
Loss before tax: £52m (following £99m in 2012)
Net debt: £54m
Interest payable: £4m

MANCHESTER UNITED
Turnover: 1st in league, £363m (up from £320m in 2012)
Gate and matchday income: £109m
TV and broadcasting: £102m
Commercial activities: £153m
Wage bill: 2nd highest, £181m (up from £162m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 50%
Loss before tax: £9m (following £5m loss in 2012)
Net Debts: £295m
Interest and other finance costs: £72m

SOUTHAMPTON
Turnover: 14th in league, £72m (up from £23m in 2012)
Matchday: £17m
Premier League and broadcasting: £47m
Commercial activities: £7m
Other income: £1m
Wage bill: 18th in league, £47m (up from £29m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 65%
Loss before tax: £7m (following £12m loss in previous year)
Net debt: £19m
Interest payable: £0.6m

TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR
Turnover: 6th in league, £147m (up from £144m in 2012)
Match receipts: £33m
TV and media: £57m
All commercial activities: £57m
Wage bill: 6th highest, £96m (up from £90m in 2012)
Wages as proportion of turnover: 65%
Profit before tax: £4m (up from £7m loss in 2012)
Net debt: £55m
Interest payable: £8m

by **Boocity** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:26 am

Our matchday receipts will increase significantly when the stadium revamp is complete, especially the hospitality section, our commercial activities are exceptional and really only second to ManU as city's are all with Abu Dhabi companies which are effectively subsidies. The one thing FSG are good at is commercial opportunities. The TV and media receipts are based upon success so the more successful you are with CL football and such the more money you receive. A successful Liverpool will always attract more TV and media coverage than most of the others. If we want to increase our turnover in Media, Commercial etc then it is imperative we are constantly in the top 4, winning trophys and playing in the CL, this will allow us to increase the wage bill and sign marque players, success breeds success and its not about having a sugar daddy owner. What a SD allowed Chelsea and Man City do was invest massively in players, salaries and top managers to get to the top quickly, with FFP that would not happen these days. Looking at the current figures and saying we should accept our lot and be happy with 5th is a defeatist attitude and i am sure its not what FSG, the manager ,the team or the fans want or will accept.The H&G years and immediate aftermathwere an period we must put behind us and try to forget and get back to where we were, that period was an exception and not the norm and is not what LFC's posistion should be based upon

by **woof woof !** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:32 am

Cheers Reg, Interesting stats to digest there.

I knew their salaries were high but FK ME ! Man City wages 86% of turnover, the mind boggles

by **Salty Sock** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:38 am

I'm say one more season for MR. Rodger.

-Suarez was making us look the better but look at Barca - I drink a bottle for every goal and I am not drunk!
-What signings?
-What money?
-Other teams strengthen

by **killerp** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:18 am

In answer to the thread topic...no we should not. We are in a transitional state and likely to become even worse with the departure of Gerrard.

Chelsea and city are automatic top 4

Manure will spend another £500m to get back in. Arsenal has just proved with a victory against a big team that they will be up there again like every year.

And that leaves us.. Still trying to figure out how to defend and how to not get Sturridge injured. Our only striker!

Having inexperienced non footballing baseball fan owners will make top 4 unrealistic for this club. With fsg at the helm we are maybe 10-15 years away from competing at our current rate. Think about the fact that no quality player would been seen dead here with our setup,we are simply not in the market to sign a player that could make the difference. That is also a problem for players here, lack of ambition will see the best players leave unless you want to pay a 20 yr old £150k+ a week in wages.

I have yet to see liverpool fc under current ownership make one signing that confirms they are competant and interested in competing and make top 4 realistic. Coutinho and Sturridge both are excellent when in form and playing but both come with major issues as does any product purchased from the bargain bin, they don't count as finished quality product. If those two are the limit of our recruitment ability, we will remain ok'ish.

Fsg should have bought into a smaller club to match their ambitions... Say Sunderland or QPR..

We need that billionaire owner to expect a top 4 finish every year, just make deals happen and not fook around the way we do and get over charged for unpolished rubbish.

by **Reg** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:55 am

Dude, I gonna send you a replica of the league trophy so you can run round your village showing your mates because in reality winning the real thing isn't going to be so easy as signing up a billionaire and its all stairway to heaven.

By the way... stadium naming rights are worth what? Whats outrageous? 200 million over 10 years? 20 million a year?
If we used our same 65% wage ratio that would give us 13 million to play with, say 4 million for employers taxes = 9 million nett or 173,000 a week. Feck me Roooney's on TWICE that !!

by **leeroy74** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:44 pm

killerp » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:18 am wrote:
We need that billionaire owner to expect a top 4 finish every year, just make deals happen and not fook around the way we do and get over charged for unpolished rubbish.

A billionaire owner is more than likely a billionaire because of their clever business deals earning them their fortunes.
yeah you'd rather we paid £50m + for players who demand wages of £200k per week that would take our wage bill well over our income which in turn would bankrupt us, put us into administration and subsequently end Liverpool FC?

I see where your going with that

by **red till i die!!** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:23 pm

Yes we should be finishing in the top 4 seeing as we almost won the feckin thing last year. Winning it this year would be a tough ask but it will have been some slide if we don't even get into the top 4 places.
Its all about progress and we haven't done enough to either maintain that challenge for the league or strengthen like our rivals. It has allowed manure to stroll back up the table and left us open to clubs like soton who had a good transfer window and west ham who are benefitting from having an established team. We will be losing more players also like johnson, gerrard and lucas so that will mean back in for more kids as what we have isn't an upgrade on what we will lose. Most on here are now calling it transition :laugh:

but what are we transitioning from ? Transition :nod

We are always in transition :nod

From those stats reg posted does anyone not find it alarming that our wage bill has actually increased ? We have got rid of all the high wages and replaced them with kids on a fraction of their salaries. When FSG took over two of their highest priorities was cutting the wage bill and FFP and after a few years of implementing changes we are no closer to improving both. Its laughable. If we don't get CL this year will it then mean we have an unsustainable wage bill :eyebrow

FFP is *****, It ensures you will never catch up on the clubs ahead of you but also by the same logic keeps the clubs behind you at bay. They are more than happy to survive in that climate.

by **jacdaniel** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:33 pm

We shouldn't really judge ourselves on last season though. I think we can all agree it was a great season and a combination of ourselves over achieving and other teams under achieving.

We gave ourselves a really good platform to build on though. But sadly Luis chose to leave. And sadly Sturridge got injured for 6 months. It was never going to be easy to handle that those situations. They scored 50% of our goals last season.

On top of that, Agger decided to call it a day. Not too sure exactly what happened there but from what I've read Agger seemed happy enough to move on, didn't feel capable of performing in such a physical league anymore. Now Gerrard has also decided to move on this summer.

And although we appear to have made some very good signings, its the ones we needed most that have flopped.

In my opinion, we had a platform to build on but we've failed to do so due to key players moving on, getting injured and newer players failing to hit the ground running.

For those reasons, I am going to try and enjoy the rest of the season while acknowledging that it won't be a massive failure should we fail to finish top 4.

by **killerp** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:21 am

Reg » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:55 am wrote:Dude, I gonna send you a replica of the league trophy so you can run round your village showing your mates because in reality winning the real thing isn't going to be so easy as signing up a billionaire and its all stairway to heaven.

By the way... stadium naming rights are worth what? Whats outrageous? 200 million over 10 years? 20 million a year?
If we used our same 65% wage ratio that would give us 13 million to play with, say 4 million for employers taxes = 9 million nett or 173,000 a week. Feck me Roooney's on TWICE that !!

I don't want to wake up one day with a long grey beard discussing all the rare times we came second in my life time, I want to win the fookin thing once or at least look serious again!

To even the playing field and be able to call it a fair sport you need more money than common sense. Granted that money can be used to buy a truckload of garbage if used by the wrong people as we have demonstrated here at this club many times. The right people need to make our footballing decisions and as it stands the wrong people are in those critical jobs right now. That would also need to change along with the ownership.

Will LFC be financial sustainable in 20 years time under this ownership, absolutely yes. Will we win a title in that time.... yes if crude oil hits 99p a barrel

If Raheem is the next player to leave and we replace him with the same quality as Suarez's replacement, :help

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