Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I find it hard to sympathise with Rafa given his spending last summer (c. £39m) on a handful of players of whom none really excelled and now £37.5m on two players, an overpriced RB and a crocked CM

So Owzat do you still think Johnson is overpriced? A club like LFC's stature deserves quality players and nowadays quality players cost quality money... I don't criticize Benitez for paying that much money for Johnson and Aquilani but I do agree that his other signings the other year was left wanting... especially Babel and Lucas and Degen and Dossena. That was a bad year for Rafa in the transfer market. But he did also bring in Benayoun and Reira and both have been a success. Rafa 'gambled' on Torres when he was still a promising stiker but not a world class one when he paid 20 million for him. Now everyone must agree that that was a shrewd business. A club like Liverpool deserves players like Torres and Johnson but I'm afraid for those kinda players you need to pay top dollar and when you're paying that much it is always a gamble...

'Rafa gambled on Torres'.... you must be kidding he was a nailed on certainty to be a legend.... just ask any Athletico fan and he was established well enough in his national side too and he cost nearer £25m, apart from that I agree with most of your other points but, I wouldn't bracket Johnson in the same class as Torres but he (Johnson) is decent enough.

Rafa did 'gamble' on Torres. 20.6 million pounds, club record transfer, on a striker who had a decent  but not prolific scoring record. A player who we could never tell whether he will be a success or not in the Premier League. Not just any foreign league, a league that is notorious for its competitiveness and physicality where the likes of Veron and Morientes and Schevchenko have failed to live up to their reputations, reputations which were far ahead of Fernando Torres' when they came to the Premier League.

And you do know what it means when you write a word with apostrophes don't you?

Well 'gamble' or not (and every transfer carries an element of gamble) it seems only fair to point out that it was a brilliant piece of business. For sure there have been dodgy buys, some may argue too many, but there have been some brilliant ones as well, and Torres is firmly in the latter category.

[Highland Red]

That's always been part of Rafa's buying 'policy'. For every gem there are one or two squad fillers.

[maguskwt]

Well 'gamble' or not (and every transfer carries an element of gamble) it seems only fair to point out that it was a brilliant piece of business. For sure there have been dodgy buys, some may argue too many, but there have been some brilliant ones as well, and Torres is firmly in the latter category.

Not disagreeing with that... but when we bought him he was never a 'nailed on certainty to be a legend'...

[Owzat]

Do I still think Johnson is overpriced? Yes, I do. And TWO games of a season aren't going to change my view, I'M not that fickle and easily impressed. Maybe I'm just one of a few who don't think silly money splashed all over the shop justifies a price tag, comparing Johnson with others proves nada as Johnson isn't Torres, Aquilani etc and plays an entirely different role so expectations for a player are higher for one who isn't there to specifically score goals etc.

£17.5m is way too much for a full-back, maybe about right for the very best full-back in the world (or top 3-5), but is looking world class against STOKE proof he is in that bracket?!?!? Instead of comparing Johnson's price with Torres, I give you a comparison with :

Sagna £6m
Evra £4m
Arbeloa £2.6m
Clichy - nothing or not a lot
Eboue £1m
Warnock £1.5m

Point being Johnson is in the price bracket with what Chelsea throw at full-backs, maybe if he has a game like he did against Stoke every other game for the rest of the season I'll concede he was overpriced but maybe worth £12m-£15m

[bigmick]

Well 'gamble' or not (and every transfer carries an element of gamble) it seems only fair to point out that it was a brilliant piece of business. For sure there have been dodgy buys, some may argue too many, but there have been some brilliant ones as well, and Torres is firmly in the latter category.

Not disagreeing with that... but when we bought him he was never a 'nailed on certainty to be a legend'...

No definately not I agree. there was much doubt about him, everyone had looked but not many were totally convinced. Even some members of this forum who know their football were far from convinced. Looks like I misunderstood your point, sorry fella.

[Owzat]

That's always been part of Rafa's buying 'policy'. For every gem there are one or two squad fillers.

I think we don't have that many signed gems, certainly not definite gems. Carra and Gerrard weren't bought, Rafa didn't sign Sami, can't say Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Johnson and Aquilani are gems (too early in some/most cases) so that leaves Torres, Reina, Mascherano and maybe one or both of Benayoun and Kuyt

Maybe a better way of putting it, possibly fairer, is for every gem there has been a (relative) flop. We certainly don't have a team packed with world class players

[Owzat]

Well 'gamble' or not (and every transfer carries an element of gamble) it seems only fair to point out that it was a brilliant piece of business. For sure there have been dodgy buys, some may argue too many, but there have been some brilliant ones as well, and Torres is firmly in the latter category.

Not disagreeing with that... but when we bought him he was never a 'nailed on certainty to be a legend'...

No definately not I agree. there was much doubt about him, everyone had looked but not many were totally convinced. Even some members of this forum who know their football were far from convinced. Looks like I misunderstood your point, sorry fella.

Noone is a nailed on certainty to succeed let alone be a legend, but there were a lot less reservations over Torres regarding fee, age, likelihood to be a mistake etc than say Keane who was not a nailed on certainty to be a flop.

Were the mancs interested in signing Keane? Not ever as far as I am aware, but reputedly Torres told them he wasn't interested

[devaney]

Do I still think Johnson is overpriced? Yes, I do. And TWO games of a season aren't going to change my view, I'M not that fickle and easily impressed. Maybe I'm just one of a few who don't think silly money splashed all over the shop justifies a price tag, comparing Johnson with others proves nada as Johnson isn't Torres, Aquilani etc and plays an entirely different role so expectations for a player are higher for one who isn't there to specifically score goals etc.

£17.5m is way too much for a full-back, maybe about right for the very best full-back in the world (or top 3-5), but is looking world class against STOKE proof he is in that bracket?!?!? Instead of comparing Johnson's price with Torres, I give you a comparison with :

Sagna £6m
Evra £4m
Arbeloa £2.6m
Clichy - nothing or not a lot
Eboue £1m
Warnock £1.5m

Point being Johnson is in the price bracket with what Chelsea throw at full-backs, maybe if he has a game like he did against Stoke every other game for the rest of the season I'll concede he was overpriced but maybe worth £12m-£15m

Unlike most of the players you mention, well to be honest virtually all of them, Johnson is highly articulate and extremely marketable and that certainly had something to do with the price. That is not something you get with many fullbacks. It is normally midfield players and forwards that grab the limelight. RM didn't just pay £80m for Ronaldo for his playing ability. Look what they made out of Beckham's marketability.

[devaney]

That's always been part of Rafa's buying 'policy'. For every gem there are one or two squad fillers.

I think we don't have that many signed gems, certainly not definite gems. Carra and Gerrard weren't bought, Rafa didn't sign Sami, can't say Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Johnson and Aquilani are gems (too early in some/most cases) so that leaves Torres, Reina, Mascherano and maybe one or both of Benayoun and Kuyt

Maybe a better way of putting it, possibly fairer, is for every gem there has been a (relative) flop. We certainly don't have a team packed with world class players

Owzat - You say in a previous quote that you are not fickle and now you mention both Benny and Kuyty as possible Rafa gems! Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that was your view in the first half of last season. Not trying to be a smart a.ss here but they are a couple of players who have proved a lot of people wrong. Who knows Lucas maybe next? Not sure about Babel but I seriously think he is more of a germ than a gem! You didn't mention Alonso as a Rafa gem - £20m plus profit! Insua also has the potential to show a massive profit.

[loopyliverpool]

I find it hard to sympathise with Rafa given his spending last summer (c. £39m) on a handful of players of whom none really excelled and now £37.5m on two players, an overpriced RB and a crocked CM

So Owzat do you still think Johnson is overpriced? A club like LFC's stature deserves quality players and nowadays quality players cost quality money... I don't criticize Benitez for paying that much money for Johnson and Aquilani but I do agree that his other signings the other year was left wanting... especially Babel and Lucas and Degen and Dossena. That was a bad year for Rafa in the transfer market. But he did also bring in Benayoun and Reira and both have been a success. Rafa 'gambled' on Torres when he was still a promising stiker but not a world class one when he paid 20 million for him. Now everyone must agree that that was a shrewd business. A club like Liverpool deserves players like Torres and Johnson but I'm afraid for those kinda players you need to pay top dollar and when you're paying that much it is always a gamble...

'Rafa gambled on Torres'.... you must be kidding he was a nailed on certainty to be a legend.... just ask any Athletico fan and he was established well enough in his national side too and he cost nearer £25m, apart from that I agree with most of your other points but, I wouldn't bracket Johnson in the same class as Torres but he (Johnson) is decent enough.

Rafa did 'gamble' on Torres. 20.6 million pounds, club record transfer, on a striker who had a decent  but not prolific scoring record. A player who we could never tell whether he will be a success or not in the Premier League. Not just any foreign league, a league that is notorious for its competitiveness and physicality where the likes of Veron and Morientes and Schevchenko have failed to live up to their reputations, reputations which were far ahead of Fernando Torres' when they came to the Premier League.

And you do know what it means when you write a word with apostrophes don't you?

Yes! You don't need one after your final use of Torres' name. An apostrophe is used when words are missed out and contracted and also to show ownership, or indeed to show someone being quoted.
Anyway, having looked up on Torres' fee ... by all accounts it was in the region £26m. As regarding his record he scored 75 goals in 174 La Liga games. He had established himself as an international scoring 3 in the 2006 World Cup. Perhaps 'nailed on certainty to be a legend' was a phrase I shouldn't have used but, I was certainly more optomistic about him than any other player we have bought since....

[devaney]

"Rafa rubbishes Anfield exit rumours"

Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez has dismissed reports suggesting he was about to quit his job by insisting he is "100% committed to the club".


GettyImages

Rafa Benitez: Quit rumours are nonsense

There was speculation surrounding the future of the Spaniard following Liverpool's 2-1 defeat to Tottenham Hotspur on the opening day of their Premier League season but Benitez's team bounced back with a 4-0 win against Stoke City on Wednesday.

Speaking after the match, Benitez said: "I remain 100 per cent committed to the club, the fans and players."

Reports had suggested that Benitez had once again fallen out with the Anfield board over the lack of transfer funds available to him and had threatened to walk out. But Liverpool's managing director Christian Purslow insists that is not true.

"It's 1000 per cent rubbish," Purslow told The Sun. "I had dinner with Rafa and the fact I had not heard the rumours should tell you everything about how true they are."

Bookmakers had suspended betting on Benitez's future prior to Wednesday night's victory over Stoke.

**********************************************

You know what I wouldn't have blamed him if he really did leave under these circumstances. I just find it quite amazing how he's enduring these difficulties and say he's 100% committed when in Valencia under similar difficulties he just quit. It really does seem like he's adamant on bringing success to LFC. Hopefully he will achieve it and bring back the premier league trophy.

Yeah it's got to be hard life trying to get by on £3million a year, poor man! 

Seriously why dont you fuck off?

I dont care if I get a warning because you a just one pathetic tw@t.

Ciggy you want us to take you seriously over getiing rid of G & H and you come out with that garbage! BACK OFF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[loopyliverpool]

I find it hard to sympathise with Rafa given his spending last summer (c. £39m) on a handful of players of whom none really excelled and now £37.5m on two players, an overpriced RB and a crocked CM

So Owzat do you still think Johnson is overpriced? A club like LFC's stature deserves quality players and nowadays quality players cost quality money... I don't criticize Benitez for paying that much money for Johnson and Aquilani but I do agree that his other signings the other year was left wanting... especially Babel and Lucas and Degen and Dossena. That was a bad year for Rafa in the transfer market. But he did also bring in Benayoun and Reira and both have been a success. Rafa 'gambled' on Torres when he was still a promising stiker but not a world class one when he paid 20 million for him. Now everyone must agree that that was a shrewd business. A club like Liverpool deserves players like Torres and Johnson but I'm afraid for those kinda players you need to pay top dollar and when you're paying that much it is always a gamble...

'Rafa gambled on Torres'.... you must be kidding he was a nailed on certainty to be a legend.... just ask any Athletico fan and he was established well enough in his national side too and he cost nearer £25m, apart from that I agree with most of your other points but, I wouldn't bracket Johnson in the same class as Torres but he (Johnson) is decent enough.

Rafa did 'gamble' on Torres. 20.6 million pounds, club record transfer, on a striker who had a decent  but not prolific scoring record. A player who we could never tell whether he will be a success or not in the Premier League. Not just any foreign league, a league that is notorious for its competitiveness and physicality where the likes of Veron and Morientes and Schevchenko have failed to live up to their reputations, reputations which were far ahead of Fernando Torres' when they came to the Premier League.

And you do know what it means when you write a word with apostrophes don't you?

Yes! You don't need one after your final use of Torres' name. An apostrophe is used when words are missed out and contracted and also to show ownership, or indeed to show someone being quoted.
Anyway, having looked up on Torres' fee ... by all accounts it was in the region £26m. As regarding his record he scored 75 goals in 174 La Liga games. He had established himself as an international scoring 3 in the 2006 World Cup. Perhaps 'nailed on certainty to be a legend' was a phrase I shouldn't have used but, I was certainly more optomistic about him than any other player we have bought since....

In trying to find the definitive price we paid for Torres, Wikipedia (who use the BBC as a source) say we paid £20.6m for him. Other sources had mentioned £26m. Wikipedia doesn't mention if there are or are not any add-ons. Anyway, my point is I was wrong and you were indeed right.
(Oh, and when I said that apostrohes can be used when quoting people they obviously take on the name of 'quotation marks' but, for all intents and purposes they are the same shape as an apostrophe)

[Sabre]

'Rafa gambled on Torres'.... you must be kidding he was a nailed on certainty to be a legend.... just ask any Athletico fan and he was established well enough in his national side too and he cost nearer £25m, apart from that I agree with most of your other points but, I wouldn't bracket Johnson in the same class as Torres but he (Johnson) is decent enough.

The Atletico fans had high steem towards Torres, among other things because Torres became the hero they needed when they were relegated. It had been a while from a youth system lad came from their ranks and he was always especial for them. Torres in Spain was a very good player, but some levels below the top strikers, in that sense the money we paid for him was a gamble.

If you asked back then not an atletico fan, but a neutral fan (a fan which is not Atletico nor Real Madrid), out of 10, 9 would have doubts. I thought he was a good player, but I thought he wouldn't make it here, especially because of his attitude, prone to be sat down moaning and not involved. To my surprise and joy, he adapted better than anyone.

You can't certainly talk about him being a "sure signing", and not only by fans, also the papers. Rafa got it right, and 85% of Spanish football fans got it wrong. Torres hadn't secured a place in the spanish squad neither.

[loopyliverpool]

He had an excellent scoring record in a side that by all accounts was not that great. He had secured himself in the national squad too (Germany 2006). The fans at Athletico hero worshipped him. I think when you buy the first choice striker from one of the top national teams you are more certain than not to have a very good player on your hands. The fact that other top teams didn't go for him is their loss. I just don't see how people can see it as a gamble, unless of course you see all transfers as a gamble. Now, buying Aquilani, a player prone to injury was a gamble.

[Sabre]

Well it was a gamble in the sense that we paid the highest fee for him of the history of the club, and we paid that for a player whose record of goals was this

2000/01*1
2001/02* 7
2002/03 14
2003/04 23
2004/05 20
2005/06  13
2006/07  15

The goals he scored in 2003-2005 were good numbers, but the rest of them especially the last two seasons weren't that great considering he took all the penalties. Considering that we needed a world class striker and that we had penalty takers at the club, it was a big money for me a player  only two seasons  had real good numbers.

His numbers and his play were those of a good-very good striker, but I was terrified that he was the choice of Liverpool back then, because it was a big money, and because we came from other failures seeking the striker we needed (Morientes, Cisse who was here, Kuyt). I didn't expect him being what he has been: a world class striker and exactly what we needed.

I'm the first to acknowledge my failure to predict this massive success, but let's be honest about something, very few in Spain thought that he would be a massive success, and I don't remember English fans around here especially sure about him being a total success.

Then he came, and right from the first day he started playing incredibly well. Good, but it wasn't an obvious choice as you suggest.

P.S. Last season Torres scored 16 goals, but playing 17 games. In the last seasons before coming here, he played almost everything, more than 34 games in the season, yet he only got 15 and 13. Last season Torres was pretty good aswell, and if he wasn't better it was because he saw his form cut by injuries.