Liverpool FC Forum

[Redman in wales]

LucasLeiva87    If I play tomorrow I will reach 100th games for Liverpool in the Premier League. Great achievement .


   awesome!

[Zidane]

I'd argue that he is at least as good as Masch was and could be better than him in the future, on current form he is at least as good as Masch.  I'm sure I'll get stick for that comment no doubt but for me it's what I believe.  Masch had a style that was easy to love but it was hardly more effective than what Lucas has been doing these past two seasons.  For example Darren Bent, to some the price paid for him was unbelievable but when you look at him his strike rate is one of the best in the Prem.  People seem to forgive Masch for all the fouls he commited for some reason but scrutinize Lucas to no end when they're both asked to do the same role.  Masch was guaranteed a yellow in about 75% of the games he played in, only then would he stop giving away needless fouls.  I've said it before no matter how much this guy does for us he will always be picked as a scapegoat strictly because of his unattractive style of play although it is very effective.  Same as Kuyt, for all the goals, assist and hard work he puts in he is criticized heavily as soon as his form goes astray because of the way he plays, it's an ugly but effective style.  Masch plateaued when he was with us and seems to not be given enough playing time at Barca to make himself an even better footballer, I think his lack of playing time is going to hinder his career down the road.  His best is behind him imo and Lucas is still just getting started.

Oh, and Masch only scored twice for us in all his time here.  Lucas scored 5 in that time period playing less.. just sayin.

[red till i die!!]

agree and disagree.
masch is/was the best in the business at what he does,he was an animal at breaking up play and feroicious in the tackle,had plenty of speed and was quick to turn opposition attacks in our favour.
lucas doesent suit that role for a number of reasons and shouldnt be compared to masch.i was very critical of lucas for years and its only been this season imo that he has begun to turn it around for himself.the arrival of merieles and the partnership between them was a starting point and under kenny he has shown real promise and potential for the future.

oh and lucas has at least 60 odd more games than masch and only 2 more goals as masch had 3

[redhayesy]

Stolen from another forum



Lucas is running our midfield.

Don't laugh. Every time I hear about him and those wonderful opta statistics he's always made more successful tackles than any other midfielder and has the best passing success rate in the entire team. Furthermore, looking at him, he's the one taking the ball of the back 4 and distributing it further forward, linking the whole team together. Isn't that running the midfield?

He obviously doesn't have anywhere the technical ability of Alonso or Xavi, but he's developed a composure and purpose about his positioning and passing. He's the go to guy when we want to keep posession. Gerrard, Maxi or Meireles run out of space? They slide it back to Lucas to start over again because he's making himself available. For the goal yesterday he popped the ball around with the back 3 for about 15 passes before releasing Kelly, who in turn released Gerrard. Looks simple but it's good midfield play and a lot of players and teams don't do that. We didn't under Hodgson, we never took more than 4 or 5 passes around the back before panic-passing it in the general direction of N'Gog or Torres.

Why is there still a doubt about him in some quarters?

Because he commits fouls? Shock horror, a defensive midfielder fouls someone. Patrick Vieira holds the record for the most red cards in the Premier League, and whilst not a pure holding midfielder, he was tasked with the bulk of the ball winning in the Arsenal midfield. He commited fouls. So did Keane. Mascherano commited fouls. Sissoko commited fouls. Even Hamann and Alonso, players you'd associate with neat steals rather than crunching 'ball and man' efforts, commited fouls. I'm not saying Lucas is as good as the Kaiser, as a matter of fact, I'm certain he isn't, but that the Kaiser gave away a few freekicks doesn't make people think he wasn't good enough. Lucas just looks clumsier doing it, but they all commit fouls. It's part of the position.

What else? He can't hit 'Alonso passes'? Do you know what one of Alonso's best strengths is? Knowing when not to play the Alonso pass. Knowing when it was too difficult to execute or simply wasn't needed. As a matter of fact, at most, 1 pass in every 10 he made was the 40+ yard crossfielder. Probably even less than that. Most of his passes were the boring old <15 yards along the ground efforts. Because that's what keeps you in possession. Plenty of players can hit 'Alonso passes' but aren't considered one of the best playmakers about. Gerrard's a great example of this, he has just as much ability to play a long pass as Alonso, but for every 40 yard wonderball that sent little Mikey away during the peak of Houllier's tenure, Gerrard turned the ball over to the opposition at least 5 times by trying it when it was just simply too difficult to take out the defender with the pass but still let Owen get on the end of it.
You don't need to hit the 'Alonso pass' to be a good at using the ball in midfield. If you can, then great, it's what seperates a great playmaker, like Alonso or Xavi, from just a good one, like Lucas. But it's not essential.

Last possible thing I can think of against him is that he gets a bit of help from Gerrard, Meireles and now with the back 3, Agger. Hamann got help from Murphy, Gerrard and McAllister. Alonso got help from Gerrard or Mascher, or even Sissoko before his eye injury. Again, Lucas is neither Hamann or Alonso, but no one ever said they weren't good enough because they had other good players around them, so it shouldn't be said about Lucas either.

He's grown into the role big time this season. It's possible he'll undermine me by playing badly for the rest of the season, but I expect him to remain quietly effective. This doesn't mean we don't need another midfielder come the summer - quite simply we do, since Spearing and Poulsen aren't good enough and Shelvey is unproven. But it doesn't mean Lucas should be sold or consigned to permanent duty on the substitutes bench.

Spot On

it's all about opinions mate! thats what it boils down to-not that some people think that post is spot on etc. cause i for one may have been been one of his biggest critics in the past-& i will be in the future no doubt- why? cause it's about opinions.

i can pick that post to pieces,cause for me to start with he is running our midfield- is he?- for one i'm not laughing straight away. to even mention him in the same breath as Alonso is a fecking joke that really isn't funny! why? cause Alonso was,is & always will be in a different class to Lucas. if you want to bring real facts & figures into this-please don't it would be embarassing for Lucas- look at goals scored for starters-look at goals created for second-look at real midfield contribution in passing-not just sideways etc. that's thet one put to bed for me.


as for taking the ball off the back four-& distributing the ball futher foward is another question i'd beg to differ- for me it's more like slowing the play down & passing it sideways & giving the responsibility to someone else to go foward with it. so again that for me isn't running the midfield.

FWIW- i don't think he should be made a scapegoat,like he has been made in the past-but untill he gets consistancy under his belt -that will always happen,i for one will agree on that because the midfield is the engine room of the side & that takes alround ability in every quarter-not just being a 'steady eddy' etc- lots of teams have them- thats why the likes of Alonso are a massive loss to the side. cause for me Lucas is a 'steady eddy' thats all.- i want more than that.

finally as for the he commits fouls? actually that is a massive part of his play you cannot ignore! please don't ignore the fact he has been in the side long enough now to know that his stupid,timless tackles does put the team under pressure for the fact of where he gives them away- he panics to much for me which is another show of self doubt & inconsistancy. also to make comparasenes with the likes of other midfield set ups is Laughable! - didi hamann didn't GET help from the likes of Murphy,gerrard or gary mac!- he was a very good alround midfield player,who displayed & played well whoever was in the team-that is what Lucas needs to aspire too-whoever plays-untill then he will always be critised-like many before him have had!

gary mac will never be in this catorgory!

Are you an idiot? Can you not know see it with your own eyes or has your hate Lucas/hate/mongering totally affected your point of view. I bet for the past couple of years you've been at the fore-front of Lucas bashing and are now finding it difficult to swallow those embittered words. Get real. Your words are beyond belief

don't try an patronise me! unlike you,i'm glad others on here have read my post an agreed it's all about opinions end of! don't ever reply to me like that -by childish attempts at insults etc it has no place on this forum end of!

FWIW- after suporting LFC for over 30 years-i will take an educated guess-iv'e been to more games home,away & abroad than youv'e had hot dinners! so i'm entitled to my opinion on players past an present weather you like it or not! (now that's what you call patronising) see it's not nice is it. so in future please think before you post-cause i'm not blind & that is an insult that deserves an appology. an idiot -well that is somthing i will ignore from you -but to suggest anything else goes beyond having an inteligent conversation with you,because you think i'm blind & my words are beyond belief!

finally just to remind you again this forum is all about opinions! if you don't like what i post fine, i accept everyone has different views on different players,but don't ever reply to me in that way again as that is personal. at any point in my post towards Lucas did i become personal towards him -NO. so don't do it to me.

[Thommo's perm]

Had Lucas been from England people would worship the ground he was walking on.

[tubby]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

[Thommo's perm]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

He passes the ball forward at times but so does Messi. Not comparing him with Messi but just saying it happens.

[Kenny Kan]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

He passes the ball forward at times but so does Messi. Not comparing him with Messi but just saying it happens.

[tubby]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

He passes the ball forward at times but so does Messi. Not comparing him with Messi but just saying it happens.

He also probably takes a at least once a day which I happen to do also. Shall I start comparing myself with Leo Messi now?  Just saying.

Point is he is improving at a rapid rate and he has gone from being barely good enough to be a squad member to on the cusp of an important 1st team member.

[Thommo's perm]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

He passes the ball forward at times but so does Messi. Not comparing him with Messi but just saying it happens.

He also probably takes a at least once a day which I happen to do also. Shall I start comparing myself with Leo Messi now?  Just saying.

Point is he is improving at a rapid rate and he has gone from being barely good enough to be a squad member to on the cusp of an important 1st team member.

Ive heard Messi goes twice a day


I get it mate and Im starting to agree

[Kenny Kan]

He makes silly tackles at times but so does Paul Scholes. Not comparing him with Scholes but just saying it happens. But Lucas offers a lot to the team and he is proving his worth week in week out.

He passes the ball forward at times but so does Messi. Not comparing him with Messi but just saying it happens.

He also probably takes a at least once a day which I happen to do also. Shall I start comparing myself with Leo Messi now?  Just saying.

Point is he is improving at a rapid rate and he has gone from being barely good enough to be a squad member to on the cusp of an important 1st team member.

Apart from reading about your bowel movements, your opinion is fair enough re Lucas at the mo.

However, I feel he only looks the part when his teamates are on fire. If one or two have a dip in form around him he seems to lose his composure and control. If he was able to stand out a bit and hold things together with more presence on the pitch it'd be worth blowing bubbles up his a.rse.

Having said that with Merieles now in midfield there seems to be a better balance in our midfield as the Portuguese fella poses a genuine threat from midfield. This is complimenting Lucas's game as the onus to get forward and help contribute to scoring goals isn't on him as much as perhaps it was when he played alongside Mascherano.

[jimmy brighton]

Stolen from another forum



Lucas is running our midfield.

Don't laugh. Every time I hear about him and those wonderful opta statistics he's always made more successful tackles than any other midfielder and has the best passing success rate in the entire team. Furthermore, looking at him, he's the one taking the ball of the back 4 and distributing it further forward, linking the whole team together. Isn't that running the midfield?

He obviously doesn't have anywhere the technical ability of Alonso or Xavi, but he's developed a composure and purpose about his positioning and passing. He's the go to guy when we want to keep posession. Gerrard, Maxi or Meireles run out of space? They slide it back to Lucas to start over again because he's making himself available. For the goal yesterday he popped the ball around with the back 3 for about 15 passes before releasing Kelly, who in turn released Gerrard. Looks simple but it's good midfield play and a lot of players and teams don't do that. We didn't under Hodgson, we never took more than 4 or 5 passes around the back before panic-passing it in the general direction of N'Gog or Torres.

Why is there still a doubt about him in some quarters?

Because he commits fouls? Shock horror, a defensive midfielder fouls someone. Patrick Vieira holds the record for the most red cards in the Premier League, and whilst not a pure holding midfielder, he was tasked with the bulk of the ball winning in the Arsenal midfield. He commited fouls. So did Keane. Mascherano commited fouls. Sissoko commited fouls. Even Hamann and Alonso, players you'd associate with neat steals rather than crunching 'ball and man' efforts, commited fouls. I'm not saying Lucas is as good as the Kaiser, as a matter of fact, I'm certain he isn't, but that the Kaiser gave away a few freekicks doesn't make people think he wasn't good enough. Lucas just looks clumsier doing it, but they all commit fouls. It's part of the position.

What else? He can't hit 'Alonso passes'? Do you know what one of Alonso's best strengths is? Knowing when not to play the Alonso pass. Knowing when it was too difficult to execute or simply wasn't needed. As a matter of fact, at most, 1 pass in every 10 he made was the 40+ yard crossfielder. Probably even less than that. Most of his passes were the boring old <15 yards along the ground efforts. Because that's what keeps you in possession. Plenty of players can hit 'Alonso passes' but aren't considered one of the best playmakers about. Gerrard's a great example of this, he has just as much ability to play a long pass as Alonso, but for every 40 yard wonderball that sent little Mikey away during the peak of Houllier's tenure, Gerrard turned the ball over to the opposition at least 5 times by trying it when it was just simply too difficult to take out the defender with the pass but still let Owen get on the end of it.
You don't need to hit the 'Alonso pass' to be a good at using the ball in midfield. If you can, then great, it's what seperates a great playmaker, like Alonso or Xavi, from just a good one, like Lucas. But it's not essential.

Last possible thing I can think of against him is that he gets a bit of help from Gerrard, Meireles and now with the back 3, Agger. Hamann got help from Murphy, Gerrard and McAllister. Alonso got help from Gerrard or Mascher, or even Sissoko before his eye injury. Again, Lucas is neither Hamann or Alonso, but no one ever said they weren't good enough because they had other good players around them, so it shouldn't be said about Lucas either.

He's grown into the role big time this season. It's possible he'll undermine me by playing badly for the rest of the season, but I expect him to remain quietly effective. This doesn't mean we don't need another midfielder come the summer - quite simply we do, since Spearing and Poulsen aren't good enough and Shelvey is unproven. But it doesn't mean Lucas should be sold or consigned to permanent duty on the substitutes bench.

Spot On

it's all about opinions mate! thats what it boils down to-not that some people think that post is spot on etc. cause i for one may have been been one of his biggest critics in the past-& i will be in the future no doubt- why? cause it's about opinions.

i can pick that post to pieces,cause for me to start with he is running our midfield- is he?- for one i'm not laughing straight away. to even mention him in the same breath as Alonso is a fecking joke that really isn't funny! why? cause Alonso was,is & always will be in a different class to Lucas. if you want to bring real facts & figures into this-please don't it would be embarassing for Lucas- look at goals scored for starters-look at goals created for second-look at real midfield contribution in passing-not just sideways etc. that's thet one put to bed for me.


as for taking the ball off the back four-& distributing the ball futher foward is another question i'd beg to differ- for me it's more like slowing the play down & passing it sideways & giving the responsibility to someone else to go foward with it. so again that for me isn't running the midfield.

FWIW- i don't think he should be made a scapegoat,like he has been made in the past-but untill he gets consistancy under his belt -that will always happen,i for one will agree on that because the midfield is the engine room of the side & that takes alround ability in every quarter-not just being a 'steady eddy' etc- lots of teams have them- thats why the likes of Alonso are a massive loss to the side. cause for me Lucas is a 'steady eddy' thats all.- i want more than that.

finally as for the he commits fouls? actually that is a massive part of his play you cannot ignore! please don't ignore the fact he has been in the side long enough now to know that his stupid,timless tackles does put the team under pressure for the fact of where he gives them away- he panics to much for me which is another show of self doubt & inconsistancy. also to make comparasenes with the likes of other midfield set ups is Laughable! - didi hamann didn't GET help from the likes of Murphy,gerrard or gary mac!- he was a very good alround midfield player,who displayed & played well whoever was in the team-that is what Lucas needs to aspire too-whoever plays-untill then he will always be critised-like many before him have had!

gary mac will never be in this catorgory!

Are you an idiot? Can you not know see it with your own eyes or has your hate Lucas/hate/mongering totally affected your point of view. I bet for the past couple of years you've been at the fore-front of Lucas bashing and are now finding it difficult to swallow those embittered words. Get real. Your words are beyond belief

don't try an patronise me! unlike you,i'm glad others on here have read my post an agreed it's all about opinions end of! don't ever reply to me like that -by childish attempts at insults etc it has no place on this forum end of!

FWIW- after suporting LFC for over 30 years-i will take an educated guess-iv'e been to more games home,away & abroad than youv'e had hot dinners! so i'm entitled to my opinion on players past an present weather you like it or not! (now that's what you call patronising) see it's not nice is it. so in future please think before you post-cause i'm not blind & that is an insult that deserves an appology. an idiot -well that is somthing i will ignore from you -but to suggest anything else goes beyond having an inteligent conversation with you,because you think i'm blind & my words are beyond belief!

finally just to remind you again this forum is all about opinions! if you don't like what i post fine, i accept everyone has different views on different players,but don't ever reply to me in that way again as that is personal. at any point in my post towards Lucas did i become personal towards him -NO. so don't do it to me.

redhayesy, I do apologise for the flippancy of my remarks. I think it was the bevy I was having at the time!! Wasn't meant to be taken so personally but reading back I understand. I just get annoyed with the total lack of respect of what Lucas brings to our game. HE DOMINATES MIDFIELD. I know you may have been to lands afar following the mighty reds but as a 46 year old man who was born in Liverpool, I have been to a fair few games myself.
Two years ago a scouse(red) friend of mine was slagging Lucas so much that even then I was prepared to stand and fight about it. Now, 2 years down the line and when the boy is putting in exceptional performances week in week out, I am still listening to to the same (although somewhat diluted) vitriol of a man who's going to become(I believe) a Liverpool legend. You know, I've heard this story many times before and you just get bored with it.

[Redman in wales]

woah dudes russion doll alert

[jimmy brighton]

[Thommo's perm]

How did he play today?
My link kept going down