Liverpool FC Forum

[76-1174245250]

The reality of the situation at the moment is there's no Owen or Gerrard. In years gone by, half the team would have a good chance of making it to the first team, but the way things are now I doubt any will become regulars. I don't reckon Carra would have come through if things were like they are now when he was 18. It's really tough these days.

Look at the calibre of players the young lads are competing with for a first team spot. Someone like Ajdarevic looks promising and could be very good in a few years, but he'd have to get past Alonso, Gerrard, Momo and Mascherano to get in our midfield. Spearing and Threlfall are both really good too, but it's hard enough for them to get a game for the reserves.

It doesn't help that the ressies league is so sh#te and so small either. Something has to be done about that, and if it were up to me I'd enter us into another league so there are more games for the young lads. Rafa was talking about this the other day but realistically, it'll never happen.

I disagree with you mate. Completely disagree with you.

The academy is poorly run and they miss out on to many of the best players. Threlfall and Jay Spearing are nowhere near the required standard. It also doesn't help when you have people in there like Benitez and Houllier who's judge of a player is distinctly average.

However on the other side of the coin, Steven Gerrard's cousin Anthony is not far off Steven as a footballer (a long way as an athlete) and he's now struggling at Wallsall.

Ben Parsanage has played with us a couple of times on a Thursday night as has Joey Barton. Ben plays for the Liverpool youth side and you can see a mile off he's a good player, but the difference is immense. Its not an age thing, its just an ability thing pure and simple. The probelm is the attitude and the overall quality. Its all well and good being able to do a few things well, Traore made a career out of it. But the fact is alot of these aren't good enough to make the grade and the ones that are slip through the net. Alot of managers are completely scared of playing unknown players without reason.

Nugent, Nolan, Barton and McEveley to name a few.

[puroresu]

I think the sooner people can be honest with themselves then the arguments will stop.  The idea that we only need 2 wingers and 1 striker is absurd.  We need far more than that if we want to win the championship.  Utd will buy in the summer as will chelsea as will Arsenal. We need to sign 5 players minimum but they have to be genuine quality. Last season i think honestly it has to be said that the signings made have not made the desired impact and this summer we need to sign better players if we want to really compete.  Its easy to say Rafa hasnt had a huge amount of money but neither has Wenger yet his still found gems.  The money spent on crouch, Pennant, Bellamy and Kuyt could of been used to sign better than we got.

[76-1174245250]

I think the sooner people can be honest with themselves then the arguments will stop.  The idea that we only need 2 wingers and 1 striker is absurd.  We need far more than that if we want to win the championship.  Utd will buy in the summer as will chelsea as will Arsenal. We need to sign 5 players minimum but they have to be genuine quality. Last season i think honestly it has to be said that the signings made have not made the desired impact and this summer we need to sign better players if we want to really compete.  Its easy to say Rafa hasnt had a huge amount of money but neither has Wenger yet his still found gems.  The money spent on crouch, Pennant, Bellamy and Kuyt could of been used to sign better than we got.

To be fair I want to agree with you.

I'm not sure on the Pennant part. But the fact you actually believed Sissy was half decent completely clouds my judgement of you and your posts.

[Bad Bob]

Hiya Stu...can always tell when you're back as the footie chat threads suddenly move to the top of the New Posts page.

I've been reading what you've had to say with interest and one thing strikes me in your posts: an underlying frustration with Rafa.  You'll tell me, I'm sure, if I've misread your views on Rafa but that discontent just seems to be there simmering beneath the surface of your posts.  So, I'm curious--how do you feel about Benitez?  Does he have what it takes, in your opinion, to lead us forward or do you feel he's hit the wall in the league?  Put another way, will he sign the players you think we need this summer and will he organize the team in the right way to have us challenging for the title next year? 

[76-1174245250]

Hiya Stu...can always tell when you're back as the footie chat threads suddenly move to the top of the New Posts page.

I've been reading what you've had to say with interest and one thing strikes me in your posts: an underlying frustration with Rafa.  You'll tell me, I'm sure, if I've misread your views on Rafa but that discontent just seems to be there simmering beneath the surface of your posts.  So, I'm curious--how do you feel about Benitez?  Does he have what it takes, in your opinion, to lead us forward or do you feel he's hit the wall in the league?  Put another way, will he sign the players you think we need this summer and will he organize the team in the right way to have us challenging for the title next year? 

Absoloutely 100% spot on. To be honest, you're one of the reasons I still read the boards when I was banned as you tend to speak alot of sense and have a sense of realism. I'm not arse kissing by the way. I'm not that sort and I'm not the sort that gets into little cliques... or even "cleeks" as craig da toxteth iron used to say, the one who'd flatten you if you said anything bad... always used to go outside to let some steam off... you know who i mean?

Sorry... to the point...

Rafa... I'm very quickly losing patience and seeing another Houllier situation. Where as with Houllier, I saw the job he done in rebuilding a pathetic side taking them very close then undoing it with poor signings and missing out on the right players, with Rafa i'm seeing him do the same.

Only this time I'm asking the questions.

How you justify £7,000,000 on Crouch instead of £7,250,000 on Ashton? Better player alround, better quality, better goalscorer, can do the same job but better and with more quality. Now at the time Crouch helped us become a better side. And I can live with that. But to me he's nothing more than a squad player. Ashton is good enough to play in the first team everyweek.

He also signed Kuyt for £9,500,000. Ashton again, was cheaper and a better player alround. Kuyt is a good player. But the maximum I'd pay for him would be £7,000,000 if i was desperate. Effectively £17,000,000 on two... AT VERY BEST squad players? I'd even go as far to say as Morientes was as good as Kuyt. But the boo boys who only watch match of the day or the highlights wouldn't have that.

Last season he went out and signed Fowler, which was a masterstroke. Much like Houllier's McAllister signing. Fowler came in and scored goals. He also improved the side. He helped take us to a level that at the end of the season looked very promising. This season he's hardly played at all. He's scored 7 goals in 8 starts and 11 sub appearances. Thats 1 less than Bellamy and if i'm not mistaken 3 less than Kuyt?

Last season I saw a side that needed a striker better than Morientes but similar and a central midfield better than Sissoko, maybe a Jermaine Pennant to give us the option of playing Gerrard in the middle.

We went out this summer and signed Pennant and Aurelio who I believe to be good enough. I think Bellamy was a good addition aswell. But Gonzalez is simply rubbish and Kuyt for me is no more than a squad player.

Now, last seasons team for me with Pennant in for Sissoko and Bellamy in for Morientes would have been very very interesting for me and one I could have seen being good enough to win the league.

Now I see a side that DESPERATELY NEEDS at least one top class striker (two if I'm honest) Due to Robbie seeming to be out the door. Yet we've gone and signed Voronin? Why? Career best total of 12 goals in a season? 

I also see a side that DESPERATELY NEEDS a centre half to partner Carragher as Agger is simply not as good as the people on this board want to think he is and I also see a side that NEEDS a left winger. Harry Kewell I feel is good enough, but its weather he can stay fit. This season has made me lose confidence in him.

Benitez signings quite frankly have been poor to average at best.

Alonso and Reina the only two that have made the impact.
Fowler would have if had been used. Morientes should have but was used incorrectly. I forgot Luis Garcia who was a good signing.

Aurelio, Pennant, Sissoko, Mascherano, Carson, Agger, Bellamy are all good additions to the SQUAD not the first team. Kuyt was a good addition but over priced as was Crouch.

The signings of Josemi, Kromkamp, Nunez (although I don't totally blame him for this) were simply not good enough.

All in all. 6 Transfer windows into his reign and our best foward. Was here in 1993. Our first and thrid best midfield players (Gerrard and Kewell) were already here and the whole of our strongest back four were here aswell.

The squad is stronger... are you telling me that the first 11 is stronger now than Houllier's when we finished second?

My patience is wearing incredibley thin with Benitez. This summer and the season coming is clearly the defining one.

[Big Niall]

We need a proven PREMIERSHIP striker who scores hundreds of premiership goals. One who has experience but is still fairly young (mid 20s) - maybe one who is with an underachieving club. Maybe one who is fresh from a couple of years of being inactive. A striker who has starred in world cups, a striker who can finish. If he is familiar with LFC and maybe owns property ther then all the better.

Who 

[wrighty (not mark!)]

Let me guess Michael 'i sold the club down the river' Owen

[66-1112520797]

Most of the people on here are probably right in the signings we need, like a winger or two and some more creativity upfront and goals of course.

But the one major thing we do need next season as much as players is basically for Rafa to put what seems to be the simple things to us right. I think as we are with him TBH we wont win the Prem until he takes a completely different approach to things.

For instance, all these signings we're talking about. In hindsight once their in the squad and of course good enough. The team in theory should pick itself week in week out, but that doesnt happen with Rafa really does it? Has he learnt from the begining of this season I wonder, also small things like what seem to me like weird substitutions.

My main point that Rafa really needs to work on, for me personally. Is the teams creativeness in training. I was thinking this last night, and I reckon its easier to marshall and organise a defence or a team defensively. Hell Houllier had that down pat, its easier for centerhalfs to mark a player, its easier for defenders to communicate to eachother and keep a structured line at the back and so ...

I think its harder for a manager to add to the players abilities to create openings and be attack minded, and this is where I think Rafa struggles. He likes his team to score more than rely on one or two forwards, and this approach hasnt really worked out for us. TBH the team is almost in like a Houllier-esk kind of state, where we can defend but cant really create, attack and look devastating going forward, for me as well as the players brought in Rafa has to coach them right (obviously).

What are you laughing at you self opinionated t.wat ?

Mate you din half post some drivel lad, Jermaine Pennant one of the best right wingers in the world was it    You screamed that so loudly from the roof tops I dont think you deserve to ever get away with it.

Getacluelad 

)And your still harping on about Ashton, change the record lad)

[Bad Bob]

This summer and the season coming is clearly the defining one.

Agreed.  I'm still a firm believer in Benitez but I recognize he's reaching the first real watershed moment of his tenure this summer (unless of course we win the CL again, which will restore him to genius status in many people's minds).  It sounds like he'll have ample cash to spend, so if his next round of purchases flop, the pressure will well and truly be on.

I still feel, however, that we're only 3 signings away from having a proper go at the title: a top, top striker and two class wingers.

My rationale is this:

1) We are largely sorted defensively.  As much as you don't rate Agger, mate, he's doing the job.  He may not be "world class" but he's slotting in well, growing into the role and is becoming very reliable.  Given that Rafa's hallmark is a very organized team that defends as a unit, I don't think we need to be searching for and spending top dollar on a world class CB.  Having said that, if Woodgate's on offer the way Mascherano was, I'd support snapping him up.

2) We're also sorted in central midfield.  My preferred pairing would be Alonso and Gerrard, at this point, but there will still be plenty of matches where Mascherano and Sissoko will be needed.  We now have four quality CMs--giving us unparalleled strength in depth in a crucial area of the pitch.

3) This brings me to the wide positions, which are our glaring weaknesses at the moment.  To be fair, Pennant's shown flashes of quality but I think he's a squad player at best for us.  On the other flank, Kewell's good enough when fit but I doubt that he'll ever be fully fit again.  We might get a dozen more games out of him before his contract's up but he'll be on the treatment table the rest of the time.  In his absence, we currently have no one that comes close to filling his boots.  The best we can do, IMO, is alternate between Riise (for commitment and drive) and Garcia (for creativity).  In other words, we're thinnest on the flanks and could use some proper quality on both sides of the pitch.

4) Up top we really are lacking that instinctive, predatory goal scorer.  Fowler can still deliver when given the chance but clearly will not be given a proper look in so long as 2 of the other 3 are fit.  Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy are the epitome of graft but, as St. Mike suggested, if a half-chance fell to any of them in a big game, how confident would you be that they'd bury it?  The Voronin buy has me well annoyed, too, given that I'd consider him our 5th choice striker were he included in the current squad.  Rafa sorely needs to buy a striker who can turn a game with a moment of sublime skill.  Grafting for 90+ minutes is great in other areas of the pitch but we need someone up top who we can count on to put away the first decent chance that falls to them (kind of parallel to having a keeper who can do nothing all game and still come up with that big stop when called upon).

So, three astute buys and we're right in the thick of it, IMO.  Not that identifying the right targets, fighting off the inevitable competitors and securing the signatures is easy, mind, but that's a different conversation.

BTW, I recognize that it's natural to draw comparisons with the Mancs given that their the leaders and our major rivals.  Realistically, though, I think Rafa's style is much more comparable to Mourinho's approach at Chelsea--pragmatic.  Defensively I think we set out our stall in a similar way.  The difference is that they have the attacking quality to punish teams and we don't.

[76-1174245250]

Most of the people on here are probably right in the signings we need, like a winger or two and some more creativity upfront and goals of course.

But the one major thing we do need next season as much as players is basically for Rafa to put what seems to be the simple things to us right. I think as we are with him TBH we wont win the Prem until he takes a completely different approach to things.

For instance, all these signings we're talking about. In hindsight once their in the squad and of course good enough. The team in theory should pick itself week in week out, but that doesnt happen with Rafa really does it? Has he learnt from the begining of this season I wonder, also small things like what seem to me like weird substitutions.

My main point that Rafa really needs to work on, for me personally. Is the teams creativeness in training. I was thinking this last night, and I reckon its easier to marshall and organise a defence or a team defensively. Hell Houllier had that down pat, its easier for centerhalfs to mark a player, its easier for defenders to communicate to eachother and keep a structured line at the back and so ...

I think its harder for a manager to add to the players abilities to create openings and be attack minded, and this is where I think Rafa struggles. He likes his team to score more than rely on one or two forwards, and this approach hasnt really worked out for us. TBH the team is almost in like a Houllier-esk kind of state, where we can defend but cant really create, attack and look devastating going forward, for me as well as the players brought in Rafa has to coach them right (obviously).

What are you laughing at you self opinionated t.wat ?

Mate you din half post some drivel lad, Jermaine Pennant one of the best right wingers in the world was it    You screamed that so loudly from the roof tops I dont think you deserve to ever get away with it.

Getacluelad 

)And your still harping on about Ashton, change the record lad)

One of the clique starts with abuse... Rest to follow...

[76-1174245250]

This summer and the season coming is clearly the defining one.

Agreed.  I'm still a firm believer in Benitez but I recognize he's reaching the first real watershed moment of his tenure this summer (unless of course we win the CL again, which will restore him to genius status in many people's minds).  It sounds like he'll have ample cash to spend, so if his next round of purchases flop, the pressure will well and truly be on.

I still feel, however, that we're only 3 signings away from having a proper go at the title: a top, top striker and two class wingers.

My rationale is this:

1) We are largely sorted defensively.  As much as you don't rate Agger, mate, he's doing the job.  He may not be "world class" but he's slotting in well, growing into the role and is becoming very reliable.  Given that Rafa's hallmark is a very organized team that defends as a unit, I don't think we need to be searching for and spending top dollar on a world class CB.  Having said that, if Woodgate's on offer the way Mascherano was, I'd support snapping him up.

2) We're also sorted in central midfield.  My preferred pairing would be Alonso and Gerrard, at this point, but there will still be plenty of matches where Mascherano and Sissoko will be needed.  We now have four quality CMs--giving us unparalleled strength in depth in a crucial area of the pitch.

3) This brings me to the wide positions, which are our glaring weaknesses at the moment.  To be fair, Pennant's shown flashes of quality but I think he's a squad player at best for us.  On the other flank, Kewell's good enough when fit but I doubt that he'll ever be fully fit again.  We might get a dozen more games out of him before his contract's up but he'll be on the treatment table the rest of the time.  In his absence, we currently have no one that comes close to filling his boots.  The best we can do, IMO, is alternate between Riise (for commitment and drive) and Garcia (for creativity).  In other words, we're thinnest on the flanks and could use some proper quality on both sides of the pitch.

4) Up top we really are lacking that instinctive, predatory goal scorer.  Fowler can still deliver when given the chance but clearly will not be given a proper look in so long as 2 of the other 3 are fit.  Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy are the epitome of graft but, as St. Mike suggested, if a half-chance fell to any of them in a big game, how confident would you be that they'd bury it?  The Voronin buy has me well annoyed, too, given that I'd consider him our 5th choice striker were he included in the current squad.  Rafa sorely needs to buy a striker who can turn a game with a moment of sublime skill.  Grafting for 90+ minutes is great in other areas of the pitch but we need someone up top who we can count on to put away the first decent chance that falls to them (kind of parallel to having a keeper who can do nothing all game and still come up with that big stop when called upon).

So, three astute buys and we're right in the thick of it, IMO.  Not that identifying the right targets, fighting off the inevitable competitors and securing the signatures is easy, mind, but that's a different conversation.

BTW, I recognize that it's natural to draw comparisons with the Mancs given that their the leaders and our major rivals.  Realistically, though, I think Rafa's style is much more comparable to Mourinho's approach at Chelsea--pragmatic.  Defensively I think we set out our stall in a similar way.  The difference is that they have the attacking quality to punish teams and we don't.

Bob. My gripe is clear with Agger. Its not that I don't rate him. Its that I don't rate him... wait for it... As highly as others do. To many people have seen the lad play one or two decent games and made him to be something he's not. People see it as I'm slating him now and those same people will be giving it loads when I defend him next season when he gets found out.

The lad isn't as good as Hyypia and there are better out there who will improve the team as a whole. Carragher although not the best, is irrecplacable in the fact of what he does for the fans and the club as a whole. He represents the fans on the pitch and you see that in his performances. I just don't like people overhyping players and I can't stand idiots with red tinted specs. The Evertonians say "Kopites are " and on the most part I agree. Its embarrassing listening to people telling everyone how great such and such is and we have the new Vieira and we're the best team ever.

The simple fact is if Liverpool had Vieira instead of Sissoko we'd be pretty much unstoppable he's that good.


Woodgate would not cost the earth and as I said is for me the second best centre half in the league. To be fair theres not much in it between Toure, Gallas, Ferdinand and Woodgate.

2. I would be inclined to agree with.

3. The problem with Pennant has clearly been confidence. He's shown as you say flashes of absoloute class. The run for Fowlers goal against Galatasary, the through ball for Fowler against Reading, the cross for Bellamy's goal after the run against Newcastle, the cross against Villa at the weekend which Fowler attacks... Hang on a minute... Hmmm.... Maybe Pennant's not that bad, maybe like he's an odd peice of the jigsaw due to the strikers being completely the wrong kind of strikers to get the best out of him... Pennant delivers some excellent crosses and the lack of people (especially strikers) attacking them at times is criminal. Essentially do I think he's an out an out match winner... No i don't. Do I think I overated him slightly? Yes I do, as in his own half he can be sloppy. Something which I hadn't previously noticed. Do I think he's good enough for this club as a minimum as a squad player? Definately without a doubt.

Lets face it, If its not a game for him, theres always Luis Garcia or the Gerrard on the right option.

On the left its clear. Kewell's class. We need someone as good if not better. But he's a crock. Simple as and Gonzalez is an awful player.

The fact is this summer has to be an improvement of last season. I firmly believe if you could put the Liverpool of last season against the Liverpool of this season, last seasons team would give them a pasting and a bit of a lesson.

Last season I saw a quality side with serious potential given the right buys. This season I've seen us drop at least one level and at times look gutless and seriously lacking in idea's, spark and inspiration.

[ivor_the_injun]

It's definitely crunch time this summer, that's for sure.

Two half-baked theories I'd like to share with you:

1) Voronin has been signed predominantly as a cheap option for the left of midfield (much the role that Heskey did on the left for England). Obviously he has the versatility to play up front, but he isn't of the quality to register as one of the 4 specialist strikers we'll have in the squad.

2) Crouch or Bellamy will both leave in summer, Fowler won't, and next season our hierachy of strikers will read as follows:

*currently unspecified blockbusting striker*
Kuyt
Bellamy or Crouch
Fowler

I think Robbie's going to see a fair bit of action in the league now, to protect the other guys for the CL matches, and suddenly I'm not thinking that he's as earmarked for departure as many others do.

[76-1174245250]

It's definitely crunch time this summer, that's for sure.

Two half-baked theories I'd like to share with you:

1) Voronin has been signed predominantly as a cheap option for the left of midfield (much the role that Heskey did on the left for England). Obviously he has the versatility to play up front, but he isn't of the quality to register as one of the 4 specialist strikers we'll have in the squad.

2) Crouch or Bellamy will both leave in summer, Fowler won't, and next season our hierachy of strikers will read as follows:

*currently unspecified blockbusting striker*
Kuyt
Bellamy or Crouch
Fowler

I think Robbie's going to see a fair bit of action in the league now, to protect the other guys for the CL matches, and suddenly I'm not thinking that he's as earmarked for departure as many others do.

Ivor, I'd love that to be the case mate but the way he's been used this season suggests otherwise and quite strongly so.

Robbie for me is by a mile still our best striker, which is quite worrying as he's clearly not as good a player as he was in the mid ninties although still a very good player.

He proved it yet again the other day by being on the pitch for 10 minutes and looking more of a goal threat than Bellamy and Kuyt did all game. The other thing idiots don't appriciate is the movement to get across the defender and win the header. Mellberg is no slouch and not a bad player, so if he can do it against him he can do it against most.

Kuyt I'm not convinced with at all. He can finish but I doubt his ability to get the chances in this league and I don't think he offers enough in terms of pace, arial ability, power or the ability to play quick technical football on the edge of the box, you need to have one of those at least.

Bellamy for me is a good squad player.

[ivor_the_injun]

I'm as disappointed as you with the way Fowler's been, or more to the point the way he hasn't been, used this season. It's an odd one though - Rafa has gone on record as recently as last month saying that Robbie's the best finisher at the club, which does make me wonder if he rates him more than we think he does. It wasn't like Garcia was walking into the side every week before the injury, but I never thought for a second that he wasn't in the boss's plans.

Obviously, it may have been diplomacy on Rafa's part, but I can't help thinking that it's Crouch that's going to make way. There have been very obvious overtures to the press from him about not worrying about competition, so maybe it's him that's under threat.

And - less of an issue now than this time last season - but if you're selling a striker that's going to be fourth choice, you'd think you'd flog the one you could actually get a decent fee for.

Kuyt I'm still on the fence with. I'm equally encouraged and frustrated with the guy. On the one hand I'm thinking he's simply lacking in the marksmanship needed at a club like ours, but on the other I'm thinking maybe it's a matter of his bearings being off a few degrees and next term we'll be looking at a Drogba-style resurrection.

As for Bellamy, sometimes I can't help but look at him and think he's a right-winger that's made a living passing himself off as a striker. He's got good touch, awareness and times his runs well, but take away his pace and I don't think he's all that special. Every conversation I've had with mates about the guy, it all boils down to "well he's better than Cisse", which is about as faint praise as you can get. Don't get me wrong, I do like the guy and I'm glad we have him, but for me he looks like he's getting starts purely because he's a striker with pace, and not necessarily because he's might - god forbid - actually score.

[66-1112520797]

Most of the people on here are probably right in the signings we need, like a winger or two and some more creativity upfront and goals of course.

But the one major thing we do need next season as much as players is basically for Rafa to put what seems to be the simple things to us right. I think as we are with him TBH we wont win the Prem until he takes a completely different approach to things.

For instance, all these signings we're talking about. In hindsight once their in the squad and of course good enough. The team in theory should pick itself week in week out, but that doesnt happen with Rafa really does it? Has he learnt from the begining of this season I wonder, also small things like what seem to me like weird substitutions.

My main point that Rafa really needs to work on, for me personally. Is the teams creativeness in training. I was thinking this last night, and I reckon its easier to marshall and organise a defence or a team defensively. Hell Houllier had that down pat, its easier for centerhalfs to mark a player, its easier for defenders to communicate to eachother and keep a structured line at the back and so ...

I think its harder for a manager to add to the players abilities to create openings and be attack minded, and this is where I think Rafa struggles. He likes his team to score more than rely on one or two forwards, and this approach hasnt really worked out for us. TBH the team is almost in like a Houllier-esk kind of state, where we can defend but cant really create, attack and look devastating going forward, for me as well as the players brought in Rafa has to coach them right (obviously).

What are you laughing at you self opinionated t.wat ?

Mate you din half post some drivel lad, Jermaine Pennant one of the best right wingers in the world was it    You screamed that so loudly from the roof tops I dont think you deserve to ever get away with it.

Getacluelad 

)And your still harping on about Ashton, change the record lad)

One of the clique starts with abuse... Rest to follow...

Hey mate I'm in no cleek around here I can assure you, but laughing at my posts like your some sort of football expert f.ucks me off. You no, no more about football than anyone else buddy. You talk a good game now and then but your arrogance and self opinionated ways put me off your posts.

But not of course your Pennant one's as I get a real laugh outta them, considering you hold yourself so high in the knowledge of football.