Liverpool FC Forum

[andy_g]

I've noticed in the last few games that our usual scapegoats have been playing fairly well. Lucas, Babel, Dossena and Kuyt have turned in good performances in the league and europe and have even chipped in with goals. I've even noticed a much lower level of panic about Lucas starting against Chelsea tomorrow than I would have expected 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Kuyt is showing a decent first touch, showing quick feet and playing some intelligent passes around the box. Lucas is a growing, if nowehere near dominant, influence in midfield. Babel seems to have found a way to go past someone and how to pass the ball before being tackled. Dossena has become an unstoppable goal machine from left midfield.

So why is this? Are they beginning to improve their games in general? Is the manager working hard with them? Is the confidence running through the squad rubbing off on them? Do they just look better because we are winning?

Maybe its just that less people are grumbling about them as we haven't had to blame any dropped points on them.

My point is that the usual scapegoats, in my opinion at least, have begun to show that they are important members of the squad and have contributed tellingly to the recent run of good results. I'd love to see the crowd getting behind them in the next games to help to push them on even more. If the captain can get behind Lucas, for example, then the crowd at the games should do the same. The lad deserves it. Babel, Kuyt and the Doss do as well.

[GYBS]

Think they are all just relaxing and playing their natural game - that all comes down to the confidence within the squad through the recent results we have had - it also helps they have all had a hand in those results , it is good to see that they seem to all be stepping up to the mark .

[woof woof !]

Still see him (Lucas) getting brushed off the ball and decked far too easily. I fear that against an "athletic" mid field such as chelsea's we'll see more of the same. Hopefully I'm wrong and he stands up to them.

[tubby]

Babel has looked good since the Madrid game but I am yet to see him have a good performance seeing as we expect goals from him. Lucas has played in some big games and has come away not being slated on here so he must be doing something right.

I have been most impressed with Dossena though. He looks like a new man playing on the left wing and it's definatley obvious now he is a goal threat from that position.

[Judge]

lucas did/has look out of sorts much of the season, and yes he seems to have improved. dossena has played a more forward approach and as a result scored a couple of decent goals - its staggering andy and i agree with your sentiments.

has rafa employed a mind specialist, much like hoddle tried with england??

[stmichael]

It's a good post Andy and I was saying this to may mate the other day actually. Now I'd just like to see Babel start playing more consistently and improve in the way that both Dossena and Lucas have in recent weeks.

Dossena is still a liability in his defensive duties. He's clearly more attacking orientated but I'm not convinced he can hold onto the left wing spot and do a better job than Riera right now. And with Aurelio our first choice left back (when fit) followed by Insua, it's clear that Dossena is probably going to be a squad option rather than an automatic first team choice.

Lucas has started to hold his own and I'm pleased that he's no longer getting booed as much. Like Dossena, he's going to be a squad option rather than a first team regular but as we've seen with Alonso + Masch being unavailable at any given point, he'll still get his fair share of games.

This is why I still see Rafa going back in for Barry this summer, for his versatility more than anything else. Not sure where that would leave Lucas though or Dossena though, as Barry can play the central and left midfield roles well.

[Reg]

Babel has the most to prove these days, Lucas has upped his contribution greatly, Kuyt was never in question.

Babel has to toughen up and show some hunger - picture Rushie or Robbie at the same age ffs....

[Sabre]

It's a very interesting thread.

So why is this? Are they beginning to improve their games in general? Is the manager working hard with them? Is the confidence running through the squad rubbing off on them? Do they just look better because we are winning?

First off, I consider that there shouldn't be scapegoats, and for what I have seen, there will be always one. I think this is regardless the manager, there will always be scapegoats, Traores, Zendens, Kuyts, Lucas...

As scapegoats they are, they'll receive unfair criticism. Their only sin is not being as good as some of our other players. I'd take Lucas as an example of this.

On your question, I think that Rafa, and any manager, try to work hard always, and so do our scapegoats. So if they're receiving less stick now, it's probably because of the results. Pretty much like the scapegoat of the bench, Rafa. But as soon as things go wrong, we'll look for culprits, and the usual scapegoats will be given stick.

I don't like to have scapegoats but that's something that happen everywhere. If someone has to be a scapegoat, then that one should be the ones that do not try hard enough. A case of this would be Pennant. Lucas? he has the hard job of substituting the likes of Alonso and Mascherano, and that's difficult. But Pennant, who doesn't fight hard enough to pose a problem for Rafa apparently, who even rejected offers to go somewhere else, doesn't get as much stick. Unfair.

My point is that the usual scapegoats, in my opinion at least, have begun to show that they are important members of the squad and have contributed tellingly to the recent run of good results. I'd love to see the crowd getting behind them in the next games to help to push them on even more. If the captain can get behind Lucas, for example, then the crowd at the games should do the same. The lad deserves it. Babel, Kuyt and the Doss do as well.

Your conclussion is a very good shout.

[Owzat]

People will usually only pick on "scapegoats" when they have poor games, they tend to keep silent if say Kuyt scores or sets up a winner, Lucas has a good game etc. I doubt people's opinions of Kuyt and Lucas have changed that much, or of Babel, and certainly don't believe a few weeks worth of good displays will be regarded as anything but that. People simply don't change their opinions that quickly, I bet if you asked who we should sell that Babel, Dossena and Lucas would still be targets.

[andy_g]

It's a good post Andy and I was saying this to may mate the other day actually. Now I'd just like to see Babel start playing more consistently and improve in the way that both Dossena and Lucas have in recent weeks.

Dossena is still a liability in his defensive duties. He's clearly more attacking orientated but I'm not convinced he can hold onto the left wing spot and do a better job than Riera right now. And with Aurelio our first choice left back (when fit) followed by Insua, it's clear that Dossena is probably going to be a squad option rather than an automatic first team choice.

Lucas has started to hold his own and I'm pleased that he's no longer getting booed as much. Like Dossena, he's going to be a squad option rather than a first team regular but as we've seen with Alonso + Masch being unavailable at any given point, he'll still get his fair share of games.

This is why I still see Rafa going back in for Barry this summer, for his versatility more than anything else. Not sure where that would leave Lucas though or Dossena though, as Barry can play the central and left midfield roles well.

i'm thinking of the squad in general aswell. i think kuyt is the only one that can make a genuine claim to the starting 11 most games - partly because he does anyway and partly because i think he is starting to make the position his own. despite that i'm loving seeing benny in form - maybe that is what is pushing kuyt on even more, though i think the guy is probably able to motivate himself enough to give 100% every game. i'm happy to see kuyt and benny sharing the wide right position in a similar way that riera and babel were for much of the early part of the season. i think that bringing on fresh wide players, for instance babel and benny after the hour mark is a good way to keep asking questions of tiring defences.

dossena and lucas are further away from getting regular starts unless other players are injured. they definitely deserve their places in the squad on recent showings though - and i'd even go as far to say that if they keep up this level i'll be happy enough to see what they can achieve in the squad next season.

[tubby]

Maybe take Doss of that list but Lucas and Babel definatley. Lucas has a simple game about him, he plays short passes and doesn't complicate things. So if he has a good game he doesn't really stand out too much. Babel on the other hand has been overall poor. Ok he has had a few decent games of late but his basic skills are still shabby at times. Giving the ball away, running into people.

If we go on to win the league and/or the European Cup would people argue to keep him here another year?

[GYBS]

That last bit is spot on Owzat - Kuyt is prime example - people will get on his back the minute he does something wrong with the normal he is sh ite etc etc but will never give the guy credit when he does well .

[stmichael]

i think kuyt is the only one that can make a genuine claim to the starting 11 most games - partly because he does anyway and partly because i think he is starting to make the position his own. despite that i'm loving seeing benny in form - maybe that is what is pushing kuyt on even more, though i think the guy is probably able to motivate himself enough to give 100% every game. i'm happy to see kuyt and benny sharing the wide right position in a similar way that riera and babel were for much of the early part of the season.

The problem with the Kuyt haters (they know who they are) is that they only look at what he does wrong instead of what he does well. Yes he doesn't excite the way Aaron Lennon does for example does but then Aaron can't cross and doesn't score as many goals as Kuyt.

How are these players who play for teams below us in the league more effective than Kuyt? He's the fourth highest midfield scorer in the Premiership. He's also been involved in some damn intelligent play (example, Torres's goals against Everton) and was involved in most of our important goals this season. He was one of the most hated figure last season and he won almost everyone over since then.

[tubby]

It would be nice to see Ryan Babel make that sort of turn around for us.

[andy_g]

the reason i put up this thread was because i've just been watching all the highlights videos from the games against newcastle (away), madrid, villa, the mancs and fulham. each of the scapegoats has some really good moments in each of those games, and more in the more recent ones - the kind of things that bad players just don't do and definite signs of improvement on all fronts. i know that i am concentrating on the good side of their games but maybe it is the correct time to do that.

i'd love to type more but i just dropped a whole chocolate biscuit in my tea and scolded my typing fingers trying to get it out.