Liverpool FC Forum

[48-1119859832]

Oasis, the thought of debating you on this issue wearies me.  I can tell from past experience that you've dug in your heels and won't budge for love nor money.  Besides, you get upset at me when I have a go.   

So, I'll leave it at this:

Rafa is a great manager but he makes mistakes...

100% agree...I've never once said otherwise.

and he's made one here.

100% disagree...for the sound reasons already outlined.

No I get deeply irritating when you take a perfectally good debate and turn it into a slanging match. 

[Bad Bob]

You sure do!

[48-1119859832]

[Bad Bob]

On the issue of defensive midfielders it's time for a Stu the Red moment (without the rage )...

We do not have nor do we require a defensive/holding midfielder.  Let's take a look at our big three:

1) Gerrard...gets forward and defends with equal brilliance and can be expected to do both over the course of 90 minutes

2) Alonso...sits deep, gets stuck in but is so much more than just a "holding midfielder".  He is the creative spark in midfield and thus is crucial to our attacking play

3) Sissoko...our box-to-box ball-winner who can start our moves just as easily as he snuffs out opposition attacks

Now, I don't want to see any of these three out of the side for any significant time this season but, should one get injured, we will cope, no matter who that player is.  People already know how well Xabi and Momo play together so we can cope with a short-term loss of Gerrard.  What I don't get is this notion that we're screwed if Momo or especially Xabi are out.  Don't you people think that Stevie can adjust his game to play with either without unduly hurting his performance?  He is, after all, the best midfielder in the world!

I just don't see a problem with a Xabi-Stevie or Momo-Stevie central midfield.  Since both players in each pairing have the ability to contribute offensively and defensively they both will over the course of a match.  One does not have to sit back the whole match while the other gets forward.  This isn't England and there's no Fat Frank to carry here.  We have multi-talented yet disciplined central midfielders who can play well as a unit.  No need to draft Carragher into a holding role or anything silly like that if Xabi needs to miss a game, IMO.

And, for the record, no one at Liverpool wanted Didi to leave.  It's not like he was binned by Rafa.  Rather, the gaffer did the gentlemanly thing and told a great servant of the club that his playing time would be minimal this season and then gave him the option of seeking first-team football elsewhere--an option Didi went for.  Let's stop all this 'how thick is Rafa for letting Didi go?' nonsense. 

I agree with most of your post Badbob as basically its pretty much what I was trying to say. I dont however agree that Gerrard can cover for Xabi's absence without severely compromising his performance and that of Liverpool. Gerrard when he plays central midfield plays the same role as Momo.Differing styles and strengths but essentially the same role.
           Xabi is the one that takes the ball from the back four.Xabi is the one that protects the back four. When Xabi moves forward it is not Momo or Gerrard that covers for him it is Carragher who steps up. If you play Gerrard in that position (which he is more than capable of playing) Either you finish up with Carragher stepping out of defence or Gerrard being restricted by his defensive and distribution duties.
           Momo as we both agree is a box to box midfielder. ( more similar to a young Roy Keane when he played with Ince, than Vierra)He doesnt hold a defensive line he attacks the player and the ball. He doesnt cover positions.Hence Zenden playing D/M yesterday not Momo.
           Gerrard would be the obvious choice as I said in my earlier post but it would definately have an adverse effect on the teams attacking or defensive capabilities. In a nutshell (for anyone who still cares) Gerrard can cover for Momo, Momo can cover for Gerrard, but Momo cant cover for Xabi. Gerrard can cover for Xabi but with the loss of the better part of his game. Gerrard could play right- back but you wouldnt want him to.

A sound argument Saint and, to a point, I agree.  Xabi is unique and is always going to be difficult to replace if he gets hurt or suspended...perhaps especially now that Hamman is gone.  Gerrard, as you say, can fill the position short term but with some loss to his natural game (ie. getting forward with abandon).

My feeling is that, in the short term, a Gerrard-Momo partnership would still be the best way to cover for an absent Alonso.  It might take some time to gel but both are fantastic and quite instinctual midfielders who could do the business together, IMO.  I'd at least be prepared to try it for a few games to see.  After all, we have added a bunch of attacking players so that we're not a one-man team anymore.  If Gerrard has to hang back a bit in Xabi's absence, I have faith that others will pick up the attacking slack.

Personally, I just don't like the idea of chopping and changing elsewhere in the team (i.e Carra in a holding role etc) to account for what I feel would be a fairly mild short-term deficiency--it smacks so much of Sven's desperate tactics when one of his preferred is unavailable.  Rafa's better than that, plus we now have the squad to cover every player's absence short term without playing players out of position. 

Having said that, a long-term injury would be a set-back and so I can see your point about buying cover for Xabi.  Preferably someone cheap but talented, who does not mind not getting a game for the better part of the season.

[Bad Bob]

badbob....what i was saying is that if sissoko is out,  we'd have to play Gerrard in sissoko's position, which obviouslly would take away a sht lot of gerrard's game ! I dont see why that has to happen...Get a young talented DM or even gravesen from REalMadrid at cheap and keep him in the bench.... Sissoko isn't quite what u'd call 'injury prone' but u cant take ur chances on that one ( last season) ! I never said it was Rafa's bad selling Hamann i just said that we needed cover now that Hamann is gone !

BigMick    ... the whole raul thing... wasnt trying to sound sarcastic or anything but Raul as a second option if we cant buy Kuyt got me stunned there for a sec ! BadBob know how low i rate Kuyt and despite Raul's form in the last couple of season's i dont see how he can be second to Kuyt ?! Sorry again lad 

aCe'...

In this and other threads, you seem to suggest that Sissoko is a holding midfielder.  Not true mate.  Xabi's our "holding midfielder"--to coin an overused and, in Xabi's case, totally inadequate term.  He sits in front of the back four and shields them, while starting attacks by receiving the first ball out of defense (when we aren't going Route 1 to Crouch  ).

Sissoko, as others (Espionage especially) have pointed out, is our box-to-box ball-winning CM.  In Chelsea terms, Xabi's a better version of Makalele (he can pass more than 4 feet!) while Sissoko is a better version of Essien (he actually wins the ball not the leg most tackles!). (No need to compare Stevie to Fat Fwank...there is no comparison!)

So, if Momo were out, Gerrard could fill his shoes more naturally than he fills Xabi's (which was Saint's point above).

As for Raul.  First of all, your figure of 71million pounds is taking the p!ss for sure.  Secondly and most importantly, though you need to get it through your head that Rafa is looking for a striker to fit his system first and foremost.  As sh!te as Kuyt likely is on Footy Manager, as mediocre as he was in Germany, Rafa sees something in the lad that will add to the team.  Do not doubt for a second that he rates Kuyt higher than many of the much more fashionable marquee strikers out there.  Remember his infamous quote about tables and lamps? 

[Bad Bob]

:laugh:

And after all, you're my Wonderwall...


























































































How fitting...my thousandth post is wasted sparring with Oasis!     

[48-1119859832]

:laugh:

And after all, you're my Wonderwall...


























































































How fitting...my thousandth post is wasted sparring with Oasis!     

Bob, I thought you were an educated man who teaches Geography and can read, obviously I was wrong, because if you had read some of my posts, you'd know my name comes from the little water hole in the desert known funnily enough as an Oasis, I do not like Oasis the crappy English band.

This is where my name comes from


Not this s.*i*e

[Anfield Kop]

Does anyone else think that the Summer Spending is over? The rumours seemed of dried up......

Wouldn't be suprised if we manage to bring in another signing .

John Barnes , who has more of a connection as to whats happening at LFC than most of us in here (not counting the Welsh Wizard) in his pre match commentary at Grasshopper, Barnsie seemed to think we're still looking to sign a striker . Kuyts name was mentioned (again  )

Rafa Benitez just declared on Liverpoolfc.Tv that he is still looking to sign another striker before August 31st.

[Bad Bob]

Bob, I thought you were an educated man who teaches Geography and can read, obviously I was wrong, because if you had read some of my posts, you'd know my name comes from the little water hole in the desert known funnily enough as an Oasis, I do not like Oasis the crappy English band.

This is where my name comes from


Not this s.*i*e

I know, I know...you've explained your name origin in the past. 

It's just a word association thing for me.  I see "Oasis" and that's the first thing that comes to mind (although chihuahuas, tequila and Nacho Libre-style wrestlers have crept in following your ardent Mexicophilia last month!).

Just a bit of a wind-up there mate...sorry! 

[48-1119859832]

[aCe']

badbob....what i was saying is that if sissoko is out,  we'd have to play Gerrard in sissoko's position, which obviouslly would take away a sht lot of gerrard's game ! I dont see why that has to happen...Get a young talented DM or even gravesen from REalMadrid at cheap and keep him in the bench.... Sissoko isn't quite what u'd call 'injury prone' but u cant take ur chances on that one ( last season) ! I never said it was Rafa's bad selling Hamann i just said that we needed cover now that Hamann is gone !

BigMick    ... the whole raul thing... wasnt trying to sound sarcastic or anything but Raul as a second option if we cant buy Kuyt got me stunned there for a sec ! BadBob know how low i rate Kuyt and despite Raul's form in the last couple of season's i dont see how he can be second to Kuyt ?! Sorry again lad 

aCe'...

In this and other threads, you seem to suggest that Sissoko is a holding midfielder.  Not true mate.  Xabi's our "holding midfielder"--to coin an overused and, in Xabi's case, totally inadequate term.  He sits in front of the back four and shields them, while starting attacks by receiving the first ball out of defense (when we aren't going Route 1 to Crouch  ).

Sissoko, as others (Espionage especially) have pointed out, is our box-to-box ball-winning CM.  In Chelsea terms, Xabi's a better version of Makalele (he can pass more than 4 feet!) while Sissoko is a better version of Essien (he actually wins the ball not the leg most tackles!). (No need to compare Stevie to Fat Fwank...there is no comparison!)

So, if Momo were out, Gerrard could fill his shoes more naturally than he fills Xabi's (which was Saint's point above).

As for Raul.  First of all, your figure of 71million pounds is taking the p!ss for sure.  Secondly and most importantly, though you need to get it through your head that Rafa is looking for a striker to fit his system first and foremost.  As sh!te as Kuyt likely is on Footy Manager, as mediocre as he was in Germany, Rafa sees something in the lad that will add to the team.  Do not doubt for a second that he rates Kuyt higher than many of the much more fashionable marquee strikers out there.  Remember his infamous quote about tables and lamps? 

emmm...badbob...all u'v said about xabi alonso being a "holding midfieder" and all...check out the sissoko thread.. trust me i know the difference between a holding midfielder and a "box to box" midfielder (if that's the name ) ! from all i;v seen of your posts you seem to think that u 'know it all' while no one else does.... ur soccer knowledge is impressive i give you that much...but the problem is...you post stuff just so others think you know liverpool and rafa not to mention soccer as a sport inside out ! CHILL MATE !
Raul was a brilliant striker not so long ago and RealMadrid are known for their ludicrous valuation of players ! Raul is indespensible for real and i cant see him goin anywhere in the near future for cheap ! definitely no less than 10 mill ! Aaaand... the 71mill offer chelsea made wasnt a laugh ! Real dont need money and if they want a player who's theirs they keep him ! Rafa is a great manager and all...but u need to acknowledge that he makes mistakes every know and then... Morientes was a mistake wasnt he ... he got him and must have thought he was one that "fit his system".... get real mate.... we need a good striker and kuyt is good ! Dont try to make it sound like he's the best player in the world out there that we can get to fill that gap we got ... simple...he isnt.. !
I donno why but financially we arent up there with the big guns... we paid some 13 mill and dont know if we have some 10mill for an additional striker... ?!

[48-1119859832]

Raul is past his sell by date, he's getting on, he's injury-prone, he's overrated, over-indulged and over-priced, thanks, but no thanks.

Bob is correct for once. (About time) 

[aCe']

never said he wasnt ! no big club would want to sign him with the form he has had goin for 2 seasons now !
point was... would he be our second option if dirk kuyt at 10mill is too expensive for liverpool ?!
What do yo think oasis ?

[48-1119859832]

never said he wasnt ! no big club would want to sign him with the form he has had goin for 2 seasons now !
point was... would he be our second option if dirk kuyt at 10mill is too expensive for liverpool ?!
What do yo think oasis ?

I'd rather have neither and play FSP.

Raul would just be a waste of money.

[Bad Bob]

emmm...badbob...all u'v said about xabi alonso being a "holding midfieder" and all...check out the sissoko thread.. trust me i know the difference between a holding midfielder and a "box to box" midfielder (if that's the name ) ! from all i;v seen of your posts you seem to think that u 'know it all' while no one else does.... ur soccer knowledge is impressive i give you that much...but the problem is...you post stuff just so others think you know liverpool and rafa not to mention soccer as a sport inside out ! CHILL MATE !
Raul was a brilliant striker not so long ago and RealMadrid are known for their ludicrous valuation of players ! Raul is indespensible for real and i cant see him goin anywhere in the near future for cheap ! definitely no less than 10 mill ! Aaaand... the 71mill offer chelsea made wasnt a laugh ! Real dont need money and if they want a player who's theirs they keep him ! Rafa is a great manager and all...but u need to acknowledge that he makes mistakes every know and then... Morientes was a mistake wasnt he ... he got him and must have thought he was one that "fit his system".... get real mate.... we need a good striker and kuyt is good ! Dont try to make it sound like he's the best player in the world out there that we can get to fill that gap we got ... simple...he isnt.. !
I donno why but financially we arent up there with the big guns... we paid some 13 mill and dont know if we have some 10mill for an additional striker... ?!

aCe'...

I am chilled, I assure you.   I may come across as intense but I'm not raging at anyone here I'm just up for some good football debate is all.  Nor do I claim to know it all and that no one else knows anything...far from it!

Now, speaking of debate...back to Raul!

I would love to see evidence that Chelsea submitted a 71 million pound bid for Raul because no one is worth that much.  Hell, that's well past double what they paid for Shevchenko, who is a much better prospect at the moment than Raul.  Moreover, I don't believe for a minute that Real would have turned down that kind of money.  Sure, Raul's a club legend, but an aging and out of form one who's not going to recapture his form from the glory days.  I'm simply not having that story!

As for Rafa, there is no question that he's made some mistakes in the transfer market.  And, yes, Morientes is one of them.  I personally was thrilled when he signed because he's always looked class but he couldn't cut it.  So, I'm not for one minute arguing that Rafa knows all and that we should all just rally round his transfer targets in blind solidarity.  All I'm saying is there are reasons--both financial and tactical--for why he's got Kuyt at the head of his shopping list for strikers.  Personally, I'm actually fairly neutral on Kuyt--he may be great, he may flop--but I understand why he's being looked at (as I know you do too).