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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby LFC2007 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:16 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:47 pm wrote:There exists plenty of quote's made by John Henry ,it would be slightly desperate of me if I felt the need to garner everyone ,but the main ones are
this proposed stadium ,which I am sure you will concur is becoming a real bug bear ,because we are no nearer resolving that particular problem than
when Hicks and Co were here ... John Henry was also insistent  that Liverpool would eventually challenge United and Man City at the top ,but if that
means Liverpool supposedly evolving into a business model akin to Arsenals, then you only have to collate the number of times Arsenal have challenged
for the league since adapting this method ..... Or for that matter won a trophy .


To be honest, mate, I'm not sure exactly where the club is right now insofar as stadium expansion is concerned. Like everyone else, I've read comments by the owners, Ian Ayre and some of the stakeholders involved about the steps being taken to resolve the issue, but without concrete action there will always be doubts. After what took place under G&H, I can understand those doubts but we should remember that it's still relatively early in FSG's tenure and that major building projects like these do take time to come to fruition. Perhaps we should ask the question: how long is long enough before we should start to seriously doubt the owners' committment to stadium expansion? What exactly did FSG inherit and what work is needed to get the stadium project up and running? I'm not sure what the answers to these questions is but as it's a major undertakening, I tend to err on the side of believing that it may take longer than 18 months from the point of planning to the beginning of construction.

As for their wider strategy for success, I think it remains to be seen whether it can work. Having a long-term policy of only investing as much in the team as the club generates by way of revenue ought to mean we remain financially viable, but under current conditions it means we have to get more performance from fewer resources in order to compete with the top clubs. That's principally the manager's responsibility. Can his system of play and eye for talent negate the need for bigger spending? We just don't know as of yet because Rodgers has barely got his feet under the table and is still in the process of re-shaping the squad to fit his philosophy. I would personally doubt whether we could make major progress without being much more competitive on the transfer front than we have been these past few seasons but I do believe we have the potential to get past Arsenal or Spurs to make the CL. At that point, so long as we're reasonably successful in the CL, the money should begin to flow in and, if the owners are faithful to their plan, the club's transfer funds ought to increase, allowing the manager greater opportunity to strengthen the squad.

Even then, it's highly probable that any increases in revenue arising from our participation in the CL, or by any other means, won't be enough to make us competitive with clubs that have billionaire benefactors, such is the difference in spending power that is so crucial to attracting the best players. That's why the owners have made frequent reference to the FFP rules. It's clearly key to their strategy because, if enforced properly, clubs like Chelsea and Man City won't be able to outspend every other club in the division. Subject to an 'acceptable deviation level', clubs will only be able to spend what the generate in revenue. As others have pointed out, though, much depends on whether clubs are able to circumvent the rules and whether strong enough sanctions are brought bear on clubs that don't comply. There is a then a further implication if those clubs manage to establish some kind of European 'super league' where all the best players end up, but that's well down the line and not something any of us know enough about to intelligently comment upon. There are also questions as to whether these 'Sugar Daddy' owners stick around at all. Do Abramovich/Sheik Mansour and co. care enough about their respective clubs to bankroll them forevery and a day, or will there come a time in the not too distant future when they decide to depart, leaving those clubs with massive wage bills that they can't support without a replacement billionaire backer? Those clubs may be spending a tonne of money right now, but when that money dries up, clubs that have been run on a sustainable basis will have an advantage, and if FSG adhere to the strategy they have outlined, we should be one of those clubs.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:57 pm

LFC2007 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:16 pm wrote:
To be honest, mate, I'm not sure exactly where the club is right now insofar as stadium expansion is concerned. Like everyone else, I've read comments by the owners, Ian Ayre and some of the stakeholders involved about the steps being taken to resolve the issue, but without concrete action there will always be doubts. After what took place under G&H, I can understand those doubts but we should remember that it's still relatively early in FSG's tenure and that major building projects like these do take time to come to fruition. Perhaps we should ask the question: how long is long enough before we should start to seriously doubt the owners' committment to stadium expansion? What exactly did FSG inherit and what work is needed to get the stadium project up and running? I'm not sure what the answers to these questions is but as it's a major undertakening, I tend to err on the side of believing that it may take longer than 18 months from the point of planning to the beginning of construction.

As for their wider strategy for success, I think it remains to be seen whether it can work. Having a long-term policy of only investing as much in the team as the club generates by way of revenue ought to mean we remain financially viable, but under current conditions it means we have to get more performance from fewer resources in order to compete with the top clubs. That's principally the manager's responsibility. Can his system of play and eye for talent negate the need for bigger spending? We just don't know as of yet because Rodgers has barely got his feet under the table and is still in the process of re-shaping the squad to fit his philosophy. I would personally doubt whether we could make major progress without being much more competitive on the transfer front than we have been these past few seasons but I do believe we have the potential to get past Arsenal or Spurs to make the CL. At that point, so long as we're reasonably successful in the CL, the money should begin to flow in and, if the owners are faithful to their plan, the club's transfer funds ought to increase, allowing the manager greater opportunity to strengthen the squad.

Even then, it's highly probable that any increases in revenue arising from our participation in the CL, or by any other means, won't be enough to make us competitive with clubs that have billionaire benefactors, such is the difference in spending power that is so crucial to attracting the best players. That's why the owners have made frequent reference to the FFP rules. It's clearly key to their strategy because, if enforced properly, clubs like Chelsea and Man City won't be able to outspend every other club in the division. Subject to an 'acceptable deviation level', clubs will only be able to spend what the generate in revenue. As others have pointed out, though, much depends on whether clubs are able to circumvent the rules and whether strong enough sanctions are brought bear on clubs that don't comply. There is a then a further implication if those clubs manage to establish some kind of European 'super league' where all the best players end up, but that's well down the line and not something any of us know enough about to intelligently comment upon. There are also questions as to whether these 'Sugar Daddy' owners stick around at all. Do Abramovich/Sheik Mansour and co. care enough about their respective clubs to bankroll them forevery and a day, or will there come a time in the not too distant future when they decide to depart, leaving those clubs with massive wage bills that they can't support without a replacement billionaire backer? Those clubs may be spending a tonne of money right now, but when that money dries up, clubs that have been run on a sustainable basis will have an advantage, and if FSG adhere to the strategy they have outlined, we should be one of those clubs.


Firstly mate ,great post .

I understand that in the long term FSG's blueprint for the club can only be beneficial to our continued growth ,but in layman's terms mate, the wait could
be seriously detrimental to our future .It seems to me that the owners are heaping a great deal of expectation on the acumen of Rodgers  ,because if he
fails to cram us into those lucrative Champions League places then the owners project will only serve to see us fall further behind the already distastefully
hasty gait of the leading pack .

I  fervently hope Abramovic and Mansour leave their respective clubs ,because that is the only scenario I can envisage the owners grand plan coming to
pass .I hope the owners can retain the faith of the fans ,because John Henry seems like he's genuine enough ,but I don't believe this being frugal within
the transfer market is pleasing everyone ,I mean already the signs of discontent can be visibly seen, not least with some of our share holders voicing
their disappointment at the lack of ambition ie Le Bron James  ,Ok he may not be a major shareholder ,but how long before this is echoed by the New York
Times mate ?
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Postby tubby » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:30 am

In order to achieve long term stability the owners need to pump more in now. I'm not saying 4th is out of the question but let's be realistic here.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:56 pm

[quote="Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:43 pm]

Can you really see them stopping clubs like Madrid or Barce or Chelsea or the Mancs competing in the CL ? The first one they attempt to kick out the rest follow and we get a European League controlled by the clubs away from UEFA and all the money will be with them


there will be a european super league anyway within the next 10-20 years i reckon.
it will be part of the general merging of european countries into a european superstate, the united states of europe.
we already have a european parliament, a european currency, a european flag, a european passport, a european central bank, a defacto european constitution (the lisbon treaty) and now there`s been talk of britain, france and poland starting to intigrate their military`s with british planes being based on french aircraft carriers etc.
if uefa created a european super league i think they`d get a lot of backing from the politicians who`d see it as an important cultural step towards closer european integration.
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Postby mart » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:44 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 am wrote:if uefa created a european super league i think they`d get a lot of backing from the politicians who`d see it as an important cultural step towards closer european integration.


UEFA have done a lot to try and stop the european super league so if we get one it will most likely be controlled by the big clubs.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:28 pm

mart » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:44 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 am wrote:if uefa created a european super league i think they`d get a lot of backing from the politicians who`d see it as an important cultural step towards closer european integration.


UEFA have done a lot to try and stop the european super league so if we get one it will most likely be controlled by the big clubs.


i wouldnt say that, they have probably done a lot to try and stop the big clubs breaking away and forming their own super league but by replacing the european cup with the champions league format they are paving the way for european teams to compete against each other in a league format.
a european super league will happen eventually, as i said the political will is there, it wont happen overnight but my guess is there will be one within the next 20 years.
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Postby red till i die!! » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:57 pm

if the big clubs cant abide by the new regulations then it could happen a lot earlier.
its been a while since ive read anything about this and from what i remember its been driven by rumenigge and bayern.there is some memorandum of understanding between the clubs and fifa/uefa that exists and its due to expire in 2014 so after that date clubs arent obliged to enter any european competition or release their players for internationals unless they agree to sign up again for another 4 years.
if uefa start banning teams from european competition due to financial reasons then they will pull away and form their own.uefa/fifa could not afford to let this happen so thats why i believe they will never enforce the ffp rules to the letter.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:01 pm

red till i die!! » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:57 pm wrote:if the big clubs cant abide by the new regulations then it could happen a lot earlier.
its been a while since ive read anything about this and from what i remember its been driven by rumenigge and bayern.there is some memorandum of understanding between the clubs and fifa/uefa that exists and its due to expire in 2014 so after that date clubs arent obliged to enter any european competition or release their players for internationals unless they agree to sign up again for another 4 years.
if uefa start banning teams from european competition due to financial reasons then they will pull away and form their own.uefa/fifa could not afford to let this happen so thats why i believe they will never enforce the ffp rules to the letter.


you could be right mate, it may happen sooner.
a lot of big clubs these days are owned by non europeans and people who havent been involved in the game a long time (liverpool, manchester united, chelsea, arsenal, aston villa, PSG, man city etc)
those owners may have a different vision for the future of the game than uefa, if any breakaway league was proposed i`m sure the 2 glasgow giants would jump at the chance to join and any league with the likes of liverpool, manchester united, celtic, rangers, arsenal, chelsea etc in it would attract a lot of interest (and other clubs).
i doubt it would happen but lets not forget the precedent has been set with the formation of the premier league 20 years ago, the premier league started out with liverpool, everton, united and spurs moaning that they werent getting enough money out of the football league, a few years later they broke away and started their own league, managing to convince 16 other clubs to join them.
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Postby red till i die!! » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:19 am

most clubs are owned by investors so its easy to see what their vision is,money and more of it.profits always have to increase as what you earned the previous year becomes the minimum acceptable the next.
it was only last year that we ruffled the feathers of the F.A by wanting to control our own tv rights and if its incentives like that being offered in a european super league then for starters our lot would have us signed up in the blink of an eye and so would most clubs.
your right the prem has set the precedent but as it is 20 years old its been well flogged in terms of revenues to the point that clubs arent able to compete on that alone anymore.
many other european leagues are set up different to the prem in terms of tv money allocated,in some the bigger club you are then the more money you get,the prem is unique in the way it divides it.
in 2011 every club in the prem got £13,788,093 as an equal share of domestic tv revenue and a further £18,764,633 from overseas tv revenue.wolves got an extra £755,062 for bottom place with city topping with £15,101,250.7th place gets £10 mil :oh: .on top they also earn facility fees of £485,000 per live tv match in the uk with extras for net,phone and delayed rights.
we earned almost £55mil alone from the prem last year with city and manure just topping £60mil.none of this includes match day or comercial revenues.
i bet no other league either hands clubs a parachute payment on top of that of over £15mil to help you get over the shock of relegation.
a similar format in a super league would have much more revenue than that and it would have clubs queing up to join.
i can well see this being proposed in the next 2-5 yrs.
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Postby ethanr » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:46 am

Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:18 pm"]
SouthCoastShankly » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:22 pm wrote:
First thing - its UEFA FFP model. The punishments will be fines - big clubs will just pay them off - and if they do start to threaten clubs to be kicked out of the CL you then have the first step towards the European League breakaway - FFP will not be enforced very strictly.


Not 100% true. The FFFR are linked to a UEFA club licence. The proposed ultimate punishment for missing the FFFR for a club is not being granted a UEFA club licence, subsequently not being eligible for participating in European competitions.

This is what FIFA/UEFA must enforce. Without this threat being real, clubs will not treat the rules seriously.[/quote]

Can you really see them stopping clubs like Madrid or Barce or Chelsea or the Mancs competing in the CL ? The first one they attempt to kick out the rest follow and we get a European League controlled by the clubs away from UEFA and all the money will be with them[/quote]



But think about it Benny.  If they said you just had to pay a fine, then there would have been exactly 0 point of FFP in the first place because only the clubs who are the reasoning behind FFP would be able to pay that fine.

I would imagine they will work with the clubs to get them to qualify, but I could see that being the loss of rights to purchase any players or have any come in on loan, and  only the right to sell players until they are even.  I'm sure there will be loop holes, but they need to be fixed or people won't take UEFA seriously.
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Postby Kenny Kan » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:41 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:56 am wrote:[quote="Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:43 pm]

Can you really see them stopping clubs like Madrid or Barce or Chelsea or the Mancs competing in the CL ? The first one they attempt to kick out the rest follow and we get a European League controlled by the clubs away from UEFA and all the money will be with them


there will be a european super league anyway within the next 10-20 years i reckon.
it will be part of the general merging of european countries into a european superstate, the united states of europe.
we already have a european parliament, a european currency, a european flag, a european passport, a european central bank, a defacto european constitution (the lisbon treaty) and now there`s been talk of britain, france and poland starting to intigrate their military`s with british planes being based on french aircraft carriers etc.
if uefa created a european super league i think they`d get a lot of backing from the politicians who`d see it as an important cultural step towards closer european integration.


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There's been talk of a European super league before. It will not form though because of the EUSSR. Far from it, in 10-20 years time the European dream of a federal state and will be long gone, although the
bureaucrats  in Brussels would hope that Europe's biggest clubs coluded. Not for European integration but to help them bail out the PIIGS & others. The sooner nation sovereigen states bite the bullet and revert back to their own currencies the sooner Europe will get out of the depression they're in.
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Postby metalhead » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:58 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:57 pm wrote:
LFC2007 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:16 pm wrote:
To be honest, mate, I'm not sure exactly where the club is right now insofar as stadium expansion is concerned. Like everyone else, I've read comments by the owners, Ian Ayre and some of the stakeholders involved about the steps being taken to resolve the issue, but without concrete action there will always be doubts. After what took place under G&H, I can understand those doubts but we should remember that it's still relatively early in FSG's tenure and that major building projects like these do take time to come to fruition. Perhaps we should ask the question: how long is long enough before we should start to seriously doubt the owners' committment to stadium expansion? What exactly did FSG inherit and what work is needed to get the stadium project up and running? I'm not sure what the answers to these questions is but as it's a major undertakening, I tend to err on the side of believing that it may take longer than 18 months from the point of planning to the beginning of construction.

As for their wider strategy for success, I think it remains to be seen whether it can work. Having a long-term policy of only investing as much in the team as the club generates by way of revenue ought to mean we remain financially viable, but under current conditions it means we have to get more performance from fewer resources in order to compete with the top clubs. That's principally the manager's responsibility. Can his system of play and eye for talent negate the need for bigger spending? We just don't know as of yet because Rodgers has barely got his feet under the table and is still in the process of re-shaping the squad to fit his philosophy. I would personally doubt whether we could make major progress without being much more competitive on the transfer front than we have been these past few seasons but I do believe we have the potential to get past Arsenal or Spurs to make the CL. At that point, so long as we're reasonably successful in the CL, the money should begin to flow in and, if the owners are faithful to their plan, the club's transfer funds ought to increase, allowing the manager greater opportunity to strengthen the squad.

Even then, it's highly probable that any increases in revenue arising from our participation in the CL, or by any other means, won't be enough to make us competitive with clubs that have billionaire benefactors, such is the difference in spending power that is so crucial to attracting the best players. That's why the owners have made frequent reference to the FFP rules. It's clearly key to their strategy because, if enforced properly, clubs like Chelsea and Man City won't be able to outspend every other club in the division. Subject to an 'acceptable deviation level', clubs will only be able to spend what the generate in revenue. As others have pointed out, though, much depends on whether clubs are able to circumvent the rules and whether strong enough sanctions are brought bear on clubs that don't comply. There is a then a further implication if those clubs manage to establish some kind of European 'super league' where all the best players end up, but that's well down the line and not something any of us know enough about to intelligently comment upon. There are also questions as to whether these 'Sugar Daddy' owners stick around at all. Do Abramovich/Sheik Mansour and co. care enough about their respective clubs to bankroll them forevery and a day, or will there come a time in the not too distant future when they decide to depart, leaving those clubs with massive wage bills that they can't support without a replacement billionaire backer? Those clubs may be spending a tonne of money right now, but when that money dries up, clubs that have been run on a sustainable basis will have an advantage, and if FSG adhere to the strategy they have outlined, we should be one of those clubs.


Firstly mate ,great post .

I understand that in the long term FSG's blueprint for the club can only be beneficial to our continued growth ,but in layman's terms mate, the wait could
be seriously detrimental to our future .It seems to me that the owners are heaping a great deal of expectation on the acumen of Rodgers  ,because if he
fails to cram us into those lucrative Champions League places then the owners project will only serve to see us fall further behind the already distastefully
hasty gait of the leading pack .

I  fervently hope Abramovic and Mansour leave their respective clubs ,because that is the only scenario I can envisage the owners grand plan coming to
pass .I hope the owners can retain the faith of the fans ,because John Henry seems like he's genuine enough ,but I don't believe this being frugal within
the transfer market is pleasing everyone ,I mean already the signs of discontent can be visibly seen, not least with some of our share holders voicing
their disappointment at the lack of ambition ie Le Bron James  ,Ok he may not be a major shareholder ,but how long before this is echoed by the New York
Times mate ?


My sentiments exactly RB.

Oh and a great post from LFC2007, some of your points are spot on and only time will tell if we ascend or descend, let's hope it's the former
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:01 pm

a european super league will happen eventually imo, it might take 5 years it may take 50 years but i think it`s inevitable somewhere down the line.
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Postby metalhead » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:23 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:01 pm wrote:a european super league will happen eventually imo, it might take 5 years it may take 50 years but i think it`s inevitable somewhere down the line.


end of the world is in december...  :D
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Postby dundreamin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:21 pm

Ac Milans president is a shareholder in FSG the plot thickens
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