by Yosa » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:45 pm
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Going off topic, just like to make a note of respect for the Munich Disaster, 50th anniversary today. I hope the Liverpool faithful don't boo during the Chelsea game, during the minute silence this Sunday (should we have 1, which I think we should and we should respect)
by dawson99 » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:50 pm
by Toffeehater » Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:53 pm
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well if I didn't back him, then I'd be more of a hyprocrite for saying I want Liverpool to succeed except Kuyt. I want the lad to do well, I just can't see it happening, doesn't mean I'm not backing the lad.
by Bammo » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:00 pm
by god_bless_john_houlding » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:16 am
Toffeehater wrote:god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well if I didn't back him, then I'd be more of a hyprocrite for saying I want Liverpool to succeed except Kuyt. I want the lad to do well, I just can't see it happening, doesn't mean I'm not backing the lad.
what burjennio is saying is that if the team has a bad day , stop singling out 1 player which is kuyt , blame all the players , equally . Some of the posters on this forum always use kuyt as a scapegoat , look into the chelsea thread , writing kuyt off even before the match has started
by 112-1077774096 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:22 am
by god_bless_john_houlding » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:31 am
Bammo wrote:It's far too easy for people to slate Kuyt now and it deflects blame away from other players. Torres, Gerrard and Carragher have all had bad games this season yet it's hardly mentioned. It's as if some people on here believe we'd be top of the table if Kuyt wasn't playing.
No one is saying for a second that Kuyt is on form. He's not. I'm a big fan of his but he should be dropped for Crouch on current form.
All the anti-Kuyt/prr-Crouch people should remember this: Crouch went 20+ games without looking like scoring. We supported him and now we want him in the team. Why not show Kuyt support too?
Edit: despite being a writer I can't seem to spell!
by Bammo » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:10 pm
by god_bless_john_houlding » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:16 pm
by big al » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:36 pm
by Scottbot » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:44 pm
by redhayesy » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:26 pm
big al wrote:I have intended for the last few days to come on here and add to the post I made last week before travelling to the Sunderland game. I needed a few days to analyse it all so here's my take.
I usually don't know where I'll end up when I go to Anfield, I just take the tickets where I can. So I was very lucky last week to find myself smack bang in the centre of the kop. The last time I was there in the KOP, I was standing, which strangely enough is what I was doing this time.
My mate had been to the Wigan game and had been two other home games this season. Rafa is not his cup of tea at the moment. Although I have watched every game live on Satellite this year I beleieved that I would only get a true picture by watching them live. For me there was no better place to watch a game live than the Kop, you get more input than just the match. The first thing that struck me was how much I Felt that I did not belong. These guys, mainly scallies, (please don't be offended) are the heart and soul of Liverpool FC. They stand watching their team with the ghosts of many generations of players and supporters around them. They are supporters in its truest sense, not like me and the foreign legions who are merely fans. The Koppites put us all to shame.
In recent years I have been seated all over the place amongst the muted foreign supporters who want to sing and chant but feel awkward because they either think they don't belong or don't know the songs anyway. For far too many its their first time having saved to fly in from Ireland, Germany, Norway,Spain ETC. This impact is that too many of those supporters at games are sitting watching stupified. My other mate was in the Anfield road end, A Scouser stood up shouting and cursing those around him to have a bit of F*****g pride in the team needless to say they did'nt many could even speak english ( That's the scousers). I don't need to go on you guys all know this, no real affinity no real relationship very few no anything at all about football. My first ever game at Anfield many years ago I was an Irish guest among an army of Scousers. Now its the other way around. I feel really guilty about it but I also know that my three or four visits a year are actually contributing to the citys economy.
So my first point is, before we blame the players we need to look at ourselves and in particular those of us who are part-time supporters[I]
Moving on to the football. I was gob smacked by how badly the basic fundmentals were missing. You don't see on TV the lack of pass and move. It is on this very bedrock of pass and move that Liverpool dominated English football in the 70s and 80s. This was Shankly's,Paisleys and Fagans mantra. We were playing this way in the early part of the season, I was there at the Derby Co game in September I saw the movement, the working for each other, the desire to get on the ball and to give options to your team mates. I also saw conviction and belief, confidence, passion. The first half against Sunderland was the worst team preformance I have ever seen at Anfield in terms of all the above. No one look interested and were just going through the motions. I could not help thinking these guys have given up on the league and don't have any pride themselves. Rafa has apparently tried desparetly to raise their morale, their drive and their commitment but if the players have given up and no longer are loving their football the manager is in trouble.
Therefore my second point is before we blame the manager we must look at the players, they seem to be suffering from shared depression and need to shake themselves out of it.
Next we most look at the tactics seemed a usual Rafa selection except that is for Lucas and Skrtel. What were you thinking Rafa to make such a bizarre and strange selection. Surely your not just rotating for the sake of rotating. Carragher is Rafa's best defender yet he choose to take him out off center half and play him at right back. ( if anyone here says we don't have any other cover in that area because of Finnans toothache, go for it, your just be making my point that not having anyone else is a terrible indictment of one of the worlds biggest clubs) then there was young Lucas who had not got a clue about were he was playing. I initially thought that Rafa was over analysising ( a quality of his) and thought that Keane would set out a physical and tough five man mid-field. But then I decide that he could'nt be that niave, yet I was still left with the feeling that its merely about giving everyone a game now in case you need them later. Well the fact is, as JBG has more or less said. Rafa worrys too much about the future instead of concentrating on the present. The journey dosent begin by thinking about step two or step forty two it begins with step one. Rafa's rotation system is the cause of all the palyers lack of confidence, lack of movement, they cant read each other and therefore dont have that almost telepathic understanding that winning clubs have. In addition they lack leadership on the pitch are too accepting of decisions not going there way and in no way whatsoever look like a team that would kick their granny to win a game. Top teams find it impossible to accept 50/50s going against them they are so hungry and want to win so much that the harrangue the ref so that the next time he thinks twice. The Mancs are so successful at this that there has been one penalty awarded at Oldtrafford in 10 years. Talk about winning mentality.
Therefore this belief comes from the manager, its his job to raise the morale and confidence of players man management is knowing who needs an arm around the shoulder and who needs a kick up the rear end, one size does not fit all.
So my third point is before we start blaming the players we must look at the manager.
Everyone needs a buffer someone who takes some of the pressure off you to allow you to cope with the job, someone you can complain to, who is skilled enough to be supportive and yet keep you on track. Rafa should be finding that in his boss Rick Parry. Parry is the man who should have been acting as a go between in terms of gaining the resources for Rafa to continue developing the team. Parry has failed miserably at this. He has been conspicuous by his absence. Look at what happened at Arsenal and David Dein, the daily telegraph at the time reported that he had lost his job because "Dein was accused of acting improperly by protecting Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger" Seems to be no fear of Rick Parry doing that as he runs of for secret meetings with his American pay masters. He has finally complained this week about too many people washing their dirty laundry in public, a statement he made at the time he was discussing the fans protest after the Sunderland game although some think he's talking about the owners. ( I don't think so, otherwise why wait so long and why fly to secret meetings in the US, He knew about the KLINGSMAN saga, I'll bet my life on it)The hypocrisy of the man is just too much. The fact is that his job is about assisting and supporting Rafa do his Job. If Rafa goes that will be the fourth manager appointed and sacked under his stewardship, the time to ask questions about Parry are long overdue. So my fourth point is before we blame the manager we must look at the Cheif excutive officer
After the match on Sunday I found myself in the midst of the Koppites protesting against the owners. I was uncomfortable because I'm not sure that they really deserve all the credit for the current state of the club. I stood there initially lost, until a woman with specs tapped me on the back and urged me to join in. Even though I was/am uncertain about who to blame I joined in because it seemed the right thing, I enjoyed being part of the protest by real fans who know and live so much more of the club than I do. At the end of the protest my hands were sore yet I understood the true fans a little bit more. As I walked away I could'nt help feeling sadness, because I knew that something was wrong. Something I could'nt put my finger on. The Mancs have had yanks buying there club and putting it into debt, yet that has been forgotten about by all but a few, they are up there still winning the premiership, buying good players who like Ronaldo are becoming the best in the world. So although the Hicks and Gillett have been eroneous they should not make that much difference to the actual football.
No matter how hard I try I keep coming back to the one thing and its this:
The history of the club has created a false expectation, we are looking back and all we are doing is being blinded by their greatness. Greatness that is acheived by the real heart and soul of every great team. Namely the manager. Owners, directors, players and supporters come and go and many of them we celebrate but none of them are as important as those giants who brought us hope and glory, who filled us with pride, belief and passion. The great managers created their own legends they are more than just people we hope can lead. They lead us in blind faith. So we look back at Bill Shankly and his boot room, Bob Paisley and Smokin Joe Fagan and believe me, our faith in them was like the rocks beneath your feet. I want so much to add Rafael Benitez to that list and believe in him. But If I am honest with all of you and with myself I must say that I don't believe in him, I have no faith him and I think that's because his tactics and his leadership of his team gives them little chance to believe in him. I watch the fans and they dont really believe, I watch the players and the dont really believe. Forget Parry, Moores, Gillett and Hicks. Because in the end if the fans (Be honest with yourself, please!) dont really believe and the players dont really believe then we will spent 18 more years as a club with a history instead of a club with a present and a future[U]
by Igor Zidane » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:54 pm
big al wrote:I have intended for the last few days to come on here and add to the post I made last week before travelling to the Sunderland game. I needed a few days to analyse it all so here's my take.
I usually don't know where I'll end up when I go to Anfield, I just take the tickets where I can. So I was very lucky last week to find myself smack bang in the centre of the kop. The last time I was there in the KOP, I was standing, which strangely enough is what I was doing this time.
My mate had been to the Wigan game and had been two other home games this season. Rafa is not his cup of tea at the moment. Although I have watched every game live on Satellite this year I beleieved that I would only get a true picture by watching them live. For me there was no better place to watch a game live than the Kop, you get more input than just the match. The first thing that struck me was how much I Felt that I did not belong. These guys, mainly scallies, (please don't be offended) are the heart and soul of Liverpool FC. They stand watching their team with the ghosts of many generations of players and supporters around them. They are supporters in its truest sense, not like me and the foreign legions who are merely fans. The Koppites put us all to shame.
In recent years I have been seated all over the place amongst the muted foreign supporters who want to sing and chant but feel awkward because they either think they don't belong or don't know the songs anyway. For far too many its their first time having saved to fly in from Ireland, Germany, Norway,Spain ETC. This impact is that too many of those supporters at games are sitting watching stupified. My other mate was in the Anfield road end, A Scouser stood up shouting and cursing those around him to have a bit of F*****g pride in the team needless to say they did'nt many could even speak english ( That's the scousers). I don't need to go on you guys all know this, no real affinity no real relationship very few no anything at all about football. My first ever game at Anfield many years ago I was an Irish guest among an army of Scousers. Now its the other way around. I feel really guilty about it but I also know that my three or four visits a year are actually contributing to the citys economy.
So my first point is, before we blame the players we need to look at ourselves and in particular those of us who are part-time supporters[I]
Moving on to the football. I was gob smacked by how badly the basic fundmentals were missing. You don't see on TV the lack of pass and move. It is on this very bedrock of pass and move that Liverpool dominated English football in the 70s and 80s. This was Shankly's,Paisleys and Fagans mantra. We were playing this way in the early part of the season, I was there at the Derby Co game in September I saw the movement, the working for each other, the desire to get on the ball and to give options to your team mates. I also saw conviction and belief, confidence, passion. The first half against Sunderland was the worst team preformance I have ever seen at Anfield in terms of all the above. No one look interested and were just going through the motions. I could not help thinking these guys have given up on the league and don't have any pride themselves. Rafa has apparently tried desparetly to raise their morale, their drive and their commitment but if the players have given up and no longer are loving their football the manager is in trouble.
Therefore my second point is before we blame the manager we must look at the players, they seem to be suffering from shared depression and need to shake themselves out of it.
Next we most look at the tactics seemed a usual Rafa selection except that is for Lucas and Skrtel. What were you thinking Rafa to make such a bizarre and strange selection. Surely your not just rotating for the sake of rotating. Carragher is Rafa's best defender yet he choose to take him out off center half and play him at right back. ( if anyone here says we don't have any other cover in that area because of Finnans toothache, go for it, your just be making my point that not having anyone else is a terrible indictment of one of the worlds biggest clubs) then there was young Lucas who had not got a clue about were he was playing. I initially thought that Rafa was over analysising ( a quality of his) and thought that Keane would set out a physical and tough five man mid-field. But then I decide that he could'nt be that niave, yet I was still left with the feeling that its merely about giving everyone a game now in case you need them later. Well the fact is, as JBG has more or less said. Rafa worrys too much about the future instead of concentrating on the present. The journey dosent begin by thinking about step two or step forty two it begins with step one. Rafa's rotation system is the cause of all the palyers lack of confidence, lack of movement, they cant read each other and therefore dont have that almost telepathic understanding that winning clubs have. In addition they lack leadership on the pitch are too accepting of decisions not going there way and in no way whatsoever look like a team that would kick their granny to win a game. Top teams find it impossible to accept 50/50s going against them they are so hungry and want to win so much that the harrangue the ref so that the next time he thinks twice. The Mancs are so successful at this that there has been one penalty awarded at Oldtrafford in 10 years. Talk about winning mentality.
Therefore this belief comes from the manager, its his job to raise the morale and confidence of players man management is knowing who needs an arm around the shoulder and who needs a kick up the rear end, one size does not fit all.
So my third point is before we start blaming the players we must look at the manager.
Everyone needs a buffer someone who takes some of the pressure off you to allow you to cope with the job, someone you can complain to, who is skilled enough to be supportive and yet keep you on track. Rafa should be finding that in his boss Rick Parry. Parry is the man who should have been acting as a go between in terms of gaining the resources for Rafa to continue developing the team. Parry has failed miserably at this. He has been conspicuous by his absence. Look at what happened at Arsenal and David Dein, the daily telegraph at the time reported that he had lost his job because "Dein was accused of acting improperly by protecting Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger" Seems to be no fear of Rick Parry doing that as he runs of for secret meetings with his American pay masters. He has finally complained this week about too many people washing their dirty laundry in public, a statement he made at the time he was discussing the fans protest after the Sunderland game although some think he's talking about the owners. ( I don't think so, otherwise why wait so long and why fly to secret meetings in the US, He knew about the KLINGSMAN saga, I'll bet my life on it)The hypocrisy of the man is just too much. The fact is that his job is about assisting and supporting Rafa do his Job. If Rafa goes that will be the fourth manager appointed and sacked under his stewardship, the time to ask questions about Parry are long overdue. So my fourth point is before we blame the manager we must look at the Cheif excutive officer
After the match on Sunday I found myself in the midst of the Koppites protesting against the owners. I was uncomfortable because I'm not sure that they really deserve all the credit for the current state of the club. I stood there initially lost, until a woman with specs tapped me on the back and urged me to join in. Even though I was/am uncertain about who to blame I joined in because it seemed the right thing, I enjoyed being part of the protest by real fans who know and live so much more of the club than I do. At the end of the protest my hands were sore yet I understood the true fans a little bit more. As I walked away I could'nt help feeling sadness, because I knew that something was wrong. Something I could'nt put my finger on. The Mancs have had yanks buying there club and putting it into debt, yet that has been forgotten about by all but a few, they are up there still winning the premiership, buying good players who like Ronaldo are becoming the best in the world. So although the Hicks and Gillett have been eroneous they should not make that much difference to the actual football.
No matter how hard I try I keep coming back to the one thing and its this:
The history of the club has created a false expectation, we are looking back and all we are doing is being blinded by their greatness. Greatness that is acheived by the real heart and soul of every great team. Namely the manager. Owners, directors, players and supporters come and go and many of them we celebrate but none of them are as important as those giants who brought us hope and glory, who filled us with pride, belief and passion. The great managers created their own legends they are more than just people we hope can lead. They lead us in blind faith. So we look back at Bill Shankly and his boot room, Bob Paisley and Smokin Joe Fagan and believe me, our faith in them was like the rocks beneath your feet. I want so much to add Rafael Benitez to that list and believe in him. But If I am honest with all of you and with myself I must say that I don't believe in him, I have no faith him and I think that's because his tactics and his leadership of his team gives them little chance to believe in him. I watch the fans and they dont really believe, I watch the players and the dont really believe. Forget Parry, Moores, Gillett and Hicks. Because in the end if the fans (Be honest with yourself, please!) dont really believe and the players dont really believe then we will spent 18 more years as a club with a history instead of a club with a present and a future[U]
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