Liverpool FC Forum

[JC_81]

Another concern I have is the amount of players we are bringing in and that Rafa may once again be trying to plug too many gaps. 

If this summer we had let Crouch and Riise go and signed Dossena/another left back, a replacement striker and one top quality winger, then I'd have been happy with our business.

As it goes we have already signed 3 for the first team squad, let go of 4 and seem to be spending a lot of time trying to essentially trade Alonso for Barry, without addressing the issues of a replacement striker and a quality winger.  By the time August comes, we could be looking at up to 6 new faces in the first team squad.  It's too many.  These guys then have to settle into the club and get used to the way we play.  It won't help our early season form, I can guarantee you that.

Compare that with our rivals - you won't see them buying in half a dozen new faces this summer.  It'll be 2 or 3 buys of quality.  Chelsea may sign more but they can be forgiven as it's a new manager with new ideas and may want some of his own players in.

Well if that does be the case its proof that Rafa is still obsessed with having a huge squad and will probably continue rotating players a lot more than needed.
Groundhog day 5!
And very likely 4th again!

4th wasn't good enough last season, and it won't be good enough this season, not for the owners and not for the fans.

Don't forget, the yanks won't forget last season and the bust up with Rafa.  They only need an excuse to get rid of him, and if the fans start turning against Rafa they'll sack him.  That's my take on it anyway.  Rafa needs to make sure he doesn't give them that excuse, by not fu.cking around with rotation too much, signing quality instead of quantity and getting a bit of luck in the big head-to-heads with our rivals in the league (which we haven't had in the past few seasons).

[LFC2007]

It's difficult to say really, few transfers have gone through at the top clubs.

We need the right quality as our squad doesn't have the balance that Chelsea, or the Manc's have. Arsenal adopt a different philosophy altogether, making it difficult to predict how they'll end up. A lot depends on who they sign/promote to replace Flamini, and possibly Hleb and/or Adebayor.

If the Manc's were to lose Ronaldo, they'd probably go out and spend a sizeable packet on another top quality player anyway, and Nani will have had his first season under his belt - perhaps assuming some of the burden left by him. I'd like to see him go though as the net result would just about benefit us I think. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening this summer as the Manc's seem unmovable in their stance.

Chelsea, I can't imagine, with the resources they have, being anywhere other than in with a shout of winning the league. If they lose Lampard, it remains to be seen whether Deco/Ballack/Essien can fill the void.

As for us, I'd like to see a system that is broadly adhered to, and if we manage to get the right quality in, they'll probably play in most games.

There remains plenty of unfinished business this transfer window, and any future activity will shed further light on our chances of winning the league, in relation to our rivals.

[metalhead]

I have to agree with LFC2007.

Also, even if Manchester United lose Ronaldo they still have Tevez and Rooney who are quality players that can score goals.

Its true, its hard to predict Arsenal, time will tell about their youngsters and new signings.

I wouldn't be worried about our stance, I think we will get the players we want that would add quality to the team

[The Manhattan Project]

Man U will be rock solid. Don't let the likely sale of Greaseface deceive you.

Chelsea will also be strong as usual. I don't see anyone breaking into the Man U/Chelsea top two.


Arsenal may struggle, if they lose Ad-a-bad-odour, but we'll be competing with them for 3rd/4th.

We'll have to keep up our form consistently though, because Everscum, Aston David Villa and Portsmouth Pirates will be on our tails.

[Owzat]

I'll be worried about the teams below us when they're spending £30m+ on players and that hasn't happened - yet. villa fans blow a lot of hot air saying they don't need our money, well I'd be worried by their signings and lack of. They won't pay decent money for Carson, they are so small time. spudz may lose as good a player as they've signed and if the height of Newcastle ambition extends to Guthrie then I laugh at their 'challenge'. Apart from Modric, who has signed for a smaller club that seems more like a signing associated with a big club?

So basically we're still comfortably ahead of the sides below us last season, in terms of squad strength. We should really have finished above Arsenal so the main concern is catching up the mancs and Chelski. The mancs haven't signed anyone yet, the only worry is we're hardly signing the players that would worry them. Chelski are an unknown quantity with the change of manager, as with Mourinho taking over from Ranieri you shouldn't expect the same.

But as I've said before, we should be concentrating on winning the points against sides we should be beating. 32 games a season are against said sides, then the only concern is getting the 27+ wins we need to win the title and last season we managed no win over the top three in the league so it may have to be winning 27/32 which is some ask. Until the smaller clubs start signing two or three Modric's I won't be worried about them.

[LegBarnes]

I'll be worried about the teams below us when they're spending £30m+ on players and that hasn't happened - yet. villa fans blow a lot of hot air saying they don't need our money, well I'd be worried by their signings and lack of. They won't pay decent money for Carson, they are so small time. spudz may lose as good a player as they've signed and if the height of Newcastle ambition extends to Guthrie then I laugh at their 'challenge'. Apart from Modric, who has signed for a smaller club that seems more like a signing associated with a big club?

So basically we're still comfortably ahead of the sides below us last season, in terms of squad strength. We should really have finished above Arsenal so the main concern is catching up the mancs and Chelski. The mancs haven't signed anyone yet, the only worry is we're hardly signing the players that would worry them. Chelski are an unknown quantity with the change of manager, as with Mourinho taking over from Ranieri you shouldn't expect the same.

But as I've said before, we should be concentrating on winning the points against sides we should be beating. 32 games a season are against said sides, then the only concern is getting the 27+ wins we need to win the title and last season we managed no win over the top three in the league so it may have to be winning 27/32 which is some ask. Until the smaller clubs start signing two or three Modric's I won't be worried about them.

I don't worrie about others teams they gonna do what they gonna do , Rafa cant control that he just gotta get his game plan right this season what ever it is simple as that.

We need to when more head to heads be nice but if we win all the other games apart from head to heads we can win title i think dropping points of bottom and mid table teams should be biggest no no this season.

[Bad Bob]

United look like nailed on Champions once again to me, as they have the best players. I'm of the opinion that they only made it interesting last season with Fergie experimenting with his own version of styling

It was though the results at pompey away, followed by Birminham at home which put our title aspirations to bed. It wasn't that they were desperately bad results, (though the Brum one in particular was a bit of a let down) it was the manner, the message we sent out in the way we approached the game. Once you demonstrate to the players and to everyone else that you are willing to sacrifice points then you are conceding the title. I think in our heart of hearts, once those two results had been chalked up we knew it was all over for another year. I suppose looking on the bright side it was better than the previous season where it was practically all over for us after three or four games. Some of us even feared the worst after one game, Sheffield United Away and the odd selection there.

With the greatest respect, Mick, it's these kinds of comments that make it seem like you're more than a little obsessed with rotation.  While you've made some excellent points down the years as the great rotation debate has rumbled on--and have gone a long way to convincing me that your point, on the whole, is sound--you also seem to blow the issue out of all proportion at times.  This, IMO, would be one of those times and so I'd like to comment at some length about the quotes I've highlighted above.  Apologies to John Craig if this deviates from the topic somewhat--the last thing we need is another rotation thread but it made sense to respond to Mick's points in the thread he posted them in.

To start, you've mentioned this belief that Ferguson nearly "styled" himself out of the title a few times now so I decided to have a look.  I assume the period of concern was in April, when the Mancs drew away to Boro and Blackburn, before losing to Chelsea and allowing them back into the title race?  It would have to be that April period you're alluding to, since they're league record was perfect in May, March and the 2nd half of February.  So, April it is, when the Mancs managed only one league win (albeit against Arsenal!) while racking up the previously mentioned draws and losses. 

Now, when you look at the teamsheets for those matches, a couple of things stand out.  The first is that there were some reshuffles due to injuries.  Vidic, in particular, was fighting a series of injuries in that time, while Van Der Sar, Rooney and Evra also picked up some knocks that kept them out of a match or two.  So, nothing to do with rotation, per se, there.  The second is more relevant to the rotation discussion because Fergie did swap things around in light of the 4 CL matches against Roma and Barcelona in April.  Interestingly, though, he played arguably his strongest possible side against both Boro and Blackburn and still drew (Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Giggs, Carrick, Ferdinand, Evra and Brown all played in both matches).  The only demonstrably weaker side he fielded in April was for the Chelsea game, which is interesting in light of your second quote above and I'll get to that in a minute.  But, as important as that match was, I don't think his line-up changes for that one occasion means that Fergie "styled" himself into trouble down the stretch.  With strong teams fielded, the Mancs still drew a few games they should have won and allowed Chelsea to peg them back.  That's not rotation, that's just football in the ultra-competitive Premier League these days, IMO.  So, I don't buy the notion that the Mancs' minor blip down the stretch was down to rotation.

Now, back to that particular teamsheet against Chelsea (for the record, it was: VDS, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Silvestre [Evra injured, I believe], Fletcher, Carrick, Nani, Anderson, Giggs and Rooney).  Obviously to leave the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez and Hargreaves on the bench (Scholes didn't even make the bench) was to field a weakened team.  And, there's no question the stakes were the highest they could possibly be: Chelsea's 2-1 win saw them draw level on points with the Mancs with two matches to go.  So what was Ferguson thinking?  Well, obviously he had one eye on the CL.  Three days prior, they had gone to the Nou Camp, spurned an early penalty (Ronaldo! ) and then been largely over-run for 90 minutes by a creative yet ultimately toothless Barca.  Four days after the match at Stamford Bridge, they faced the return leg at Old Trafford with a trip to Moscow at stake.  So, Ferguson clearly gambled that some of his squad players could help eek out at least a point against Chelsea while resting his big guns for Barca.  So, the next time people get all arsey about Rafa's priorities when balancing league and CL matches, they might do well to remember that Ferguson apparently commits the same cardinal sin.

But, at last (for those still reading), this brings me to your second quote above, Mick.  This is certainly not the first time that you've pointed to the Portsmouth and Brum matches as the turning point this season.  Fair enough, you like to call things early ( ) and that period in latish September was the moment you felt that Rafa's "styling" was going to (indeed already had) derailed us again.  I disagree to a certain extent--particularly with the idea that the team selections in those games demonstrated that Rafa was "willing to sacrifice points"--but that's a debate we've already had (probably several times over by now!).  What I want to highlight this time is your notion that: "Once you demonstrate to the players and to everyone else that you are willing to sacrifice points then you are conceding the title."  Well,  that seems to be exactly what Ferguson did at the Bridge and yet they still went on to win their last two games and hold off Chelsea for the title.  Indeed, I think it would be a lot more difficult to mentally bounce back from such a significant momentum shift in the title race in late April than it would be in late September.  Or do the Man U players just have a much more resilient mentality than our lads, who you think were ready to pack it in after a couple of draws 6 games into the season?  Judging by the way the lads managed to salvage a creditable season after the boardroom shenanigans got played out in public, I think they did have the mental ability to bounce back from a couple of disappointing draws in September and so, once again, I find myself disagreeing with you about just how much damage those two particular draws did to our title challenge last season.

[SupitsJonF]

Manchester signings looks pretty solid, and if Aguero goes there I think they will have a pretty scary team.

Chelsea, lets hope more players leave.  Some aren't really replaceable. 

Arsenal, doesn't look like anything special but you never know.

Portsmouth, Crouch is scoring away (Anfield), lets hope we can still convert it into a win.

Our singings are ok, Barry/Silva would be nice.

[heimdall]

On paper we are the third strongest team/squad, so lets hope we can excel and do even better than that. If everything clicks into place and we play as well as we are capable of doing then who knows what can happen. MY main ambition though is for us to at least beat the other top three at home next season! If Man Utd do the double over us again I don't know what I'll do.   

[LFC2007]

Great post, BB.

[Bad Bob]

Back to the topic of our rivals, I think that we're facing a real stern test to break into the top 2 this season, even if there is considerable player turn-over at Chelsea and, to a lesser extent, Man U.  Sure, Scolari might shake things up but I still expect them to be a strong outfit.  If the Mancs lose Ronaldo they will have a challenge replacing his goals but they have the depth to cope.  Arsenal's the wild card, as always.  I think Mick's right that they over-performed last year.  Repeating that might be a real challenge with some key players heading for (or already through) the exit door.  But, you can't rule them out.  I suspect we'll be battling with them for third come May but I hope that we push the leaders a lot harder this campaign.

[JC_81]

St Mike has mentioned how the loss of Queiroz may be a significant blow to United.  I hadn't considered this in my initial post to be honest, but he is right.  United did have a bit of a dip in fortunes the last time he left, as did we when Pako Ayesteran left.  A good number two is important and the loss of one can impact on the players' performances.

I still think their squad is by some distance the best in the league though, even without Ronaldo.

I didn't expect many to agree with me on saying that all things considered (current squads, new managers and reported comings and goings) I'd rather be in our position than Chelsea or Arsenal, but I'll stand by that.

I dismissed Arsenal early last season saying they'd fade, that they lacked experience and a decent keeper.  I was proved wrong for most of the season, but eventually it did happen and they collapsed.  I do agree with Mick too, they did overperform last season.  I'm not saying I'm dismissing them again this season, but I don't think they can win the league.

I think we'll finish above Arsenal and if Benitez can get the best out of our players and get a couple of new players in we can finish above Chelsea, there's not much between ourselves and them imo.  It will be tough to reel in United though, and much may depend on the head-to-heads.  We can't afford to lose both again.  Don't forget if we'd done the double over them instead of the reverse last season we'd have finished above them, our record against the other teams was actually better.  So you never know.

[bigmick]

Bad Bobs is an excellent post and his digging into some of my claims and beliefs has highlighted one or two of them as being utter b0ll0cks. Fair enough  (about time someone did it).

To take them as they come and at least put up a wee bit of a fight.

"Obsessed with rotation"? Guilty as charged I'm afraid as I think it's been the single most significant factor in our (IMHO) finishing positions relative to the eventual Champions under Rafa's tenure. I'm just so keen for him to give the team a chance I've become a bit obsessed, (well probably quite a lot) sorry 

As for the Fergie styling bit, I did get the impression that there was a bit more of the shuffling/resting/rotating/styling going on towards the end of the season. I was at the time being assured by all and sundry that "forget about Rafa rotating mate, what about Fergie? he rotates the team all the time and nobody mentions it when he does it". If that stance has subsequently been proven to be tosh by your research Bob, and there are infact no weapons of mass destruction in Fergies selection record, then best I leave that one there (he says as he steps over a pile of rubble that used to be a factory). I do recall him playing a silly team at Bolton and losing earlier in the season which kind of got me onto it, it was almost as if he had bought into the delayed gazelle as Ronaldo watched his team lose 1-0 whilst saving himself for a game six months later. Anyhow like I say, if it's official that Fergie doesn't style it like Rafa then I'm happy to stand corrected, (obviously leaving out the Chelsea selection).

As for the "conceding points" bit, to understand that you really need to share my views (obsession if you like) about "Rafa style". It's not about the players being mentally strong enough, it's more about them getting a "here we go again" feeling about the way it's panning out. I don't profess to know what the likes of Gerrard and Carragher think of the styling, but I have detected subtle hints that they think it's overdone on occasions. Once we'd gone to Pompey and played the team which we did, and gone back home to Brum and played the team that we did, it was fairly obvious the way we were going to play it, and by definition (if you share my opinion on rotation) we were doomed from then on. I mentioned the Sheffield United away game the previous season for the same reason, once we had approached that game in the way that we did with the team which we did, it was pretty much all over rover. Funnily enough when we subsequently lost four more away matches on the bounce, people said that it was ridiculous that we had to play all our hardest matches at the start of the season which was true. What was equally true though, was that we knew the fixture list well in advance and styling it up in our first match was ridiculous. Some of us even said so at the time but needless to say just copped a tonne of flak.

Seriously though mate, a good post and I've been well and truly put in my place. Just before you close the lid on the box though, I will say this (although it will sound a bit muffled as the lid goes down ) if we style it up in the very first game of the season coming up and don't get a result at Sunderland away, character or not Carragher and Gerrard will be thinking "here we go again" and we'll be already on our way out of it.

[SupitsJonF]

I don't really consider Portsmouth a rival, but no one else has that weird feeling Crouch is scoring at Anfield?  If this is the season were really making a challenge, a home game to pompey is not a game we can come out with less then 3 points with.

[Effes]

I cant see Robinho going to Chelsea being a great bit of business for Chelsea.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/footbal....ootball

Real Madrid were last night considering a bid which sources at the Bernabéu claim is worth €60m (£48m) for the Brazilian playmaker Robinho after the Chelsea chief executive, Peter Kenyon, called Madrid's sporting director, Predrag Mijatovic, to increase a €40 offer first tabled last Friday. However, the La Liga champions are reluctant to lose the 24-year-old Brazilian while their capture of Manchester United's Cristiano Ronaldo remains uncertain. Robinho, meanwhile, is determined to move to Stamford Bridge in order to work with their new coach Luiz Felipe Scolari.