Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

Defensively he was immaculate as usual but he also showed some lovely passing to his game last night.  The instinctive first time return ball to Finnan to send the Irishman free in the box was sublime and he had some lovely weight on a few diagonal balls out to the flanks.  The only time his passing let him down, IMO, were the couple of occasions where he looked for the quick ball over the top.  More often than not, they were too heavy and just ran out of play.

[ConnO'var]

Just watched the game..... the boy was absolutely immense..... MOM by a length at least.

For 18 million quid, he's a bargain when you compare to what Fergie paid for Carrick and Hargreaves..... Not to 'big' Mascherano up to much, but he's got to better than the two of them.... COMBINED.....

Sign him up FFS!.... It would be an absolute travesty if we let him slip through our fingers.

[ivor_the_injun]

Note also that Carrick's 26, Hargreaves is 27.

Mascha is 23. Can you imagine how good he's going to be in 3 or 4 years time?

[KOPMATT]

I think he has to be a MUST when it comes to signing! He is absolutely imense, awesome display again tuesday night IMO and for me MOM.

[Dundalk]

The man is a beast, immense again today.

He wants to stay, the fans want him to stay, rafa wants him to stay.

Get it sorted

[Scottbot]

HERE'S A VERY DIFFERENT TAKE ON OUR MIDFIELD ROTTWEILLER (taken from Sportingo)


Javier Mascherano: Is he a liability to Liverpool? (Gettyimages.com)Do the stats prove that the Argentinian midfielder's emphasis on defence is stifling attacking qualities at Anfield?

'The most compelling statistic is that West Ham and Liverpool have lost or drawn 19 of the 29 games played. That’s 65 per cent of Premier League games without a win'Liverpool have gone backwards as a creative force since Javier Mascherano arrived at Anfield, and some pretty compelling statistics back up this contention.

Mascherano is undoubtedly a fine defensive midfielder, but those who continually deify him and proclaim him to be the answer to Liverpool's problems need to acknowledge the reality of his impact.

It is only February, and Liverpool have already wracked up an astonishing 11 draws in the league. To put this in perspective, the club’s recent history should be considered. As such, below is a list of league draws by season for this decade:

2000-01 – 9 draws: 01-02 – 8 draws: 02-03 – 10 draws: 03-04 – 12 draws: 04-05 – 7 draws: 05-06 – 7 draws: 06-07 – 8 draws: 07-08 – 11 draws so far.

It is no surprise that in Gerard Houllier’s darkest days, the team were achieving a similar number of league draws. However, this was over a WHOLE season. Rafa’s team of 2008 have amassed 11 draws already, and there are still 13 league games to go. There will inevitably be more draws, and if it continues, Liverpool of 2008 could surpass Bob Paisley’s side of 1981, who drew 17 league games in one season. Incidentally, in 1981, Liverpool finished seventh in the league.

In Rafa’s first three years in charge, Liverpool averaged around seven drawn games each season. This season, that figure has jumped massively. The question is why? Javier Mascherano is why.

Mascherano offers nothing creatively, and the team effectively carry a passenger when attacking, as Mascherano just defends and does nothing else. Furthermore, the whole team are more defensive and cautious when he plays, as the following figures prove:

Premier League, 2007-08: Games 17 - Wins 6, Draws 9, Defeats 2.

Liverpool have failed to win 65 per cent of league games involving Mascherano this season. That’s 11 out of 17 games without a win.

All Competitions, 2007-08: Games 27 - Wins 13, Draws 11, Defeats 3.

In all competitions, Liverpool have failed to win 52 per cent of games involving Mascherano. That’s 14 out of 27 games without a win.

Premier League total - 24: Wins 10, Draws 12, Defeats 2.

Taking all of Mascherano’s Premier League appearances since arriving at Anfield into account, the figures are equally damning. Liverpool have failed to win 60 per cent of games. That’s 14 out of 24 Premier League games without a win.

Now consider West Ham's record with Mascherano: Games 5, Defeats 5. Is it any wonder West Ham wanted to get rid of him? He played five games and was on the losing side in all five, so his Premier League total (Liverpool + West Ham games) is: Games 29, Wins 10, Draws 12, Defeats 7.

The most compelling statistic is that West Ham and Liverpool have lost or drawn 19 of the 29 games played. That’s 65 per cent of Premier League games without a win.

It is no coincidence that as soon as Mascherano became a regular in the side, Liverpool started drawing lots of games. In his entire club career of over 60 games, Mascherano has NO GOALS and ONE measly assist. Without exception, teams that employ defensive midfielders like him always have excellent attacking options across the rest of midfield and up-front.

Prime examples include AC Milan (Gennaro Gattuso), Chelsea (Claude Makalele) and, most famously, Brazil (Dunga). Indeed, the same is true for the Argentine national team. When Mascherano plays, the rest of the midfield and forward players are genuinely creative and offer a major goal threat. In some ways, Mascherano is the right player in the wrong team.

Liverpool will "never" be a free-flowing creative force under Rafa Benitez, which is what is needed for Mascherano to be "necessary" for Liverpool. Unfortunately, as has been proved time and time again this season, Liverpool have desperately poor creative players, and those who ARE creative have their craft strangled out of them by the Benitez's tactics.

The sad truth is that Benitez has a depressingly cautious mentality, with the emphasis on not losing and a preference for defensive-minded players. Mascherano is symbolic of this, which is why he is the current midfield flavour of the month. Conversely, Xabi Alonso is the opposite of Mascherano, and represents flowing, creative, expansive football, i.e. EXACTLY what Liverpool FC should be about.

Such a style of play is, however, the antithesis of Benitez’s painfully dull Liverpool team, which is why Alonso will be forced out. Mascherano’s record so far in Premier League football says it all: Play him, and you will invariably fail to win the game. The figures above are testament to that sad fact. Ultimately, Benitez and Mascherano are a recipe for dull, footballing drudgery.

Mascherano plus a different, expansive manager who believes in creative, flowing football is a different proposition entirely. If Liverpool stick with Benitez then Mascherano needs to go. If Benitez leaves, then Mascherano should stay . . . should a the new manager fill the team with exciting, effective creative players.

[account deleted by request]

As usual they can make stats do everything but jump up and talk. Including games for West Ham ...... maybe to make the stats more damning perhaps?  Maybe we should look at Alonso's stats - played 14 - won 5 = 36% Suddenly Mascheranos stats don't look so bad - Played 29 - won 15 = 52%. So with Mascherano we win over half our games, with Alonso we only win just over a third of our games. Stats - wonderful things

[Scottbot]

As usual they can make stats do everything but jump up and talk. Including games for West Ham ...... maybe to make the stats more damning perhaps?  Maybe we should look at Alonso's stats - played 14 - won 5 = 36% Suddenly Mascheranos stats don't look so bad - Played 29 - won 15 = 52%. So with Mascherano we win over half our games, with Alonso we only win just over a third of our games. Stats - wonderful things

Agree on that mate, the stats are complete bollox HOWEVER, he does make a decent point towards the end of the article. The point about Dunga being the spoiler in a team full of creative players, the Makelele comparison isn't so good but Deshchamps (for France) would be a better example. I can't help agree that Masch would be more valuable and more effective (and more necessary to quote the article) if he was part of a set-up that was fully geared to attacking football. I'd say he's been our best player this season along with Torres and Gerrard and if we're playing against the likes of utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, one of the big guns from Europe or have a tough away day then he would ALWAYS be one of the first names on the teamsheet. BUT, at home to the likes of Birmingham, Wigan or Newcastle. Who would you rather have in your central-mid alongside Gerrard, an on-form Alonso or an an-form Masherano? I'd go with Alonso everytime. Masherano is showing more and more of his ball playing skills as the season goes on but I can't help but feel his qualities are lost on us during home games against the so called weaker teams.

[account deleted by request]

I think it may be a little early (for me anyway) to make that judgement. Once Agger is back maybe we will be able to see better how things are. At the moment I am more than happy that Masch is guarding our back four as they seem as shaky as I have seen them since the good old days of Phil Babb at present.

It also depends on what role Gerrard is given beside Alonso or Mascherano. When Mascherano plays, Gerrard seems to be allowed more freedom to go forward than when played alongside Alonso. It also relies on Alonso recapturing his old form - something he has been struggling to do for quite some time now.

At the moment I am happy with Masch being first choice with Gerrard, I am open to changing my mind if Alonso starts to play as we all know he can.

[Scottbot]

At the moment I am happy with Masch being first choice with Gerrard, I am open to changing my mind if Alonso starts to play as we all know he can.

Same here mate, he fully deserves his place in the side and i'm not disputing that + he showed (again) on Tuesday what a player he is. I'm just thinking (in the long-term) that we have it in us to be a REALLY ATTACKING side with such an outstanding player looking after business just in front of our back four.

[JoeTerp]

maybe we should try out 3 at the back with Masch AND Alonso backing them up. also to counter becoming too defensive could be to try a more diamond shaped midfield with Gerrard on the right and Kewell or Yossi  in front of the strikers

[account deleted by request]

At the moment I am happy with Masch being first choice with Gerrard, I am open to changing my mind if Alonso starts to play as we all know he can.

Same here mate, he fully deserves his place in the side and i'm not disputing that + he showed (again) on Tuesday what a player he is. I'm just thinking (in the long-term) that we have it in us to be a REALLY ATTACKING side with such an outstanding player looking after business just in front of our back four.

I think before we can become a more attacking side (which I thought we were early in the season btw) I think we need to sort out the defence. When Hyypia came in for Agger we went through a period where the defence looked unsure and shaky. Hyypia then settled back in after a few games and we started to look really confident at the back. Now for some reason we look worse than ever at the back, whether its loss of confidence or Carra's apparent loss of form or what, I am not sure. 

Hopefully once we get Agger back or Skrtel gets a few games under his belt we can build once more on a solid back line and become a little more adventurous going forward. Even against Inter when to be fair they offered little going forward, we still seemed almost at panic stations on the few occasions they did get forward.

BTW I agree with your assessment of Rafa and his attacking strategies in your other post.

[JC_81]

At the moment I am happy with Masch being first choice with Gerrard, I am open to changing my mind if Alonso starts to play as we all know he can.

Same here mate, he fully deserves his place in the side and i'm not disputing that + he showed (again) on Tuesday what a player he is. I'm just thinking (in the long-term) that we have it in us to be a REALLY ATTACKING side with such an outstanding player looking after business just in front of our back four.

I think before we can become a more attacking side (which I thought we were early in the season btw) I think we need to sort out the defence. When Hyypia came in for Agger we went through a period where the defence looked unsure and shaky. Hyypia then settled back in after a few games and we started to look really confident at the back. Now for some reason we look worse than ever at the back, whether its loss of confidence or Carra's apparent loss of form or what, I am not sure. 

Hopefully once we get Agger back or Skrtel gets a few games under his belt we can build once more on a solid back line and become a little more adventurous going forward. Even against Inter when to be fair they offered little going forward, we still seemed almost at panic stations on the few occasions they did get forward.

BTW I agree with your assessment of Rafa and his attacking strategies in your other post.

As good as Hyypia is (having just praised him in another thread), it definitely limits us as an attacking force with him in the side as it means we have to hold a deeper defensive line to compensate for his lack of pace.  Last season with Agger and Carra we were able to defend higher up the pitch.  I honestly think that as good as Hyypia has played this season, his inclusion is perhaps one of the reasons why we've drawn more games at Anfield rather than won them.

I think in Mascherano we potentially have the best defensive midfielder in the Premiership, and if he stays with us next season he'll prove that.  I suspect Gerrard prefers having Mascherano backing him up than he does Alonso, and given time it could be a really good partnership.

[bigmick]

I suspect Gerrard prefers having Mascherano backing him up than he does Alonso, and given time it could be a really good partnership.

I've absolutely no doubts that you are on the money here John. Sometime ago I made the point that I thought Gerrard and Masherano were more compatable as a pairing than Gerrard/Alonso, and after a funerially slow start (where both played utter sh!t to be totally honest) they are finally looking to get it together.

The only real way I can see Alonso dislodging the Argentine from the team (assuming we keep playing Gerrard centrally) is if he completely rediscovers his ability to control the pace of the game as he did in his first eighteen months. Whether or not he is going to be able to do that is another thing entirely, but in my opinion there is no question that currently Masherano is the best defensive midfield player in the Premiership, bar none.

[JC_81]

I suspect Gerrard prefers having Mascherano backing him up than he does Alonso, and given time it could be a really good partnership.

I've absolutely no doubts that you are on the money here John. Sometime ago I made the point that I thought Gerrard and Masherano were more compatable as a pairing than Gerrard/Alonso, and after a funerially slow start (where both played utter sh!t to be totally honest) they are finally looking to get it together.

The only real way I can see Alonso dislodging the Argentine from the team (assuming we keep playing Gerrard centrally) is if he completely rediscovers his ability to control the pace of the game as he did in his first eighteen months. Whether or not he is going to be able to do that is another thing entirely, but in my opinion there is no question that currently Masherano is the best defensive midfield player in the Premiership, bar none.

I think when fit Mick, Mascherano and Gerrard will play every big game for us from now until the end of the season.

Personally I'd give Alonso a few games sooner rather than later.  Hopefully we'll have some more massive champions league games coming up this season and for me the inclusion of a fit and sharp Alonso (even if not the Alonso of a few seasons ago), is a lot more reassuring than having Lucas in there (who although looks decent, doesn't have the guile or big game experience of Alonso).

I think that even if Alonso is heading out the exit door this summer, he can still be important for us in the champions league this season - like a few of our players that competition seems to bring out the best in him, and might just bump up his value if we do decide to sell.