Liverpool FC Forum

[tubby]

The guy converted to Islam and went to that now banned Omar Bakari's seminars at a Mosque in Woolwich. If you still think the Muslim communities in the UK have no responsibility towards that then fine. But if they continue to bury their heads in the sand they will see a real backlash from everyone in this country. And quite frankly if they can't be arsed to do anything about the idiot fanatics that operate within these communities then they all deserve whatever abuse they get from everyone else. I don't want to see innocent good Muslims tarred with the same brush but only they can help sort this mess out with a real public rejection of these fanatics.

[the return of HAS]

Public rejection?

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2333:pr-template&catid=40:press-release

Muslim Council of Britain


Muslims Condemn Attack on Soldier in Woolwich

   
•No cause justifies this murder
•A barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly
•Vast majority of British Muslims acknowledge armed forces for the work they do
•Calls for calm and unity in all communities

The Muslim Council of Britain this evening spoke out, in the strongest possible terms, the news of a horrific murder that has taken place in Woolwich, London. Eye-witnesses suggest that the murderers made Islamic slogans during their heinous action and were thus motivated by their Islamic faith.

This is a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly. Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. We understand the victim is a serving member of the Armed Forces.  Muslims have long served in this country’s Armed Forces, proudly and with honour. This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonourable, and no cause justifies this murder.

This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom. We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail. It is important we allow our police authorities to do their job without speculation. We also urge the utmost vigilance and ask the police authorities to calm tensions.

[the return of HAS]

Public rejection?

A representative of the Muslim council of Britain - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opRntNy573U

[the return of HAS]

Have you ever thought that by reading the publications you choose to read and by watching the TV you choose to watch it’s you who is burying his head in the sand?

[the return of HAS]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 68870.html

Imam speaks out against Muslim ‘vigilantes’


Vigilante patrols by a handful of fundamentalist Muslim men in East London targeting women, gays and public drinkers have sparked a committed fight-back over the past week  from locals and imams, who say the groups are abhorrent.


Videos of the patrols, which showed young men hounding people for behaviour that they deemed “unIslamic”, caused widespread anger when they were placed online. But locals say the patrols have failed to spark the kind of inter-communal animosity they were hoping to achieve with their attacks.

Shaikh Shams Ad Duha, a young British imam who runs the Ebrahim College in Whitechapel, was one of those leading the charge against the fundamentalists, issuing a stinging critique of the vigilante groups.

In a sermon at East London Mosque, which was placed on YouTube and has already garnered 20,000 views in less than a week, Shaikh Shams railed against the men in the video for being “complete bigots” who were contravening Islamic law, not enforcing it.

The sermon is significant because it tackles the vigilante group’s actions from an Islamic perspective.

“When things like this happen Muslims tend to privately voice their opposition,” he said. “But nobody wants to address this perspective from an Islamic or Sharia point of view to simply articulate that this is actually wrong Islamically.”

The Shaikh, whose background is the comparatively orthodox Tablighi Jamaat movement, went on to explain how, even in Islamic countries, Muslims are not permitted to damage “the wine and pork stocks” of a non-Muslim, according to key scholars from Hanafi school of Islamic law.

“Islam was celebrated for allowing [non-Muslim] people who lived in an Islamic state to live according to their principles, their religion, their Sharia,” he said, later adding: “This is in the Muslim lands, in the time of the Caliphate. And we saw this video where, in the streets of Tower Hamlets, in the streets of England. Enough said right?”

In comments underneath the YouTube video the sermon won praise from Muslims and non-Muslims alike. “I’m not a Muslim,” wrote Andy Harely. “But I have to say that this outstanding sermon has done a lot to create a better understanding.”

Another Muslim commentor wrote: “We can only apologise to our non-Muslim brothers and sisters for what these idiotic people have done.” Fiyaz Mughal from Faith Matters, a conflict resolution charity which works in the area, said he had in fact been “given hope” by the response to the videos because the chorus of opposition from Muslim leaders was so “quick and unanimous” while the media response recognised that the vigilante groups were an unpleasant minority.

“I think it’s something of a turning point because this could have turned into something much worse,” he said. “Local leaders weren’t afraid to tackle the problem head on while the press did a pretty responsible job of recognising that these guys are such a minority.”

Police have arrested two men and on Thursday released a picture of a man who was subjected to a homophobic attack by the gang in one of the videos. The Independent understands locals in Tower Hamlets are helping police with their enquiries in attempting to identify the members of groups which are most likely behind the vigilante patrols.

[the return of HAS]

Over the last decade or so a real issue has developed within the Islamic community were angry men in the late teens and 20s are being targeted by people who can only be described as evil men. But to say that the Islamic community are burying their heads in the sand, refusing to acknowledge and combat the issue it just plain wrong.

[damjan193]

I agree with mostly everything you said tubby but unfortunately you and especially devaney (what the hell man, you're saying it as if I'm justifying murder) don't understand my point. Whether it is because I'm not choosing the right words to support my argument or because you're too poisoned by your media and government that Islam is the thing that should be blamed, I don't know. I'm guessing it's both. I'll try one last time and I'll be as short and as clear as I can. I am not defending the idiot extremists who murder innocents and I'm not defending the Muslim communities who appear to have no problem with the violence that is being spread in the name of their religion (although it seems that you are slightly wrong according to the poster above), I'm just saying, is this really all down to Islam and Islam alone? Does the religion really encourage the spread of evil and violence? The answer is no. The fact that it's being (intentionally) misinterpreted by some in order to manipulate better with people (history tells us that this has been the case with almost every religion) is a different thing. The fact that their homes are being bombed every other day by western airplanes isn't really helping to sort out the situation (and IMO it's the root of the problems). You have to understand that the existence of the religion Islam isn't the main problem. Even if they had any other religion, different from the one of their "enemies", things would still be the same.

[Kenny Kan]

Because of Islam's dualistic messages the radicals not only see Islam as simply a religion they also see it as a complete system, i.e. a socio, economic, cultural and political way of life. It can only work with total submission, rather like middle ages Christianity.

Anyway,

R.I.P Lee Rigby

[devaney]

I agree with mostly everything you said tubby but unfortunately you and especially devaney (what the hell man, you're saying it as if I'm justifying murder) don't understand my point. Whether it is because I'm not choosing the right words to support my argument or because you're too poisoned by your media and government that Islam is the thing that should be blamed, I don't know. I'm guessing it's both. I'll try one last time and I'll be as short and as clear as I can. I am not defending the idiot extremists who murder innocents and I'm not defending the Muslim communities who appear to have no problem with the violence that is being spread in the name of their religion (although it seems that you are slightly wrong according to the poster above), I'm just saying, is this really all down to Islam and Islam alone? Does the religion really encourage the spread of evil and violence? The answer is no. The fact that it's being (intentionally) misinterpreted by some in order to manipulate better with people (history tells us that this has been the case with almost every religion) is a different thing. The fact that their homes are being bombed every other day by western airplanes isn't really helping to sort out the situation (and IMO it's the root of the problems). You have to understand that the existence of the religion Islam isn't the main problem. Even if they had any other religion, different from the one of their "enemies", things would still be the same.

Damjan you have admitted (I think - apologies if I'm wrong) to being a Muslim and these are your words and not mine: "Honestly mate, what kind of an opinion do you expect people from Islamic countries to have regarding the events of 9/11? It's a fact that the USA and the rest of the western world has occupied those Islamic countries, so you can't really expect Muslims to be friendly towards the West. NATO bombed Serbia, a Christian country, in 1999. Do you believe Serbians felt sympathy when 9/11 happened?" I'm very sorry but you come across as a total sympathiser and yes unfortunately you also sounded as if you were actually justifying murder.If you do not wish to be misunderstood then I suggest you make yourself a lot clearer. Your defence of Islam is typical and I certainly do not agree with your simple way of dismissing it as the problem.

[damjan193]

ADMIT being a Muslim? So what, is being a Muslim a crime now? If you must know, I was born and raised as an Orthodox Christian, but as I matured I chose not to follow any religion. I believe in God, but I don' believe in any particular religion.
The fact that you ask me to "admit" that I'm a Muslim as if it was something wrong says a lot about how much poisoned you people are by your media and government with things like "the evil religion that is Islam" and "It's only their fault, not ours". Obviously, even the civilized and educated western world of Christianity can be brainwashed and not just the uncivilized Islam communities. I have nothing more to add to this subject.

[babu]

This is why forums suck sometimes, words can be taken out of context.  'Admitted' quite easily could be replaced as 'mentioned'

We should always assume the best intention, otherwise circular arguements escalate.

By the way, I'm Muslim, and I condemn this cowardly attack without reservation, but I don't think it would matter if I worshipped a frog, I'd be still horrified by this.

[damjan193]

This is why forums suck sometimes, words can be taken out of context.  'Admitted' quite easily could be replaced as 'mentioned'

We should always assume the best intention, otherwise circular arguements escalate.

By the way, I'm Muslim, and I condemn this cowardly attack without reservation, but I don't think it would matter if I worshipped a frog, I'd be still horrified by this.

It's not the forum's fault that my English sucks mate. If this was what he meant then I apologize.

My point still stands though.

[devaney]

This is why forums suck sometimes, words can be taken out of context.  'Admitted' quite easily could be replaced as 'mentioned'

We should always assume the best intention, otherwise circular arguements escalate.

By the way, I'm Muslim, and I condemn this cowardly attack without reservation, but I don't think it would matter if I worshipped a frog, I'd be still horrified by this.

It's not the forum's fault that my English sucks mate. If this was what he meant then I apologize.

My point still stands though.

Damjan let's not fall out over religion mate ffs !! We share the same views. I am a Christian but getting closer to becoming agnostic everyday. I also do not believe in denominational religion.

I have clearly misunderstood you, although you have not been very clear at times. I was not asking you to admit that you were a Muslim. I thought you had previously said that you were Muslim - my mistake. You come across as showing an element of sympathy towards Muslims. You use the terminology you people which suggests that you want to detach yourself.

I think a lot has been lost in translation so let's just forget it and worry about LFC.

All the best.

Dave

[babu]

Surprisingly good comments, especially since it comes from Russell Brand.


http://darkernet.in/russell-brand-and-the-woolwich-murder/

The best comment we came across on the killing of a soldier, Lee Rigby, at Woolwich last week was not from any politician, nor ideologue, nor media commentator, nor religious leader, but from a blog by Russell Brand. Below, without unnecessary comment or links, we reproduce this ‘essay’ as it stands. It deserves to be publicised widely, for Brand – like whistleblower Bradley Manning – reminds us all of our humanity. It is the antithesis of those who preach hate, whether religious hate, or from other kinds of fundamentalists, or from racists. 

Woolwich 

The news cycle moves so quickly now that often we learn of an event through other people’s reaction to it. So it was when I arrived in Los Angeles to find my twitter feed contorted with posts of fear and confusion.

I caught up with the sad malice in Woolwich and felt compelled to tweet in casual defense of the Muslim community who were being haphazardly condemned by a few people on my time line. Perhaps a bit glibly (but what isn’t glib in 140 characters) I put “That bloke is a nut. A nut who happens to be Muslim. Blaming Muslims for this is like blaming Hitler’s moustache for the Holocaust”.

As an analogy it is imperfect but I was frightened by how negative and incendiary the mood felt and I rushed. I’m not proposing we sit around trying to summons up cute analogies when Lee Rigby has lost his life in horrific circumstances I simply feel that it is important that our reaction is measured. Something about the arbitrary brutality, the humdrum high-street setting, the cool rhetoric of the blood stained murderer evoke a powerful and inherently irrational response. When I first heard the word “beheading” I felt the atavistic grumble that we all feel. This is inhumane, taboo, not a result of passion but of malice, ritualistic. “If this is happening to guiltless men on our streets it could happen to me” I thought.

Then I watched the mobile phone clip. In spite of his dispassionate intoning the subject is not rational, of course he’s not rational, he’s just murdered a stranger in the street, he says, because of a book.

In my view that man is severely mentally ill and has found a convenient conduit for his insanity, in this case the Quran. In the case of another mentally ill and desperate man, Mark Chapman, it was A Catcher In The Rye. This was the nominated text for his rationalisation of the murder of John Lennon. I’ve read that book and I’ve read some of the Quran and nothing in either of them has compelled me to do violence. Perhaps this is because I lack the other necessary ingredients for extreme anti social behaviour; mental illness and isolation; either economic, social or both.

After my Hitler tweet I got involved in a bit of back and forth with a few people who said stuff like “the murderer said himself he did it for Islam”. Although I wouldn’t dismiss what he’s saying entirely I think he forfeited the right to have his views received unthinkingly when he murdered a stranger in the street. Someone else regarding my tweet said “Hitler’s moustache didn’t invent an ideology that sanctions murder”. That is thankfully true but Islam when practiced by normal people is not an advocacy for violence. “People all over the world are killing in the name of Islam” someone added. This is the most tricky bit to understand. What I think is that all over our country, all over our planet there are huge numbers of people who feel alienated and sometimes victimised by the privileged and the powerful, whether that’s rich people, powerful corporations or occupying nations. They feel that their interests are not being represented and, in many cases, know that their friends and families are being murdered by foreign soldiers. I suppose people like that may look to their indigenous theology for validation and to sanctify their, to some degree understandable, feelings of rage.

Comparable, I suppose to the way that homophobes feel a prejudicial pang in their tummies then look to the bible to see if there’s anything in there to justify it. There is, a piddling little bit in Leviticus. The main narrative thrust of The Bible though, like most spiritual texts, including the Quran is; be nice to each other because we’re all the same.

When some football fans smash up shops and beat each other up that isn’t because of football or football clubs. It’s because loads of white, working class men have been culturally neglected and their powerful tribal instincts end up getting sloshed about in riotous lager carnivals. I love football, I love West Ham, I’ve never been involved in football violence because I don’t feel that it’s my only access to social power. Also I’m not that hard and I’m worried I’d get my head kicked in down the New Den.

What the English Defence League and other angry, confused people are doing and advocating now, violence against mosques, Muslims, proliferation of hateful rhetoric is exactly what that poor, sick, murderous man, blood soaked on a peaceful street, was hoping for in his desperate, muddled mind.

The extremists on both sides have a shared agenda; cause division, distrust, anger and violence. Both sides have the same intention. We cannot allow them to distort our perception.

The establishment too is relatively happy when different groups of desperate people point the finger at each other because it prevents blame being correctly directed at them. Whenever we are looking for the solution to a problem we must identify who has power. By power I mean influence and money. The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words. We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another. If we can take anything heartening from this dreadful attack it is of course the actions of the three women, it’s always women, that boldly guarded Lee Rigby’s body as he lay needlessly murdered. These women looked beyond the fear and chaos and desperation and attuned instead to a higher code. One of virtue, integrity and strength.

To truly demonstrate defiance in the face of this sad violence, we must be loving and compassionate to one another. Let’s look beyond our superficial and fleeting differences. The murderers want angry patriots to desecrate mosques and perpetuate violence. How futile their actions seem if we instead leave flowers at each other’s places of worship. Let’s reach out in the spirit of love and humanity and connect to one another, perhaps we will then see what is really behind this conflict, this division, this hatred and make that our focus.

Russell Brand
May 25th, 2013