Liverpool FC Forum

[JC_81]

People can delude themselves as much as they like, whether the subject matter is Kuyt, Lucas, N'Gog, the manager, Skrtel or whoever else, the fact remains we are not winning many football matches for fairly obvious reasons. Yes it's true to say it would be unfair to lump all the blame or all the reasons onto one thing, but there are contributary factors which you don't need a coaching badge to spot.

As far as Lucas is concerned, he's a tidy enough kind of player but the partnertship with him and Masherano offers precisely zero from a creative viewpoint. On Saturday he quite literally went whole segments of the game without getting a touch of the ball, even his trademark five yards square passes were noticeable by their absence. Meanwhile Man City had De Jong who was dfoing the Masherano role very ably, Barry who despite looking only half fit was prompting with efficiency, and Ireland who I thought was absolutely excellent on the day, probably the best player on view from either team.

If you have a central midfield duo who never score a goal and never make a goal then you are up against it. If they also as they did on Saturday in Lucas's case go to sleep and allow one of the opposition midfielders to run past them and score, then you have a mountain to climb. We desperately need Aquilani to get fit and stay fit, and it would be a great help if he's quite good as well.

Agree with you there Mick.

Lucas had a poor game on Saturday, but imo that's on the back of several improved performances.  I still don't think he's good enough to be a first choice midfielder for us, and certainly pairing him up with Mascherano doesn't get the best out of either of them.

Lucas is a strange one.  Usually Rafa is pretty ruthless even with his own signings, in that if they don't produce he'll ship them out again fairly quickly.  Lucas seems to be an exception in that it's been obvious for a while he's not quite up to it, yet he starts every week.

I'd still move Gerrard back and pair him with Mascherano.  I don't think this advanced role is getting the best out of Gerrard these days either - the team is so dysfunctional that he's hardly getting on the ball, might as well move him back and kill two birds with one stone.

[Zidane]

I may be alone in this but personally I think Lucas will be good enough to start for us but when you have him and Masch together they struggle to make each other better.  It isn't a good partnership for us in most games.

[Kerry07]

The problem with lucas is the devastating impact he has on the rest of the team. Its why hes ridiculed outside the club. Our form has nosedived since hes been in the team and has been at the heart of 1 win in 10...as the solitary change from last seasons 84 points, hes the #1 reason the performance the rest of the players (ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER) has dropped considerably because of the huge negative impact lucas has on the team in the most important central position on the field...

Reina - Golden gloves 3 outta 4 seasons, concedes for fun now. Why??? Because shots reign in on him more this season than any since hes been here as there aint the protection infront of him anymore. Hes simply far busier. (17 SHOTS Lyon had at Anfield)

Back 4 - Our previously rock solid defense (its the same group as last few years) are getting torn apart regularly. Why??? Same reason why the back 4 in Istanbul got destroyed in the 1st half.. there is NO solidity infront of them in midfield that prevents crosses reigning in, through balls being played, shots from distance, far more corners conceded. A defence can do NOTHING if the central midfield is loose and has no control. Firstly Lucas never drops deep to demand the ball of the defence (as Alonso did) so they have to hoof it, which gives the ball straight back to the opposition hence they get more of the ball, more chances. Secondly Lucas doesnt have any composure on the ball and will make his customary short pass and then hide behind an opponent thus putting a team mate (usually Masch) in trouble with no one to pass to... we then lose possession, again no control of midfield. Our team possession stats have plummeted this year..we lose midfield on a regular basis.

Midfield... Masch (as mentioned above), Masch suffers as the ball winner he has no playmaker to give the ball to, so very often he finds himself in a cul de sac and isolated (last year Alonso would have always been open and available to him) while lucas is hidden behind an opponent. I recall in P.E players like lucas, who would literally avoid making themselve open as they knew their limitations and didnt want any responsibility as they'd get hammered by repeatedly screwing up. Classic avoidance (tbf its Ray Houghton who 1st spotted this with lucas)

Wingers... Reira, Kuyt..and whoever else - they dont get the service as (unlike Alonso) lucas doesnt have any range of passing, so they have to come back deep and get it, so greater demands on them, farther out so more required.

Gerrard... the biggest crime of all lucas devastating effects. Gerrard now finds himself for the 1st time in 5 years having to come back deep as theres zero service to him. The Bolton match was a notable example where we were dreadful, losing, creating nothing, until Gerrard came back and done it himself and made long cross for Kuyt who flicked on to Torres who equalized. Then because Bolton went down to 10 Gerrard could then get into the box and scored the winner. Look at Gerrards giant leap in goal stats from the moment Alonso signed (he never had to come deep thats why)... but now there aint the quality or service back there he has to, his goal tally will suffer.

Benayoun/Torres create things out of nothing, so are less handicapped by someone like lucas in the team.

When we can put a quality player beside Masch (hopefully Aquilani when hes fit is the man) then the team will pick up again, the others wont be dragged down anymore... and results will improve.

[Fauxy]

The problem with lucas is the devastating impact he has on the rest of the team. Its why hes ridiculed outside the club. Our form has nosedived since hes been in the team and has been at the heart of 1 win in 10...as the solitary change from last seasons 84 points, hes the #1 reason the performance the rest of the players (ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER) has dropped considerably because of the huge negative impact lucas has on the team in the most important central position on the field...

Reina - Golden gloves 3 outta 4 seasons, concedes for fun now. Why??? Because shots reign in on him more this season than any since hes been here as there aint the protection infront of him anymore. Hes simply far busier. (17 SHOTS Lyon had at Anfield)

Back 4 - Our previously rock solid defense (its the same group as last few years) are getting torn apart regularly. Why??? Same reason why the back 4 in Istanbul got destroyed in the 1st half.. there is NO solidity infront of them in midfield that prevents crosses reigning in, through balls being played, shots from distance, far more corners conceded. A defence can do NOTHING if the central midfield is loose and has no control. Firstly Lucas never drops deep to demand the ball of the defence (as Alonso did) so they have to hoof it, which gives the ball straight back to the opposition hence they get more of the ball, more chances. Secondly Lucas doesnt have any composure on the ball and will make his customary short pass and then hide behind an opponent thus putting a team mate (usually Masch) in trouble with no one to pass to... we then lose possession, again no control of midfield. Our team possession stats have plummeted this year..we lose midfield on a regular basis.

Midfield... Masch (as mentioned above), Masch suffers as the ball winner he has no playmaker to give the ball to, so very often he finds himself in a cul de sac and isolated (last year Alonso would have always been open and available to him) while lucas is hidden behind an opponent. I recall in P.E players like lucas, who would literally avoid making themselve open as they knew their limitations and didnt want any responsibility as they'd get hammered by repeatedly screwing up. Classic avoidance (tbf its Ray Houghton who 1st spotted this with lucas)

Wingers... Reira, Kuyt..and whoever else - they dont get the service as (unlike Alonso) lucas doesnt have any range of passing, so they have to come back deep and get it, so greater demands on them, farther out so more required.

Gerrard... the biggest crime of all lucas devastating effects. Gerrard now finds himself for the 1st time in 5 years having to come back deep as theres zero service to him. The Bolton match was a notable example where we were dreadful, losing, creating nothing, until Gerrard came back and done it himself and made long cross for Kuyt who flicked on to Torres who equalized. Then because Bolton went down to 10 Gerrard could then get into the box and scored the winner. Look at Gerrards giant leap in goal stats from the moment Alonso signed (he never had to come deep thats why)... but now there aint the quality or service back there he has to, his goal tally will suffer.

Benayoun/Torres create things out of nothing, so are less handicapped by someone like lucas in the team.

When we can put a quality player beside Masch (hopefully Aquilani when hes fit is the man) then the team will pick up again, the others wont be dragged down anymore... and results will improve.

Maybe a littttle over the top because I dont think one player can have that much of an impact as to send us into mid table, but I agree with the points you make.

Lucas is in a very big role though and I do feel sorry for him. He doesnt really have any major quality other than maybe strength and the ability to pass backwards or sideways.

Aquilani will have an instant impact on the team when he starts playing because there will be that person for the defence to pass to, who can then play the ball forward. Mascherano can then concentrate on protecting the back four rather than having to do the job that Lucas is supposed to do at the moment.

I can see Aquilani being a more box to box midfielder though, a bit like what Gerrard used to be. So not only will he be creating attacks, but getting forward and joining in.

Aquilani isnt going to stay fit for every game though. I would sell off Lucas and get somebody cheap that can pass the ball forward. I said it last year I will say it again, we should buy JAVI MARTINEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[supersub]

Lucas did not have a poor game on saturday........

[Fowler_E7]

was appaling AGAIN tonight, and has missed two sitters in two games. Aquilani is fit now so why the hell isnt he playing! Lucas isnt good enough and never ever will be, its hign time Rafa Benitez realised this and gave him the axe.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

[Fowler_E7]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

Defensive midfielder my backfoot, more like a missing midfielder. Lucas was signed as a box to box midfielder who scored and created goals as well as helping the defence out. He does neither of these for Liverpool, if he thinks sitting in front of the back 4 doing nothing all game is playing defensive midfield then he's gotta another thing coming. Its clear that he does have enough about him to offer the team anything other than a simple possesion keeper, the sooner Aquilani gets in the better.

[heimdall]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

Is your judgement of Aquaman based on the 30 seconds he got today, what the hell was that about from Rafa?? Actually none of the subs made any sense at all, even Gary Mac was speachless

[Simari]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

Is your judgement of Aquaman based on the 30 seconds he got today, what the hell was that about from Rafa?? Actually none of the subs made any sense at all, even Gary Mac was speachless

He played in the 2-2 draw with Birmingham at home, for about 10-15 minutes.

He's shown enough in that short period to indicate that he definitely has a slick passing game, one that is based on creating attacking options.

Obviously, it takes a lot more games to determine if he can be consistently good - but in the short time that he has been on the pitch, I definitely have faith in his ability to make us a better attacking unit.

[heimdall]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

Is your judgement of Aquaman based on the 30 seconds he got today, what the hell was that about from Rafa?? Actually none of the subs made any sense at all, even Gary Mac was speachless

He played in the 2-2 draw with Birmingham at home, for about 10-15 minutes.

He's shown enough in that short period to indicate that he definitely has a slick passing game, one that is based on creating attacking options.

Obviously, it takes a lot more games to determine if he can be consistently good - but in the short time that he has been on the pitch, I definitely have faith in his ability to make us a better attacking unit.

he has played enough for any of us to have a solid opinion yet, having said that maybe just maybe Rafa will leave Lucas out of the team for the Bitters match, no what am I saying Kuyt and Lucas are the first two names on the team sheet aren't they because they are part of a very strong squad according to Rafa   

Oh and I also loved the way Stevie G said we played really well in beating Debrechan 1-0 a team who Lyon and Fiorentina p1ssed all over whilst we have managed 1-0 wins. Maybe my standards are too high these days.

[killerp]

Lucus is now a defensive midfielder like Mascherano and is actually having a better season than the Argentinean. Both have been playing well recently but both are playing as out and out defensive midfielders which is why we look so dire going foward. We need to get Aquilani into the side to up the tempo of our attacks. He looks a slick pass and move player.

Is your judgement of Aquaman based on the 30 seconds he got today, what the hell was that about from Rafa?? Actually none of the subs made any sense at all, even Gary Mac was speachless

He played in the 2-2 draw with Birmingham at home, for about 10-15 minutes.

He's shown enough in that short period to indicate that he definitely has a slick passing game, one that is based on creating attacking options.

Obviously, it takes a lot more games to determine if he can be consistently good - but in the short time that he has been on the pitch, I definitely have faith in his ability to make us a better attacking unit.

Aquilani will make Lucas look second rate & I think its back to the bench for him when the full debut eventually happens.

[Kerry07]

Can understand what everyone is saying... but it only takes one weak player in lucas (especially if that one player is situated in the most important position on the field inbetween defence and attack) to ruin the entire team and affect everyone.

For want of a better word... the COSYNESS that we had in midfield with the classy composed Alonso (who always made himself open for a pass) is gone, we now panic, misplace passes, less team mates are open (passing breaks down), dont dictate the flow of games (note how we are now conceding late goals on a regular basis -- this was alien to us in the previous 5 years, and the KEY to holding on to a lead is to retain possession.. which we no longer do).

Our team possession stats have plummeted this year..we lose midfield on a regular basis. The pivot of the team has gone, the deep sitting playmaker who sat in the edge of the midfield circle (in our half) and patrolled that area, giving assurance to the defence (constantly took the ball off them) then found the attackers with metronomic passing range... the LINK. This chain is now broken... and if the central point of the chain is broken the TEAM is f***ed, affects EVERYONE. Theres now no solidity infront of defence (think Istanbul 1st half).. as the midfield combo (passer & destroyer) is gone, no quick, incisive passes to wide men or advanced attackers. The BRAINS of our team is gone.. we are a rudderless ship and our play is incredibly LOOSE... i never feel confident going into games anymore because of this very fact. We have not played good football all season. Even in our 6 game winning run against pisspoor opponents (Burnley (H), Debrecen (H) - DIABOLICAL PERFORMANCE, West Ham (A), Leeds (LC), Hull (H), Bolton (A) - Again shocking and losing with 25 to go until they went down to 10) it papered over the cracks and i genuinely knew at the time.

We have lost EVERY single game against decent opposition (bar ManU) this season... and the sole reason we didnt lose to ManU was they were toothless in attack and did nothing with their 56% possession. There was no Ronaldo, no Tevez... this (in between our 1 win in 10) we beat a shadow version (still loved it mind) with graft, FANTASTIC home atmosphere, and Torres crucial intervention.

And before someone mentions that the anonymous lucas played at Old Toilet last year against ManU as a counter argument that he must have some ability, we beat them BYPASSING midfield (we had 45% possession stats) as we wisely played long ball --- Skrtel assist for 1st, Reina for 4th, two goals inbetween were one-twos between Gerrard and Torres(2nd)/Kuyt(3rd). "Won inspite not because of"... ie.Gary Ablett played in the 5-0 vs Forest in '88.

Yes prior to this season we have lost games over the past 5 years (not many) but RARELY (i can only name Chelsea at home last year when Alonso was cleverly doubled up on as Hiddink stopped us at source) have we been OUTCLASSED.. to the manner we were at Fiorentina this season for instance. We had no control in midfield so the ball relentlessly came back at the defence.. our defenders are trying their best to stop the dam from bursting, but when your central mid is pissweak and offers no protection, its impossible. Reina is busier than ever before

Lucas, the slow 2 yard side pass merchant, with no vision, no passing range, no tackling ability, and by god no composure, doesnt score, doesnt create (St James and Ngog at Anfield in 2 and a half years), makes customary short pass then hides behind an opponent and avoids a pass/responsibility... THIS gigantic downgrade, lucas for alonso, has been catastrophic.

We are loose folks.

We tolerate cr*p too often.. give people a chance too often. Either Gerrard comes back to partner Masch (play Yossi in the hole with Reira/Aurelio on the left) or Aquilani finally gets fit and partners Masch as was intended... either of these MUST happen or we simply wont finish 4th. Jesus... from 86 points, QF of the CL in 08/09... to being out of the CL in November and hoping we can scrape 4th.

Demand better

[shawnk]

I may be alone in this but personally I think Lucas will be good enough to start for us but when you have him and Masch together they struggle to make each other better.  It isn't a good partnership for us in most games.

If we dont have a choice, we should pick Mascherano at least he can tackle and chase after players on top of things that can be done by Lucas.

[Igor Zidane]

MoM TODAYY LAD , AWSOME LAD. FISRT TIME I'VE BEEN TO THAT SHITHOEL IN A WHILE ,ONLY HAAD ONE FIGHT TODAY .