Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Stu, would you take a risk on Woodgate, considering he's going to be available at the end of the season? He's had this season to show his fitness with his home town club and he has come through with flying colours. He is obviously well adjusted to the Prem and he is available for a great price (I think I read £6-8M).

The benefit for us of signing Woodgate would be that we have 3 top CB's for 2 positions. Further to that it would also enable Rafa to switch to 3-5-2 a bit more, should the need or want arise.

[76-1174245250]

I've already said yes without question. Especially the money he's going for. Yes its a gamble with his fitness but he's played alot this season. He's top class and for me easily the second best centre half in the league. He's got it all, pace, power, strength, composure on the ball, passing, heading.

I think with him, Agger, Carragher and Hyypia then we'd have a quality selection of centre halfs. Obviously Woodgate and Carragher being first choice. But with very able backup that would get into just about every team in the league outside the top four.

Plus you wouldn't have to play Woodgate all the time. You could occassionally rest him in the cups, the champions league and even if you dared to in the league against lesser sides.

[Redman in wales]

1. highlighted and back-up by facts like the game against villa - what was it? - 8 'defensive' -minded players on the team, and 3 attacking?

2. What Rafa should do (though its highly unlikely he would) is actually sit down with tapes of Utd chelsea and Arsenal and just look at their football. - See how attacking it is and consequently how they finish above us (nearly) every season.
As you've pointed out - See how many attacking players they have in their side - and they still manage to win many many games 3-0 and 4-1 with defences comparable to ours.

3. Defenders of the caliber of Carra and Hyypia/Agger shoudn't need TWO defensive midfielders infront of them. If Gerrard is our only attack-minded central midfielder then the way I see it is he has to play in the middle every single game (bar the big games when momo, Xabi and stevie would be needed)

4. Pennant is by all means not the greatest RW in the world, but at least he offers us some attacking threat down the right AT THE SAME TIME as stevie G offering a threat down the middle.

5. The left hand side is a pickle with kewell and garcia injured, but surely if Riise plays LB then we can alternate between Aurelio and Gonzo down the LW it may give us more balance and a better option down the left. (I dont like riise LW with Aurelio LB, it just doesn't seem to work that way round)

I've edited your post to make my point.

1. I am sick of hearing the attack versus defence arguement. We don't have Paul Scholes and Christiano Ronaldo. We also don't have Giggs or Evra so its ludicrous people expect us to play like United. The fact is you need to play to your strengths, weather they are defensive or forward thinking. Teams that play to there strengths are good sides regardless of weather they are "attacking or defensive". Look at Chelsea in the first season under Mourinho, they were no where near an "attacking fancy dan side". They were very solid, well organised and efficient. They certainly weren't "pleasing on the eye" for the idiots who like pretty football and think thats the be all and end all.

HOWEVER... theres is some truth in it when you refere to the team against Villa.

2. Pretty much the same point as number one. You also say how they finish above us every season... Thats down to personel. United finished 1 point ahead of us last season playing "defensively" as you put it. Under Houllier when we finished second we weren't "attacking" either and finished above them which clearly proves you're talking absoloute .

3. I this makes me laugh alot. Sami Hyypia wasn't a pacey centre half. Although a class player he relied on being boxed in by his own players, if you give Sami 20 yards the chances are anyone with a tiny bit of pace will rip him to shreds if they are half decent. IE Johnson, Bellamy, Defoe standard of players. If you do it against quick players who are world class you're wasting your time. So you box him in, you cover him alot, but the chances are he'll read lose balls, headers and has the composure to pick a pass. Can you imagine Sami in place of Ferdinand in Uniteds team up on the half way line When united have the ball... with Ferdinand its a bit different, drop it in behind and he'll get there because he's quick, drop it in behind Sami then simple as the striker has a one on one with the keeper.

Basically you all need to take of the rose tinted spectacles. Uniteds defence is miles ahead of ours in terms of personel, pace, power and ability to play which is the exact reason they can play like they do and have a defensive record like they do. Agger wouldn't get near United's team, Vidic and Ferdinand are far better players than Agger will ever be. Carragher may get in ahead of Vidic but I wouldn't put my life on it. There full backs also wipe the floor with ours weather people like it or not.

We absoloutely desperately NEED a top class centre half to play with Carragher so we can push up the field and expand our game slightly and keep pressure on opponents higher up the pitch. Those who think a player like Agger is upto the job are those who wonder why we're so far behind and can't understand why we are where we are.

4. Jermaine Pennant for me has shown ability in fits and starts. One week he'll beat players and put bad crosses in the, the next he won't beat anyone but put good crosses in, the next he'll work hard but not offer anything going forward, occassionally he's put if altogether but not consistently. He should start more games and I would love to see Kewell, Alonso, Gerrard and Pennant given five games to see how that works out in terms of balance.

The other thing about Pennant is it doesn't matter about his quality of cross. Kuyt can't head a ball to save his life and Bellamy isn't much better. Neither player are the sort of players that will score consistently from crosses like Fowler or even Crouch. Fowler shown against Villa (again i may add) that with Pennant in the team we can give him the right service he'll get chances. It was only a tremendous save that stopped us winning the game at the end. Ask yourself, would Bellamy or Kuyt have attacked that ball the way Robbie did? Answer: A definate NO!

5. Aurelio is a left back. NEVER in a million years is he a left winger. He looks lost out there and like a left back playing left wing. He's also one who i think deserves another season to get fit as he's shown in fits and starts his class. At the minute with Kewell out the only option at left midfield is Riise. Gonzalez is simply as is Zenden and neither player should be near the first team. You say Riise at left midfield doesn't work... I'm sorry but I disagree completely. It worked at home to Chelsea. Riise is probably defensively more sound than Aurelio but the fact is you don't play players out of position to disguise a weakness and Aurelio doesn't know how to play left midfield. Riise does.

Riise's equally good at both.

  nice one lad.


1. true "we dont have Paul Scholes and Christiano Ronaldo. We also don't have Giggs or Evra so its ludicrous people expect us to play like United"

but we do have pennant, gonzalez, fowler, none of which were used for 80mins against villa. - I'm comparing quality mate - i'm saying the teams like utd and chelsea when they win have a fair proportionof attack minded players

morinho first season wasn't attractive - and again i didnt mention anything about attractive football - i'm talking about the right players on the field.


2. Utd last season scored 72 goals to our 57 and conceeded more than us - i hardly think they were defensively minded.

Under houllier - granted - but that was one season and one season only where we've finished above them since the start of the premier league, and in that season they were only 3 points behind and had a better goal difference.

And all thats beside the point becuse arsenal won the league attacking football. yes they did have better quality players than us, but again its down to player selection, on the field and in the transfer market

3. Sami never was a pacy defender, no. but he still manged for many seasons with only one defensive midfielder infront of him

- yes their back 4 is better than ours, but not by much and Agger has proved himself so far that is is upto the task mate -he's played a majority of games this season and we've only conceded 20 goals - he aint doing much wrong.

its not the defence thats our problem. we've extremely good at keeping clean sheets. the problem is that we're not  creative enough and lack real firepower and goal threat.

4. - you completely agree with me, so thats good. 

5.  agree that gonzo is and we really need kewell back. You are right when you said Aurelio LB and Riise LW - i got confused there

[Redman in wales]

i would go for Woodgate too, espec on a free. but yet again, suprise suprise he's injured again.

[76-1174245250]

3. Sami never was a pacy defender, no. but he still manged for many seasons with only one defensive midfielder infront of him

- yes their back 4 is better than ours, but not by much and Agger has proved himself so far that is is upto the task mate -he's played a majority of games this season and we've only conceded 20 goals - he aint doing much wrong.

its not the defence thats our problem. we've extremely good at keeping clean sheets. the problem is that we're not  creative enough and lack real firepower and goal threat.

This is the one that gets my back up seriously.

Sami was always boxed in. He was a class footballer though used to his strengths. Which is fine. The fact is though if you don't play him to his strengths he looks like he did a few seasons ago when the idiots were saying he was finished.

Agger is not good enough to start every week. Never will be. The lads a decent player but nothing more. You then go onto mention the defensive record but in another part of your post slate Rafa for playing 8 defensive players against Villa... Whats that about? I'm sorry, Agger isn't responsible for that record. That record is as a result of the whole team defending as a unit.

Had a better centre half than Agger been in there, IE a Vidic, Ferdinand or Woogate that defensive record would either:

A. Be alot better or
B. Be similar but allow us to play a more expansive style of football and allow us to play with less caution.

Daniel Agger is no better a player than Riise and he's certainly not as good as Sami Hyypia was nor will he ever be.

[Redman in wales]

yes mystic meg. ok.

[76-1174245250]

Typical response from someone who hasn't got an arguement and doesn't know or understand the game.

[stmichael]

When he is running the game from the middle and wining games. And ya he does usally look unhappy but that never botherd the Mancs with Roy Kean gerrard is not the kind of player who whants to be everyones friend and favorite player he is the captain and he takes it serious when we lose he does't just forget like some players he hates to see Liverpool lose and if he thinksLiverpool could have won with him playing in the middle then he is gonna be unhappy just like any fan would and that's wot SG is a true fan lets not forget it.

bollox, he wasn't unhappy last year when he played on the right and he isn't unhappy either this year, he is and ofcourse all of the team are frustrated that we aren't scoring enough goals

Exactly.

Gerrard has plenty of anonymous games in central midfield yet I dont see the whole 'whats gerrards best position' bandwagon rolling then.

Yes, central midfield is probably gerards best position, but a more attacking central role. Benitezs tactics in a 4-4-2 dictate his 2 central players are required to hold for most of the game, which negates gerrards attacking attributes anyway. At least on the right, he is given more of a free reign to attack and also come inside when he wants.

Once we have an alves or someone of similar quality on the right, gerrard will be able to play more infield, but in the meantime, the team requires him to do a job on the right. A position in which he played in the uefa final in 2001 and scored a goal, and where he played most of last season in arguably his most consistant season, and a position from which he scored 23 goals.

Personally, I'm really bored with the gerrard on the right agenda spun by the media in particular sky. FACT is, hes played some of his best football in a red shirt in that position.'

[76-1174245250]

i would go for Woodgate too, espec on a free. but yet again, suprise suprise he's injured again.

And he's gonna miss an England game... so what?

[76-1174245250]

When he is running the game from the middle and wining games. And ya he does usally look unhappy but that never botherd the Mancs with Roy Kean gerrard is not the kind of player who whants to be everyones friend and favorite player he is the captain and he takes it serious when we lose he does't just forget like some players he hates to see Liverpool lose and if he thinksLiverpool could have won with him playing in the middle then he is gonna be unhappy just like any fan would and that's wot SG is a true fan lets not forget it.

bollox, he wasn't unhappy last year when he played on the right and he isn't unhappy either this year, he is and ofcourse all of the team are frustrated that we aren't scoring enough goals

Exactly.

Gerrard has plenty of anonymous games in central midfield yet I dont see the whole 'whats gerrards best position' bandwagon rolling then.

Yes, central midfield is probably gerards best position, but a more attacking central role. Benitezs tactics in a 4-4-2 dictate his 2 central players are required to hold for most of the game, which negates gerrards attacking attributes anyway. At least on the right, he is given more of a free reign to attack and also come inside when he wants.

Once we have an alves or someone of similar quality on the right, gerrard will be able to play more infield, but in the meantime, the team requires him to do a job on the right. A position in which he played in the uefa final in 2001 and scored a goal, and where he played most of last season in arguably his most consistant season, and a position from which he scored 23 goals.

Personally, I'm really bored with the gerrard on the right agenda spun by the media in particular sky. FACT is, hes played some of his best football in a red shirt in that position.'

Why does everyone see Gerrard as an attacking midfielder?

He's a better tackler than he is a passer. He's better at tracking back than opening up a defence. He's more aggressive and determined not to lose and stop good players attacking our goal than scoring goals.

Against United at anfield everytime Ronaldo or Rooney got the ball Gerrard used to sprint 50 yards full pelt just to go and tackle them and everytime he won the ball when others including Carragher failed.

[Redman in wales]

Typical response from someone who hasn't got an arguement and doesn't know or understand the game.

it was at your remarks abour Agger never being good enough to start every week

my post does not contradict itself mate - it is possible to win games with having more than 8 defensive players on the pitch. thats all i was saying. - i'm saying we can have both a good defensive record and attack.

[Redman in wales]

i would go for Woodgate too, espec on a free. but yet again, suprise suprise he's injured again.

And he's gonna miss an England game... so what?

...so the point is that he cant stay injury free... another sicknote.

but even then... i still think he's worth it

[grayghost]

Are defence is one of the best arond and is only gona get beeter with Agger playing more games.
It is plain to see that it is are attack that is so lacking we need a hole new attacking line with 3 to 4 top class sinings.

1-Tevez =15mil Can run with the ball and beat a man make space for  strikers and creates and scores goals. Very good talent and will be one of the best attacking players in years to come.

2-Eto=20mil I think we all can see how good he is and his scoring record speaks for it's self

3-Alves=17mil The best player in spain at the moment his form has been fantastic very attacking player no matter if he is playing right back ur right mid

4-Joaquin=16mil Has not had the best of seasons at his new club not even in the starting line up half the time. But has the skill to unlock any defence if it's with pace and power ur with a pass. Rafa surposerdly tried to sign him before he joined valencia may try to get him again.

................reina.................
Alves....JC.........Agger......rise..
joaqen...SG.....Alonso.......kewell
...........Tevez.......Eto.............

Wot do you think could this team win us the prem

[76-1174245250]

:laugh:

Typical response from someone who hasn't got an arguement and doesn't know or understand the game.

it was at your remarks abour Agger never being good enough to start every week

my post does not contradict itself mate - it is possible to win games with having more than 8 defensive players on the pitch. thats all i was saying. - i'm saying we can have both a good defensive record and attack.

Right footballers don't ever become something they aren't. Agger will never become something he's not. No player will ever be average then all of a sudden become world class. It doesn't happen.

All the idiots will tell you about Carragher. The fact is that Carragher has improved ever so slightly and has gained confidence, but in general he shows now what he shown as an 18 year old. He still has the same limitations, he still has the same strengths and qualities. He's still a good player just as he was then.

Players will never become something they aren't. End of.

[stmichael]

When he is running the game from the middle and wining games. And ya he does usally look unhappy but that never botherd the Mancs with Roy Kean gerrard is not the kind of player who whants to be everyones friend and favorite player he is the captain and he takes it serious when we lose he does't just forget like some players he hates to see Liverpool lose and if he thinksLiverpool could have won with him playing in the middle then he is gonna be unhappy just like any fan would and that's wot SG is a true fan lets not forget it.

bollox, he wasn't unhappy last year when he played on the right and he isn't unhappy either this year, he is and ofcourse all of the team are frustrated that we aren't scoring enough goals

Exactly.

Gerrard has plenty of anonymous games in central midfield yet I dont see the whole 'whats gerrards best position' bandwagon rolling then.

Yes, central midfield is probably gerards best position, but a more attacking central role. Benitezs tactics in a 4-4-2 dictate his 2 central players are required to hold for most of the game, which negates gerrards attacking attributes anyway. At least on the right, he is given more of a free reign to attack and also come inside when he wants.

Once we have an alves or someone of similar quality on the right, gerrard will be able to play more infield, but in the meantime, the team requires him to do a job on the right. A position in which he played in the uefa final in 2001 and scored a goal, and where he played most of last season in arguably his most consistant season, and a position from which he scored 23 goals.

Personally, I'm really bored with the gerrard on the right agenda spun by the media in particular sky. FACT is, hes played some of his best football in a red shirt in that position.'

Why does everyone see Gerrard as an attacking midfielder?

He's a better tackler than he is a passer. He's better at tracking back than opening up a defence. He's more aggressive and determined not to lose and stop good players attacking our goal than scoring goals.

Against United at anfield everytime Ronaldo or Rooney got the ball Gerrard used to sprint 50 yards full pelt just to go and tackle them and everytime he won the ball when others including Carragher failed.

I just think Gerrard has changed Stu. But then, back in the old days, we used to employ a midfield which was almost entirely devoid of 'tricky' wide players meaning that manning the centre of the citadel was less onerous a task than if you have Gonzalez and/or Pennant on the pitch. And, of course, he was nursed by Didi or Gary Mac or sometimes both.

He simply doesn't have the discipline to play centre mid in any game where the other side have anything like a stiff midfield. It's my hobby horse that if we could accommodate Momo, Xabi AND Gerrard in a centre-midfield trio we would have something that no team could match in that department.