Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

There was mention the other day in a thread about whether we buy players and sell at a loss. Now I only have figures reported at the time or taken from a source so I don't know how accurate they are, but it is interesting nonetheless

Sold/released by Houllier or Benitez (£4m+ signings)

Cisse - in £14m, out £6m
Heskey - in £11m, out £6.25m
Diouf - in £10m, out £3m?
Hamann* - in £8m, out Free?
Morientes - in £6.3m, out £3m
Luis Garcia - in £6m, out £4m
Bellamy - in £6m, out £7.5m
Barmby - in £6m, out £2.75m
Kirkland - in £6m, out ? ? ?
Ziege - in £5.5m, out £4m
Biscan - in £5m, out free
Diao - in £5m, out free
Dudek* - in £4.85m, out free
McAteer - in £4.5m, out £4m
Ince* - in £4.5m, out £1m
Cheyrou - in £4.5m, out free?
Smicer - in £4.2m, out free
Westerveld - in £4m, out £3.5m

*sold because they were getting old or in decline, not because they were rubbish so inevitably sold at a loss

I repeat that I don't know how accurate some figures are, certainly the Diouf figure was never likely to be confirmed. If someone has a reliable source then I am happy to amend the above, it is only guideline to show how we do or don't make profits on players and not meant to be 100% gospel

Sold

players : 11
Cost : £77.8m (ave £7.1m)
Sold : £45m (ave 4.1m)

Average loss : £3.0m

Free/released/unknown sale value - 7 players, cost £37.55m

[Owzat]

Ironically some of our best sales have been youth team produced players

£11m Fowler
£8.0m Owen
£4.5m Matteo
£3.0m Wright
£3.0m Thompson
£1.5m Warnock

If we sold Gerrard or Carra then they would be near the top if not top of that list

[account deleted by request]

Hamann* - in £8m, out £4m

I think you got this one wrong mate.

[Flepent]

Fair point that

[Reg]

Which top 10 side actually does buy in and sell at a profit?  I dont thik any does surely?

Football clubs make their money on TV rights, sponsership, prize money, advertising, ticket income and merchandise - hence they can afford to buy in expensive (possibly overpriced) quality players to maintain that senior club status and afford to take the hit when they have to offload to non-top 6 clubs. Viscious circle at the end of the day but Real Madrid are probably the best example.

[hello_red]

If we where a selling club I would be worried about losses on a player however we are not. A player comes to us, when they are sold it is because they are either to old or not good enough and I would not expect to make a profit so whats to worry about???

This thread is pointless.

[ConnO'var]

If we where a selling club I would be worried about losses on a player however we are not. A player comes to us, when they are sold it is because they are either to old or not good enough and I would not expect to make a profit so whats to worry about???

This thread is pointless.

I disagree...... However, if you feel that it's pointless, then feel free too ignore the thread.

IMO, it's not about profits, it's about how far we have progressed or slid back as a club. It's also about what could have been with 20/20 hindsight.

Initially, the list provided in the 1st post is alarming but I feel that some of it can be put down to operating expenses that every club in world will face.

No manager or his backroom staff can possibly get every single transaction/transfer right. We are talking about people and not attributes on the computer screen. No matter how good a player is, said player is still human and is affected by a myriad of factors and parameters that could determine the success or otherwise of his transfer to a new club, city, country, league, playing system and/or environment. For us to be successfull in the transfer market, it is an art as well as a science. IMO, it is not just important to have the ability to identify raw ability and talent. It is equally important to judge whether a player has the right attitude, mental fortitude and character to make it. Hence why I term these kind of losses, "operating expenses".

Minor (relative of course) losses are ok and in the list that Owzat provides, I have no issues with many of the players we've lost money on.

The players who did their time here and served the club well and are only now gone due to age, injury or what have you, I say "thank you" and we'll always remember you. I agree that players that fall into that category are Didi, Ince and Dudek.

The middling group don't concern me that much financially either. These are the guys tried at reasonable prices and didn't work out but we didn't lose much. They are Morientes, Garcias, Barmby, Ziege, McAteer and Westerveld.

it's the last group however that have affected us financially and is largely due to bad judgement. Hesky, Diao, Diouf, Biscan and Cheyrou.

What does concern me however, is that both the 2nd and 3rd Group listed above has not only cost us money but more importantly, time. THAT, we'll never get back and IMO played a huge role in our unsuccessful recent attempts (lst 6 years or so) to close the gap on the current leaders in the premiership.

Poor judgment of player potentials and/or poor management of the transfer process (guess only, nothing more) that has resulted in us losing our 1st choice and having to settle for a lesser player has cost us way too much IMO.

[account deleted by request]

If we where a selling club I would be worried about losses on a player however we are not. A player comes to us, when they are sold it is because they are either to old or not good enough and I would not expect to make a profit so whats to worry about???

This thread is pointless.

I disagree...... However, if you feel that it's pointless, then feel free too ignore the thread.

IMO, it's not about profits, it's about how far we have progressed or slid back as a club. It's also about what could have been with 20/20 hindsight.

Initially, the list provided in the 1st post is alarming but I feel that some of it can be put down to operating expenses that every club in world will face.

No manager or his backroom staff can possibly get every single transaction/transfer right. We are talking about people and not attributes on the computer screen. No matter how good a player is, said player is still human and is affected by a myriad of factors and parameters that could determine the success or otherwise of his transfer to a new club, city, country, league, playing system and/or environment. For us to be successfull in the transfer market, it is an art as well as a science. IMO, it is not just important to have the ability to identify raw ability and talent. It is equally important to judge whether a player has the right attitude, mental fortitude and character to make it. Hence why I term these kind of losses, "operating expenses".

Minor (relative of course) losses are ok and in the list that Owzat provides, I have no issues with many of the players we've lost money on.

The players who did their time here and served the club well and are only now gone due to age, injury or what have you, I say "thank you" and we'll always remember you. I agree that players that fall into that category are Didi, Ince and Dudek.

The middling group don't concern me that much financially either. These are the guys tried at reasonable prices and didn't work out but we didn't lose much. They are Morientes, Garcias, Barmby, Ziege, McAteer and Westerveld.

it's the last group however that have affected us financially and is largely due to bad judgement. Hesky, Diao, Diouf, Biscan and Cheyrou.

What does concern me however, is that both the 2nd and 3rd Group listed above has not only cost us money but more importantly, time. THAT, we'll never get back and IMO played a huge role in our unsuccessful recent attempts (lst 6 years or so) to close the gap on the current leaders in the premiership.

Poor judgment of player potentials and/or poor management of the transfer process (guess only, nothing more) that has resulted in us losing our 1st choice and having to settle for a lesser player has cost us way too much IMO.

Good post Conn'ovar, The only thing I disagree with is the length of time bad buys have cost us success. I would go for 17 years rather than 6 years. Souness showed just how much effect bad buys can have on a team, and how we have been playing catchup ever since.

The sad thing is I agreed with most of his buys at the time  , but the way he broke up a still great team was stupid.

I honestly believe that if Daglish had stayed (or come back in the summer of that year)Fergie would have been sacked within a couple of years and our league title count would be almost 30 now.

[ConnO'var]

I agree [email]s@int....[/email] 17 years ago, the slide began with Souness... I mentioned the 6 recent years only to keep into perspective the timeframe of Owzat's post. But you are right.....

It went pear shaped when Kenny left..... Souness was the best midfield general of his time IMO, but in hindsight.... a manager he definitely is not. But who knew? It worked once with Dalglish, we all thought.... so we had no idea how badly things were gonna turn out when Souey was appointed.

But definitely things are better with Rafa now.... still not where I'd like us to be yet (and Rafa is by no means my ideal manager) but better nonetheless....

I just hope the league trophy is coming home soon.

[dawson99]

didnt dalglish leave it in a pretty bad state for souness tho? not standing up for him but he didnt exactly take the helm when all was rosy

[ConnO'var]

didnt dalglish leave it in a pretty bad state for souness tho? not standing up for him but he didnt exactly take the helm when all was rosy

I saw it a little differently dawson.... He left behind an aging team but it was by no means in a bad state imo. It didn't need the wholesale changes that Souey brought.

Remember, he left Liverpool Football club when we were still champions of England..... Many speculate and I'm one who agrees with the opinion that Hillsborough finally took it's toll on him emotionally.....

The scotsman is still sorely missed.

[account deleted by request]

didnt dalglish leave it in a pretty bad state for souness tho? not standing up for him but he didnt exactly take the helm when all was rosy

We were top of the league, still in every cup.(and remember this was February)  A few players were reaching the end of great careers but we still had the nucleus of a great team. Barnes, Beardsley,Rush with McManaman  just breaking through into the first team. Fowler and Redknapp ready to step in within a couple of years.

Admittedly the cost of putting seats in etc had effected how much spare cash we had, but you only have to look at how much Souness spent to see that there was still money available.

[hello_red]

Fair point on the ignoring side.

But the Dalglish/Souness era is very interesting and is responsible for our fall from grace. Th bad decisions of one man put the bullet in the chamber, not winning silverware when money started flooding into the game pulled the trigger I fear.

[ConnO'var]

Fair point on the ignoring side.

But the Dalglish/Souness era is very interesting and is responsible for our fall from grace. Th bad decisions of one man put the bullet in the chamber, not winning silverware when money started flooding into the game pulled the trigger I fear.

Fair play to you mate.
I was a little concerned that you may have miscontrued that remark and am happy to say that those concerns were unfounded.

Regarding the Dalglish and Souey discussion.... Well, I guess I'm just an old fogey who remember with fondness the way we were under Dalglish. If he had stayed, who knows where we would be now.

Proven track record. Only the 3rd manager ever to win the league with 2 different clubs. 3 times manager of the year. Winner of the league and FA cup double in his 1st managerial season..... etc etc... the accolades go on and on.

Didn't buy too many duds either.....
(Unsubtle way to get back to Owzat's sales topic.....    )

[Reg]

Kenny had a nervous breakdown so pointless to wonder what might have happened if he had stayed.