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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 115-1073096938 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:52 pm

Its coming towards the end of september, having scored only one goal so far from a set peice against relegation certainties Sunderland, we should be very worried, however, i'm not.

Why? Some people might ask.

Well firstly we have a manager who has won the European Cup in his first season and knows the game tactically inside out.

My second reason is i believe we have a squad that isn't very far away from being complete and has the ability to get results anywhere.

Thrid reason, we're becoming more consistent.

Fourth reason, the manager has more experience now.

Last season i was saying the priorities were a striker and a goalkeeper. More clean sheets + more goals = more points. Football is that simple.

Rafa clearly thought the same with the signing of Crouch and Reina. Reina appears to be what we've been lacking, i said we needed a goalkeeper as good as Cech, while i'm not sure if Reina is that good, i'm quite positive now he is a major improvement on Dudek both in terms of confidence and ability. His distribution is electric and something i always critisized Dudek for and he seems more commanding than Jerzy also, which is something we needed. His confidence, as i said last season has run through into our defence and made them an awful lot stronger. Alot of people where calling for a centre back last year to replace Sami Hyypia. Well i hope those people are eating there words. More on that later. To sum it up though i think we have finally found the goalkeeper that can help us reach that next and important level.

When we signed Crouch i wasn't overly impressed, not because i don't rate the lad, but because i thought he wasnt what we needed. Myself and just about every fan with an ounce of footballing knowledge wanted Michael Owen. A goalscorer who will score 20-30 goals a season and grab important away goals. For whatever reason that didn't happen. Rafa stated he wouldn't pay 16million for a player we sold for 8million and that was enough reasoning for me. Alot of people were quick to critisize Crouch, i however didn't. While he wasn't my choice i can see he's a good player and what he will bring to the side.

I can tell you now he won't score 20 goals every season, he's not a poacher or natural goalscorer and people who are on about crosses, Fowler and Owen would score more from crosses as they attack and read the flight of the ball better.
However Crouch will give us options. He has very good technical ability and his obvious height gives an option in that sense. As a lone front man though the ball has to be moved through midfield for him more than pumped long and i'm sure Rafa knows this. He can hold up the ball well and his link up play and passing is very intelligent. He can win ariel battles and will be a threat from set peices aswell. I'm pleased with his start and i think he has a good future at the club.

Defensively, we've taken massive steps in the right direction. Partially down to Reina and Partially down to the fact there wasn't alot wrong with the personel in the first place with the exception of last seasons regular left back. That issue has hopefully been solved though and the emergance of the tenacious Warnock has hopefully put an end to Traore's woefull career at Liverpool. Mind you, given managers attitudes these days that would rather have athletes over footballers it wouldn't suprise me if that wasn't the case.

Anyway, enough of the Traore bashing. Finnan has looked his usual and consistent self at right back. Nothing spectacular, but solid and going forward well. Carragher has took off this season where he left last, covering every blade of grass and making sure he sweeps up everything Sami misses, which to fair hasnt' been much so far as he's looked back to his best again with some truely commanding displays at the back. Warnocks defended superbly and not left Hyypia exposed (Traore style) and has contributed well going forwards aswell as backwards, he just lacks a bit of stamina, but that will come with games and in goal we've got someone who inspires confidence in the team. Defensively as a unit, we've looked reallly impressive.

The summer also saw the suprise arrival of Everton target Sissoko. Who? The next Patrick Vieira we're told, not this again, i remember the next Zidane :no , also, whats the point in signing a central midfielder when we already have Alonso and Gerrard? That left some people stumped, including myself. Anyway, Sissoko plays, a few games and bang. Makes a superb impression. He has potential and is definately a quality acquisision. As to weather he'll be as good as Vieira we don't know, probably not, not many are. But he has the class to become a key squad member at least, a good signing by Rafa. Once he learns to pass a ball with the correct weight, bulks up a little bit and learns its not ALWAYS great to dive in, we'll have a cracking player on our hands, the thing is, all of those attributes will come with experience.

We also signed Zenden on a free, won't say much on him, he's a decent player will give us a different option out wide and can do a job, all you can expect of a free transfer i supose so i won't complain. A few good points though, he's not as defensively minded as Riise, works harder than Kewell and also has good movement and decent game intelligence.

The midfield has looked good and controlling aswell so far. Against Boro if Gerrard had his shooting boots on he could have had at least a hatrick, thats not mentioning his heading hat :) we dominated the game against Sunderland as you would expect again it was down to poor finishing and against Spurs again i would say we had the territorial advantage but were just unable to create enough oppurtunities to put the ball away. We all know Gerrard and Alonso are class. Sissoko has immense promise, its just the wide area's that are of a slight concern.

In attack we've stuggled. Both as a unit and individually infront of goal. We don't have Robbie Fowler, so the chances we are creating aren't going to get us alot of goals. For me Cisse isn't cutting it and isn't the player we were led to believe we were signing. He isn't upto it, while he has a bit of potential he'll never be a great player. All this talk of him coming back from a broken leg give him time is tedious aswell. Warnocks broke his leg three times, its not an excuse for being a lazy a waster. To be fair, Cisse isn't as bad as i'm making out, but the gloryfying of a decent (no more) player makes me want him out the door coupled with his stinking on pitch attitude. Back the type of chances we're creating, this is why i wanted Owen. However, i believe there is a major way round this with the signing of the right match winning "wide players" (not "wingers who cross all the time").

Chelsea play differently to us, they prefere two support strikers and a centre forward and three centre mids, one that holds. Away from home, thats what Rafa seems to prefere, but at home though i believe he preferes two centre mids and three support strikers behind crouch. For me, Sinama-Pongolle and Luis Garcia are good enough to play at home as the central support striker depending on the game. However its wide right and left i believe we struggle.

The two players i want are simply Robben and Joaquin. Robben is totally unrealistic, i'd settle for Duff :;): but Joaquin on the other hand, while he may be expensive, maybe in exccess of 20-25million, i believe is a realistic target. I believe that Riise and Sinama and Luis Garcia are probably all good squad players and against most teams can do a job in the support roles, with a great player alongside them it would take the pressure off them aswell, but for the top teams you need something extra and i know for certain Joaquin would give us that. He would provide the correct width, pace and strength aswell as the ability to create something from nothing. For me he's very similar to Robben. We also have Kewell, if Harry does ever get back to his best, then that could be formidable as he's the sort of left sided player we lack, however, i'm not counting on it.

Ok, signing Joaquin is the stuff dreams are made of but i honestly believe he's the missing link. Imagine the performance against Man Utd the other day with Sinama-Pongolle in the centre and able to link up with Joaquin and Crouch as apose to Luis Garcia who is miserabley out of form giving the ball away left right and centre. We'd then have more pace in the middle with more direct player. We've seen Crouch and Pongolle link superbly against Betis and we also saw the damage Joaquin can do with his pace, strength, skill and intelligence. With him i don't think we'd have only scored one goal, in contrast i don't think he'd weaken the defensive side of things either.

Would i blow the entire budget on one player? That particular player. Damn right i would. We are in my eyes, 2 years away from the league. We need to replace Sami Hyypia (LONG TERM) with a someone who can be a better player. However the priority MUST be Joaquin and no-one else. I believe providing the tactics don't change we'll be really hard to beat now and into the forseeable future. The same tactics with a player like that in there would make all the difference. If we got lucky with Kewell aswell, we could soon be seeing fantasy stuff. Solid at the back full of ideas, pace, power and variation going forward.

Rafa, if you're reading please, please, please make Joaquin the priority. Don't make the same mistake Houllier did with Duff (IE not paying the inflating price). This is where Houllier slipped up, PLEASE don't make the same mistake. You know he's that good, i know he is, anyone who's seen him knows he is, he's said he'd come so do it and i'm sure he'll be worth his wait in gold/goals.

Think about the team that played against United...

Code: Select all
For the home games...
                         Crouch
   Riise           Sinama-Pongolle        Joaquin
                  Alonso       Gerrard
Warnock     Hyypia       Carragher      Finnan
                          Reina


For away games... Theres room for variation, but to give ideas. :)
                      Crouch
           Luis Garcia        Joaquin
          Gerrard                Alonso
                      Sissoko
Warnock  Hyypia        Carragher   Finnan
                       Reina




You know it makes sense... walk on!
Last edited by 115-1073096938 on Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paul C » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:53 pm

Wey Hey Stu's back :cool:
Last edited by Paul C on Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 109-1093441336 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:25 pm

you'd be surprised how indiffrent joaquins performances are for Betis week in week out, Stu the red.

From afar you dont notice the little things that can bother fans about about these flair players.

Take Luis Garcia for instance, in Spain his reputation has increased tenfold (is a regular Int. now) since he joined Liverpool.

They see him from afar now, scoring pearlers and the like but ask most liveprool fans what he's like week in week out and its the "..but he give the ball away alot." etc.

Its the same for Joaquin Sanchez, no doubt he is a talent but if he were to join liveprool poeple would soon wise to his indifrerent ways that from afar you dont notice.
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Postby Garymac » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:27 pm

Im with you Stu, id blow the budget on one player if nessesery, i was talkin to me mate in the match about Joaquin and he was saying look at what Man u do if they need a player, no arsein about, if they need a position filing they do it, they needed a center half, they got ferdinand ok 28 million was outrageous but still, its a posistion filled for at least 6 to 8 years, they needed a winger, bang Ronaldo signs, same with horseface and same with rooney, if they need a player they get them, ok we cant fill every position with a 20+ million pound player, but in terms of the right wing solution, it has to be done and we have to doo are upmost to bring Joaquin to Liverpool.
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Postby woof woof ! » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:32 pm

Good post Stu , nice to see such positive and valid observations . I agree with much of what you've said but I wouldn't however write Cisse off so quickly . Although he hasn't yet "done it " for us I still believe that given more starts and a show of belief/support from Rafa he could prove to be one of Houlliers better accquisitions .
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:36 pm

Garymac... the thing is mate, its got to be done. He's absoloutely awesome. He's got pace, strength, technique, intelligence. He's very similar to Robben who is also a match winner. Players like this are rare.

Robben and Joaquin for me are the best players in those positions in the world now. As good as Duff is, he's not in there class. I mean two players of Duffs ability would be fantastic and have the same effect maybe even more. But who can you sign?

He's the only one out there with that sort of class.

People mentioned Wright-Phillips and he's made the exact impression i was expecting him to. None. While he's decent he's not class.

It would be great to see this "injury" free Kewell back to his best. He's a similar level to Duff, that would be a great step in the right direction, but we all know that won't happen.

Joaquin has to be the one though.
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Postby 109-1093441336 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:37 pm

Sevillas are bad travellers too.

Its too easy to say "we should get him no matter what"

it doesn't work like that, sadly

they come from terribly hot conditions, are very family orientated people. Moving to the capital of spain is a big deal, going to liverprool would be outrageous.

Look at reyes, another talent that can't play, as he can, from october to March, when it sh1tty weather.

Cried when he was told he had to leave his home. Cried for another 3 months cause he missed his granma. He even cried at the Arsenal press conferance. Even admitted he wants to go home, and its likely he will, next may or the following.
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Postby wrighty (not mark!) » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:38 pm

Brilliant read, made me forget how boring my job is! Blow it all on Joaquin? We won't have to use all our money! But I agree that at a reasonable price. GET HIM! :p
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Postby Woollyback » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:39 pm

yeah would agree with pretty much everything there, too many doom & gloom merchants around these parts saying we're doomed cos we haven't won all our games. If we win both our games in hand on Chelsea then we're only 6pts behind them

btw welcome back Stu how was Walton?  :D
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Postby drummerphil » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:39 pm

good post Stu,cant argue with most of that
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:42 pm

Woof, you know i supported Houllier and i believed alot of what he done was superb. 12 of the 14 in the cup final were his players, but what i also believe he's made another expensive mistake on Cisse.

Don't give the "give him time and games" :censored:.

You can instantly see if a players class or not, Alonso, Sissoko etc etc. Goalkeepers need time to be judged, not bloody strikers, midfielders and defenders.

I remember when Sami first came over, first game against Wolves in a friendly you could instantly see he was class. Class shows mate, as does :censored:.

Cisse's quick no doubt, the rest of his game is distinctly average.

The excuses for him have run out. Sorry to dissapoint ya lynsey. But the lads cack.
Last edited by 115-1073096938 on Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bigmick » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:57 pm

One or two of us have lamented the absence of Stu and this type of post demonstrates why. I disagree with most of it but the reasoning and the quality of the argument mean it could well provoke 6 pages of replies. Welcome back fella, the forum feels better already.
The bits I disagree with? Stu has never rated Traore whereas I think the blokes not as bad as he looks if that doesn't sound too Irish. FWIW I also think he'll make a centre-half one day. Stu loves Sami and while I would agree that some of the criticism he recieves on here is OTT and that he has started the season very well, we still need a top centre-half as a priority in my view. For this reason I wouldn't blow 20 million or so on Joaquin, though Stu's knowledge of how good he is is greater than mine 'cos I've only seen the bloke play once.
Overall though mate top post.
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:06 pm

Mick, my arguement is simple mate. Why try and fix something that clearly isn't broke? Of that, there is no arguement.

We haven't conceed in the league and apart from a one chance from a corner which swung out of play (how wierd was that twice in one game) we haven't looked like conceeding either and if you look at the quality we've played against, Yakubu, Viduka, Downing, Ronaldo, Rooney, van Nistlerooy, Scholes, Defoe, Keane and Andy Gray :D that is definately something to brag about.

My point is, we know Sami's not getting younger, but i'd rather address the real issue at the moment which is NO right winger at all. I'd rather get it sorted and not miss out on the best of the lot and wait a year for a centre half than buy a centre half who's not going to improve our defensive record and a player who is not of the same class as Joaquin going forward.

Sami isn't what he was, i know it, you know it, the world knows it. But with the right quality around him, hes' still a class act and we have that now in Warnock, Carragher, Finnan, Reina, Alonso and Sissoko. What we need is a prosepct who can fill Sami's boots and a similar commanding figure with a similar style of play. Thats not easy to find.
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Postby banana » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:40 pm

Good post man. Of course I don't agree with everything, but still a good one. Welcome back.
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Postby ry_math » Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:44 pm

yeah man :cool:
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