The legacy of benitez - Defense and prosecution

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Emerald Red » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:03 am

Opinion on Rafa's credentials are becoming increasingly polarised with each fixture that passes and it's really becoming apparant that it is dividing our fan base to the same manner with which it did during Gerard Houllier's final season here. Those who debate on both sides of the argument really need to stop being so esoteric. There are criticisms of Rafa which are valid and it is important that any individual at the club; players, coaching staff, the manager, the board et cetera are not beyond reproach. It's a particular kind of argument on this forum, probably because the popularity of the forum means that there is a huge variety of supporters here, not just those that go to the game or live local or have an encyclopedic knowledge of the game.

It really becomes tiresome to hear criticisms of the manager evoke the kind of responses that they do on this forum, nearly as tiresome as some of the ill-thought criticisms that Rafa is getting here. It descends to an almost childish debate at times. It's important that constructed criticisms of Rafa are not dismissed implicitly as coming from 'whoppers' or 'day-tripper's' and the like, I know many match-going fans who feel his time is up.

For me, I think Rafa has made many mistakes, this season and during his entire time here. But to focus only on his errors is an absurd injustice to a manager who has reconstructed a club that was directionless and a fading force into a club that has genuinely challenged for major honours in each season that he has been here (Champions League Final in 2005 & 2007, Semi-Finalists in 2008, the FA Cup in 2006 and now a title challenge in 2008-9.) The squad he inherited was poor, the team was poor and lacked quality. The academy wasn't producing new talent and the whole club practically needed reconstructing. What he did in his first season was almost miraculous. To see Igor Biscan confidently rampaging through the Bayer Leverkusen midfield and playing a delightful throughball for Luis Garcia to finish was almost miraculous.

He has made bad decisions in the transfer market at times (though not as many as his detractors would have you believe) and some of his tactical decisions in some games can be baffling. His scatter-gun approach to developing young players and his dealings with the press are also areas where I feel he has handled things badly. This season however, the criticisms he has been accused of seems to have been intensified. I think it's probably because of Manchester United's success last season.

For so long, our supporters held our records dear as we clung on to them out of desparation as we watched United win title after title in the nineties, safe in the knowledge that it wasn't possible for them to reach our title haul any time soon. It became our comfort blanket ... but now we're in danger of losing even that and that's why so many have become almost irrational in our desperation to keep it. Thus, everything that everybody is doing is being scrutinised microscopically, and Rafa being the man in charge he is the man in the firing line.

Liverpool Football Club will go on without Rafa, just as it went on without Paisley, Fagan, Shankly and Dalglish. But to underestimate the job he has done in transforming the club in the four-and-a-half years he has been here would be folly. We finished the 2003-4 season, our last under Houllier, thirty points behind the leaders, three more points than the difference between ourselves and the relegation zone that season. Our two most important players were on the verge of quitting, our head coach had just quit, there was little in the squad that signified we would be capable of challenging for anything any time soon and we did not have the funds to compete in the transfer market with the main challengers, and neither did we have the infostructure to build on.

The squad he inherited was:

GK: Dudek, Kirkland, Luzi. DEF: Finnan, Carragher, Henchoz, Hyypia, Traore, Riise. MID: Diouf, Smicer, Murphy, Diao, Gerrard, Biscan, Hamann, Cheyrou, Welsh, Kewell. ATT: Owen, Heskey, Baros, Le Tallec, Sinama-Pongolle.

Gerrard wanted out, Owen wanted out. The French duo of Le Tallec and Sinama-Pongolle had shown little to live up to their hype, Kewell and Finnan both failed to impress in their first seasons and Carragher had a poor season. The concensus was that Hyypia and Henchoz were past their best and a liability, that Hamann was too immobile, Dudek and Baros too inconsistent and the rest were not good enough. In the hands of the wrong manager, inheriting this squad could have been disastrous.

Gerrard stayed, Owen went at a fraction of his value. Rafa revitalised much of the squad; Finnan became one of the most consistent full-backs in Europe for the next few seasons, Carragher established himself as a world class central defender and even some of the 'dead wood' in that squad, the likes of Smicer, Biscan, Traore and Riise showed great improvement. Rafa has spent a lot of money, and he has made mistakes of course in spending that money, but then so has every other manager. When you're playing catch-up, you have to take chances in the transfer market. Our prize asset was leaving for a pittance, and it was important we got decisions right in the transfer at that crucial time for the club. In that first summer, Rafa spent that budget by buying Xabi Alonso for £10.5m and Luis Garcia for £6m. Two players who were essential for our success the following seasons.

Of course there are managers who could come in if Rafa did leave and do a good job, but there is no one who could have done the job he has done in the circumstances, save perhaps Jose Mourinho or Fabio Capello. It is not at all constructive to merely defend your own side of the argument verbatim. There are valid criticisms of Rafa, and if these are offered, it doesn't mean that the person offering them is necessarily wanting to sack him. Conversely, just because some of his actions or decisions can frustrate at times, it does not mean that the only recourse is his dismissal. We need to defer our reactions and our frustrations, and instead analyse his perforemance with a much greater sense of balance, otherwise our fanbase will become even more fractured than it is already.


Shamelessly ripped from RAWK from zimmie'5555.

Pick the bones out of that post if you must. Regardless of Rafa's flaws and shortcomings, he's also done a little bit of good for our wee club, I think.
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Postby boodiddy1 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:28 am

a good post and one that is very interestig to read. 

Imo, i just feel that rafa has lost the direction with where he wants to take the club. No matter what we think about the validity of board room unrest has on the players, the facts are that it slowly grinds the club down. Rafa has felt the strain and this passes down to the players.

Rafa's main problem is that he is far too negative a coach for this club. The glass is half empty with him. In the prem, you must go for the jugular of the smaller teams. We are far too rigid and regimented. We have never embraced a creative player in his time here. In that, i mean a dribbler, a european number 10. Luis Garcia was the closest we got to one.

His record in europe stands up to the best around, thats because of our set up.

He is far too stubborn, and now is getting to the point were his post match interviews sound the same as houlliers in his final year.

The style of play isn't enjoyable to watch. IMO i'd like to move in another direction, because i'm with redknapp in the belief that we will never win the prem with rafa in charge.

However, i just don't feel that any manager can succeed at this club until the board room is sorted out. We have become a farce.

Could any of you see mourinho at this club with the current boardroom situation? (ask benfica fans and they'll give you the answer)
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Postby Thewaykokid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:34 am

boodiddy1 wrote:a good post and one that is very interestig to read. 

Imo, i just feel that rafa has lost the direction with where he wants to take the club. No matter what we think about the validity of board room unrest has on the players, the facts are that it slowly grinds the club down. Rafa has felt the strain and this passes down to the players.

Rafa's main problem is that he is far too negative a coach for this club. The glass is half empty with him. In the prem, you must go for the jugular of the smaller teams. We are far too rigid and regimented. We have never embraced a creative player in his time here. In that, i mean a dribbler, a european number 10. Luis Garcia was the closest we got to one.

His record in europe stands up to the best around, thats because of our set up.

He is far too stubborn, and now is getting to the point were his post match interviews sound the same as houlliers in his final year.

The style of play isn't enjoyable to watch. IMO i'd like to move in another direction, because i'm with redknapp in the belief that we will never win the prem with rafa in charge.

However, i just don't feel that any manager can succeed at this club until the board room is sorted out. We have become a farce.

Could any of you see mourinho at this club with the current boardroom situation? (ask benfica fans and they'll give you the answer)

go for the jugular...........i like it  :laugh:
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Postby bigmick » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:18 am

The team has improved, there's no question about that. During the time that Rafa has been manager though, not only has he spent 150 million quid +, he has also had the good fortune to have Steven Gerrard in his team for free throughout his tenure. You could say the same but to slightly lesser extent for Jamie Carragher, and ditto Sami Hyppia. You could argue that at the beginning of last season, three years into his reign our best back four had been left for him (Finnan, Carragher, Hyppia and Riise), our best player had been left for him (Gerrard) and that the job ought to have been a question of filling in the spaces.

That Gerrard in particular has improved out of all recognition is beyond dispute, and it really is a frightening prospect to consider where we might be if he hadn't already been here when Rafa arrived. I don't think for instance that Martin O Neil was left players of the calibre of Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher when he replaced David O leary, nor has he spent 150 million quid, but they sit one point behind us as of now. You could argue that over the remainder of the season we'll pull clear of them, but you could equally argue that over the remainder of the season the usual suspects will pull clear of us as well. I'm fairly sure though that if Steven Gerrard played for Aston Villa, they would have an outside chance of winning the Premiership and would certainly finish above us. So we've improved, but how much has it cost, how fast has it happened and how much of it is actually down to the manager anyway is the question.

We've improved the first team this season when everyone is fit to the extent of replacing Ryan Babel with Albert Riera. Doing so cost us 40 million quid. You could argue as I'm sure someone will, that we didn't spend that much as we sold Riise and Crouch. Lets include them in the equation then and not just talk about the team. Is the squad stronger with Dossena for Riise, and Keane for Crouch? And is the improvement of Riera from Babel worthy of 25 million quid of spend? Is it the managers job to realise that selling Alonso would have been a bad idea? I advocated the move myself, but as I'm always told I know feck all and I'm not at Melwood. Rafa is, and he was trying to flog Xabi off to anyone who was interested.

So no, for me the improvement isn't drastic enough, is too expensive and has stalled. The legacy is that we have a collection of good players who don't know how to win lots of football matches consecutively. If Rafa goes, you want somebody who will come in and change the culture. You want a winner, someone who will instill belief in the players. Someone who the minute he walks in the door will look the players in the eye and tell them that he is going all out for the Premiership. He will tell Gerrard he is the best player in the World, he will tell everyone Gerrard is the best player in the World. He would pull Keane aside and tell him to forget what has gone, he's a great little player. He would tell Torrres that he's the best striker in the World, Xabi that he always wanted to manage him. He would tell the players that he knows what it takes to win the Premiership, because he's done it before. He knows what it takes to go head to head with Ferguson and come out on top.

He'd be hungry too. Because despite having fantastic success in the past with clubs which are not the richest, he one managed a club that was the richest. Because he won things there, I think he believes people don't give him the respect for his achievements elsewhere (not in England anyway). I think he'd love to win the Premiership with a club which isn't the richest, just to prove to everyone what a great manager he is.

If Rafa isn't the manager next season, for me there is only one candidate to replace him.
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Postby The_Rock » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:35 am

bigmick wrote:If Rafa isn't the manager next season, for me there is only one candidate to replace him.

Come on.....say the name. I know i'm not the only one who wants him as our manager.....  :p
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:15 am

maureen would walk over broken glass to manage us
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Postby Reg » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:10 pm

the fact of the matter is:  Martin O´Neill is a better premiership manager than Benitez.
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Postby tubby » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:15 pm

peewee wrote:maureen would walk over broken glass to manage us

Get him i say.

As for Rafa. Istanbul was one of the best nights of my life, probably the best in my life and I adore Rafa for that but I think when its getting to the point where opinions are actually split on if he should even be here then it is time for him to go. I don't want him to leave with everyone hating him so he should maybe give it another year and then go. Unless we could get someone like Hiddink or Mourinho in the summer. Those are the only 2 managers I would take over him.
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Postby Reg » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:30 pm

Maureen without cash is like Red Rum without a jockey
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Postby THEBARON » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:57 pm

The subject of getting rid of Benitez is a touchy one.
On one hand there are the memories of Istanbul and us being a feared force in Europe again , the 2006 Cup run and the emergence of Gerrard as a world classs player.
On the other hand there are embarassing cup exits ( Burnley , Arsenal ) , rotation , a mixed record in the transfer market, a number of rants that have caused controversy , indifferent attitudes to certain players ( whom he has bought ) and obvious favouritism to certain players. I might throw in a too cautious attitude and predictable substitutions.
But if you do decide on replacing him ( and I am undecided ) then you must note the following;
1 ) who will do a better job ?
2 ) whoever he is will not have a substantial transfer kitty
3 ) whoever he is will have to contend with the ongoing power struggle and takeover rumours.
In the short term lets give him our full support.
We seem to have gone off the rails in a short space of time. At Xmas we were top of the league , yes we had drawn too many games but the result and performance at Newcastle suggested we were ready for the challenge thrown to us.
Since Newcastle we have had the Stevie G incident , Rafa's rant at Ferguson , failed takeover attempts and some pretty poor performances and results.
Tis a shame as I don't think we will have a better chance of winning the League in the near future - which would also have had the benefit of us staying ahead of the mancs in terms of total titles.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:58 pm

Reg wrote:the fact of the matter is:  Martin O´Neill is a better premiership manager than Benitez.

Was Phil Brown as well two months ago ?

Fickle.
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Postby THEBARON » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:06 pm

Is that the Martin O'Neill who has just signed Heskey ?
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Postby tubby » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:08 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Reg wrote:the fact of the matter is:  Martin O´Neill is a better premiership manager than Benitez.

Was Phil Brown as well two months ago ?

Fickle.

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Postby Reg » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:22 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Reg wrote:the fact of the matter is:  Martin O´Neill is a better premiership manager than Benitez.

Was Phil Brown as well two months ago ?

Fickle.

I´m not fickle Leon, MON took over at Villa with little funds and has slowly but surely built a strong team. No fuss, no constant press speculation and fanfare, just done a solid job.

Rafa´s going off the rails mate, he´s lost the plot scarily similar to Kenny, Evans and Houllier. (Souness never knew the plot).

Time for Rafa to go to church and make his peace. Time for him to act like MON.
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Postby tubby » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:27 pm

Yeah, he tried to play mind games with Fergie and just ended up looking a tit. He should have kept his mouth shut and just got on with it rathe than saying they are scared of us.
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