Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

Completely disagree and have never judged a player on form.

Never will.

Ability is what a player should be judged on. Form is temporary.

To say he's the best striker in the country is extremely far fetched, first he'd have to be the best at the club he's playing at and if anyone is going to tell me he's better than Suarez...

Then I'll gladly give you loads of tips on how to get started playing golf

Danny like the vast majority of strikers is very selfish. Is that a real problem? Should he have passed the ball instead of scoring when it looked almost impossible against Villa? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1iaKxU-vU

I totally agree that some of his decision making is questionable but exactly the same can be said about Suarez and let's face it they don't come much more selfish than Luis. Given their goal scoring record (especially Danny's) I'll save my concerns for another day. No footballer is perfect. They all make mistakes. Your criticism of Johnson was harsh. Your analysis of Sturridge is downright unreasonable but we are all entitled to an opinion......I suppose 

To be honest I don't like that type of player. Feeling the need to be the hero doesn't do it for me. Its like an inferiority complex.

For me, watching Suarez, he's been getting himself into positions and people were off the pace with him the last couple of years so I can understand why he's taken shots on, also Suarez is a far better player than Sturridge will ever be.

Taking a shot on, when someone else is in a better position is poor play unless its someone who has a world class shot (as an attribute)... IE you're playing in a game, you spot a ball onto Gerrard's right foot from thirty yards, Lucas runs onto and hits it with his left before it makes it to Gerrard... that to me is as poor a decision as trying to play a through ball from a deep position for Crouch to chase against a defender like Ferdinand in his pomp... one time in fifty it might work, but the normality is it won't.

Football is a game of percentages and I would much rather someone do the right thing than the wrong thing.

Unfortunately I can see when Sturridge has a bad patch, everyone will be on his back due to the over hyping of him now... either that or they will make excuses for him, neither of which will do the team any good.

[Fowler_E7]

I think fifth or six is realistic. I can't see it being better than that.

Suarez is a fabulous player, Gerrard too, even at his age. Enrique is quality and Coutinho has alot about him... but beyond that I don't see any really good players.

Sturridge is ok and will do well in a good side, but he's nothing special for me, he has to many major weaknesses (reminds me a bit of Andy Cole) and the amount of times he should pass and doesn't is really starting to grate my nerves. Agger is another who is ok, as are Aspas and Lucas, but they aren't top players.

The rest of the team like Johnson, Skyrtel, Allen, Henderson are quite frankly embarrassments to the shirt in my opinion.

If we can sign a quality right back, centre half and forward thinking midfielder (similar to Yaya Toure (in style) aswell as getting Pepe back next season then we may be in business, but for me we are still at least four players away from anything like a realistic challenge, as promising as the start is.

[Fowler_E7]

Completely disagree and have never judged a player on form.

Never will.

Ability is what a player should be judged on. Form is temporary.

To say he's the best striker in the country is extremely far fetched, first he'd have to be the best at the club he's playing at and if anyone is going to tell me he's better than Suarez...

Then I'll gladly give you loads of tips on how to get started playing golf

Danny like the vast majority of strikers is very selfish. Is that a real problem? Should he have passed the ball instead of scoring when it looked almost impossible against Villa? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1iaKxU-vU

I totally agree that some of his decision making is questionable but exactly the same can be said about Suarez and let's face it they don't come much more selfish than Luis. Given their goal scoring record (especially Danny's) I'll save my concerns for another day. No footballer is perfect. They all make mistakes. Your criticism of Johnson was harsh. Your analysis of Sturridge is downright unreasonable but we are all entitled to an opinion......I suppose 

To be honest I don't like that type of player. Feeling the need to be the hero doesn't do it for me. Its like an inferiority complex.

For me, watching Suarez, he's been getting himself into positions and people were off the pace with him the last couple of years so I can understand why he's taken shots on, also Suarez is a far better player than Sturridge will ever be.

Taking a shot on, when someone else is in a better position is poor play unless its someone who has a world class shot (as an attribute)... IE you're playing in a game, you spot a ball onto Gerrard's right foot from thirty yards, Lucas runs onto and hits it with his left before it makes it to Gerrard... that to me is as poor a decision as trying to play a through ball from a deep position for Crouch to chase against a defender like Ferdinand in his pomp... one time in fifty it might work, but the normality is it won't.

Football is a game of percentages and I would much rather someone do the right thing than the wrong thing.

Unfortunately I can see when Sturridge has a bad patch, everyone will be on his back due to the over hyping of him now... either that or they will make excuses for him, neither of which will do the team any good.

First of all welcome Stu, your always good for starting good quality debate. As for views I see their as strong as ever! Lol but I feel your being extremely harsh in criticisms of Johnson and Sturridge. I agree that Henderson, Lucas, Allen and Skretl are not good enough for a team that wants to challenge for honours, they don’t have the required quality. Johnson has been one of the top right backs in the league for about 4 years now IMO and I cant understand the amount of stick he gets, he’s a great athlete, skilful, can score and create and isn’t bad defensively, he’s everything a modern fullback should be.

In regards to Sturridge I agree with your criticism, he is far too greedy and his decision making is poor at times however he is still fairly young and  has time to improve this side of this game. What he does however is the ability to score goals on a consistent basis, that is as clear as day. He can score spectacular individual goals, can shoot, scores tap ins and has pace to burn to score one on ones from through balls, he is poor in the air though. Scoring goals regularly is the hardest thing in football and Sturridge knows how to do it and with quality service around him he will continue to thrive I am convinced of that, he wont ever be a Messi or Suarez but he will be a top quality player. Hes actually quite similar to Suarez in some ways at the same age, if you watched Suarez for Ajax he was ridiculously greedy and barely passed to anyone if he was in 30 yards of the goal, hes still very greedy now but he’s channelled it and makes better decisions when to go for the individual effort or when to pass to a team mate in a better position, I believe Sturridge can do the same.

[Stu the Red]

First of all welcome Stu, your always good for starting good quality debate. As for views I see their as strong as ever! Lol but I feel your being extremely harsh in criticisms of Johnson and Sturridge. I agree that Henderson, Lucas, Allen and Skretl are not good enough for a team that wants to challenge for honours, they don’t have the required quality. Johnson has been one of the top right backs in the league for about 4 years now IMO and I cant understand the amount of stick he gets, he’s a great athlete, skilful, can score and create and isn’t bad defensively, he’s everything a modern fullback should be.

In regards to Sturridge I agree with your criticism, he is far too greedy and his decision making is poor at times however he is still fairly young and  has time to improve this side of this game. What he does however is the ability to score goals on a consistent basis, that is as clear as day. He can score spectacular individual goals, can shoot, scores tap ins and has pace to burn to score one on ones from through balls, he is poor in the air though. Scoring goals regularly is the hardest thing in football and Sturridge knows how to do it and with quality service around him he will continue to thrive I am convinced of that, he wont ever be a Messi or Suarez but he will be a top quality player. Hes actually quite similar to Suarez in some ways at the same age, if you watched Suarez for Ajax he was ridiculously greedy and barely passed to anyone if he was in 30 yards of the goal, hes still very greedy now but he’s channelled it and makes better decisions when to go for the individual effort or when to pass to a team mate in a better position, I believe Sturridge can do the same.

Oh Johnson, I believe him to be amateurish with his decision making and choice of pass. He has a poor touch and his tactical knowledge of when to break forward is awful. In the united match he nearly cost us a goal in the first minute with such a shocking decision. Also the amount of times he gives the ball away is criminal. There was a game last year against Arsenal where he touched the ball 48 times, 33 of those times the next player to touch a ball was an arsenal player. I think three or four were after a tackle (so I wouldn't hold those against him). If he was that good, Chelsea wouldn't have struggled for a right back for years, they would have just kept him. To be honest, I was never a fan of Arbeloa, I thought he was truely average, but i'd take him over Johnson any day of the week.

On Sturridge, I haven't actually criticsized him. All I said was the truth and you can't compare him to Suarez, totally unfair as Suarez is a world class player, Sturridge is a premiership player. On the age thing, I'm sorry but we've had all this before...

"When Baros learns to get his head up he'll be better than Owen" Baros is thirty odd and still plays with his head down.
"When Sissoko learns to pass he'll be the new Vieira" Never learnt to pass, went backwards.
"When Babel learns to be consistent he'll be the new Henry"... yada yada yada....

It never happens. It never will, if he doesn't pass at 18, he's not going to at 30. Players have level's of ability, an attribute, which is consistency and quality. IE Cisse could have played for anyone and would always be lightening quick... Alonso can play for anyone and always be a great passer... but you'll never see Cisse all of a sudden become great passer... or Alonso gain pace... It just doesn't happen. All attributes in players are pretty fixed by 17/18... consistency will improve slightly and experience will help them utilize what they have, they may improve very slightly as they get older in one or two areas... but not by the margins some people think.

[Stu the Red]

Disclaimer* you can obviously get the odd exception, but it tends to be an exception rather than a rule and those players its usually a physical transformation.

[Fowler_E7]

First of all welcome Stu, your always good for starting good quality debate. As for views I see their as strong as ever! Lol but I feel your being extremely harsh in criticisms of Johnson and Sturridge. I agree that Henderson, Lucas, Allen and Skretl are not good enough for a team that wants to challenge for honours, they don’t have the required quality. Johnson has been one of the top right backs in the league for about 4 years now IMO and I cant understand the amount of stick he gets, he’s a great athlete, skilful, can score and create and isn’t bad defensively, he’s everything a modern fullback should be.

In regards to Sturridge I agree with your criticism, he is far too greedy and his decision making is poor at times however he is still fairly young and  has time to improve this side of this game. What he does however is the ability to score goals on a consistent basis, that is as clear as day. He can score spectacular individual goals, can shoot, scores tap ins and has pace to burn to score one on ones from through balls, he is poor in the air though. Scoring goals regularly is the hardest thing in football and Sturridge knows how to do it and with quality service around him he will continue to thrive I am convinced of that, he wont ever be a Messi or Suarez but he will be a top quality player. Hes actually quite similar to Suarez in some ways at the same age, if you watched Suarez for Ajax he was ridiculously greedy and barely passed to anyone if he was in 30 yards of the goal, hes still very greedy now but he’s channelled it and makes better decisions when to go for the individual effort or when to pass to a team mate in a better position, I believe Sturridge can do the same.

Oh Johnson, I believe him to be amateurish with his decision making and choice of pass. He has a poor touch and his tactical knowledge of when to break forward is awful. In the united match he nearly cost us a goal in the first minute with such a shocking decision. Also the amount of times he gives the ball away is criminal. There was a game last year against Arsenal where he touched the ball 48 times, 33 of those times the next player to touch a ball was an arsenal player. I think three or four were after a tackle (so I wouldn't hold those against him). If he was that good, Chelsea wouldn't have struggled for a right back for years, they would have just kept him. To be honest, I was never a fan of Arbeloa, I thought he was truely average, but i'd take him over Johnson any day of the week.

On Sturridge, I haven't actually criticsized him. All I said was the truth and you can't compare him to Suarez, totally unfair as Suarez is a world class player, Sturridge is a premiership player. On the age thing, I'm sorry but we've had all this before...

"When Baros learns to get his head up he'll be better than Owen" Baros is thirty odd and still plays with his head down.
"When Sissoko learns to pass he'll be the new Vieira" Never learnt to pass, went backwards.
"When Babel learns to be consistent he'll be the new Henry"... yada yada yada....

It never happens. It never will, if he doesn't pass at 18, he's not going to at 30. Players have level's of ability, an attribute, which is consistency and quality. IE Cisse could have played for anyone and would always be lightening quick... Alonso can play for anyone and always be a great passer... but you'll never see Cisse all of a sudden become great passer... or Alonso gain pace... It just doesn't happen. All attributes in players are pretty fixed by 17/18... consistency will improve slightly and experience will help them utilize what they have, they may improve very slightly as they get older in one or two areas... but not by the margins some people think.

There is a difference between the examples you have given and Sturridge though. Baros and Sissoko lacked in technical areas, which I agree cant be developed or changed much with age. Sturridges weaknesses are all mental, being greedy is a common trait with talented young players and can be improved with experience and greater appreciation for team mates. If you watch and youth team football you will regularly see that the star player are often greedy and selfish but a good player or coach can help to stamp this out, Sturridge will always be greedy but I think he can improve to be less greedy and a better team player if that makes sense.

[Stu the Red]

There is a difference between the examples you have given and Sturridge though. Baros and Sissoko lacked in technical areas, which I agree cant be developed or changed much with age. Sturridges weaknesses are all mental, being greedy is a common trait with talented young players and can be improved with experience and greater appreciation for team mates. If you watch and youth team football you will regularly see that the star player are often greedy and selfish but a good player or coach can help to stamp this out, Sturridge will always be greedy but I think he can improve to be less greedy and a better team player if that makes sense.

But its less greedy by a small margin, not enough to make a difference when there are other weak area's of your game. Defoe was a good example, if Sturridge proves to be nearly half as good as Defoe then we've got a decent player, but for me, I don't think he's that level either.

Five goals in the opening four games is great... but I reckon he'll be hard pushed to beat twenty and I seriously doubt he'll score twenty league goals, my bet would be around 15 or 16.

People are deluding themselves. Liverpool will struggle to finish top four... thats either because, Suarez, Gerrard, Enrique and Coutinho aren't as good as people think... or its because the others aren't as good as people think. I've seen enough from the four i've mentioned to see they are class.

[stmichael]

On Coutinho, he's certainly had a bit of a dip but that was expected to happen at some stage. Becasue he was almost an unknown quantity when he came here defences didn't really know what to expect he tore the place up with his vision and movement. People need to remember that the kid is still only 20 years old though and still adapting.

Rodgers has already said that he'll move Coutinho in behind Sturridge and play Suarez from a wider are when he comes back from his ban which is a no-brainer for me. Coutinho has to play central where he can get on the ball more. The question then is who plays on the other side. Aspas is still learning the league, Sterling is still a kid. That only leaves Henderson really.

[Fowler_E7]

There is a difference between the examples you have given and Sturridge though. Baros and Sissoko lacked in technical areas, which I agree cant be developed or changed much with age. Sturridges weaknesses are all mental, being greedy is a common trait with talented young players and can be improved with experience and greater appreciation for team mates. If you watch and youth team football you will regularly see that the star player are often greedy and selfish but a good player or coach can help to stamp this out, Sturridge will always be greedy but I think he can improve to be less greedy and a better team player if that makes sense.

But its less greedy by a small margin, not enough to make a difference when there are other weak area's of your game. Defoe was a good example, if Sturridge proves to be nearly half as good as Defoe then we've got a decent player, but for me, I don't think he's that level either.

Five goals in the opening four games is great... but I reckon he'll be hard pushed to beat twenty and I seriously doubt he'll score twenty league goals, my bet would be around 15 or 16.

People are deluding themselves. Liverpool will struggle to finish top four... thats either because, Suarez, Gerrard, Enrique and Coutinho aren't as good as people think... or its because the others aren't as good as people think. I've seen enough from the four i've mentioned to see they are class.

Have to disagree with you again there, Sturridge is on different level from Defoe who has never fulfilled his potential as a kid, he was supposed to be the next Michael Owen but never kicked on. Defoe is 10-15 goals man were Sturridge has the ability to get 20-25, he’s far more ruthless in front of the net and is a better athlete than Defoe.

We wont finish that’s for sure, but that’s not because of Sturridge. It’s the likes of Skretl, Allen, Henderson, Lucas and Alberto who bring the quality levels down. If you look at any top team they have around 7 great players and 4 decent they can carry. We only have one genuine world class player in Suarez, Gerrard, is still great but getting old, Couthino and Sturridge have excellent ability and could be top class in future, especially Couthino. Johnson, Agger, Sakho, Mignolet, Moses and Enrique are good players and the rest are average Joe premiership players or kids. That’s why we wont finish top four as we don’t have enough top quality IMO

[stmichael]

In answer to the question it's anywhere between 4th and 6th. Don't see us finishing anywhere lower than 6th as I can't see Everton repeating what they did last year under Martinez.

I'd liken us to Arsenal the most in terms of squad. Arsenal's first eleven can compete with anyone but they lack squad depth. If Giroud gets an injury then they're screwed upfront as they'll have to play Walcott there. They still don't have a proper defensive midfielder and I don't particularly rate Schezny in goal. Infact you could say if there's one position they didn't need to strengthen it was attacking midfield at yet they've gone out and brought Ozil.

Spurs are more of an unknown quantity as they've got so many new player to bed in. They were poor on Sunday but their squad is better than even United's imo.

[Fowler_E7]

On Coutinho, he's certainly had a bit of a dip but that was expected to happen at some stage. Becasue he was almost an unknown quantity when he came here defences didn't really know what to expect he tore the place up with his vision and movement. People need to remember that the kid is still only 20 years old though and still adapting.

Rodgers has already said that he'll move Coutinho in behind Sturridge and play Suarez from a wider are when he comes back from his ban which is a no-brainer for me. Coutinho has to play central where he can get on the ball more. The question then is who plays on the other side. Aspas is still learning the league, Sterling is still a kid. That only leaves Henderson really.

Moses will get the role, hes the best of what we have

[Stu the Red]

I'd prefere Aspas to Moses. Moses is just a brain dead runner. Aspas can play, link up and move.

[damjan193]

I really hate how people write us off after we've won against 3 teams which we struggled to beat last season, without even conceding a goal. I know that the squad doesn't look that good but show some faith. 

As for Sturridge, I don't think he's as selfish as people make him to be considering he's a striker. For him it's a reflex reaction. He's been taught to have eyes only for the goal and how to place the ball in it. It's really how most strikers are. He's definitely not as selfish as Suarez.

[Fowler_E7]

I'd prefere Aspas to Moses. Moses is just a brain dead runner. Aspas can play, link up and move.

Moses carries more goal threat though, Aspas hasnt even had a shot yet

[Stu the Red]

I really hate how people write us off after we've won against 3 teams which we struggled to beat last season, without even conceding a goal. I know that the squad doesn't look that good but show some faith. 

As for Sturridge, I don't think he's as selfish as people make him to be considering he's a striker. For him it's a reflex reaction. He's been taught to have eyes only for the goal and how to place the ball in it. It's really how most strikers are. He's definitely not as selfish as Suarez.

Some of us don't need the season to finish to tell you we aren't good enough mate, we can see it now by looking at what we have.

But yeah I get your point...

We're going to win the league... YAY!!! *clap clap clap clap* GO LIVERPOOL!!! The best team ever!!!