Liverpool FC Forum

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:30 pm

He's getting goals, it's just that he's not putting in all-round performances like Crouch is.

In a good Crouch game over 90 minutes you'll see him taking high balls, taking balls on the ground, bringing in those around him, getting into the box, and getting a goal to his name.

In a good Cisse game, you'll see him streaking past defenders, cutting balls back from the byline with varying degrees of success, missing sitters, blasting over from 20 yards a couple of times, fluffing his first touch several times, but ultimately getting one in the net.

Yeah, Crouch's game is based more around being a team player, but then I'd have no complaints about Cisse so long as he finishes a decent portion of his chances for us. Owen wasn't exactly Mr All-Round Game, but he did his job and everyone went home happy.

by **72-1136150807** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:34 pm

Thats my point though, yes he is getting goals, so is doing what we expected, its just that his all round game, in the long run is just not what Rafa is looking for, whereas Crouch epitomises what he wants from a player, in many respects.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:38 pm

I disagree - it's just two different types of striker. If both players started 75-85% of games in a season, I think someone like Crouch will bring you 12-15 goals, plus maybe another 10-15 assists.

Cisse for me would bring you potentially 20+ goals, but fewer assists.

by **72-1136150807** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:41 pm

I am not saying Cisse wont or cant score goals, he most definetly can, but he is not a Rafa 'type' player, for many reasons, that I am sure I dont need to repeat. Crouch brings a lot more to the team than Cisse (not in terms of ability but all round input and involvement!).

I personally prefer Cisse, and want him to get an extended run in the team alongside Crouch, as I feel they could oer time complement each other perfectly, the problem is though does Rafa?

And honestly though I love Cisse I have to use my head it tells me his time is very much borrowed (oh the irony!)

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:46 pm

Cisse can not be given a chance in the team if he doesn't improve. In Rafa's system, the striker has to do other things than score goals. Cisse doesn't do that and when he does, he doesn't do enough of it.

He's missing chances like Baros did last season, chances that should be converted. 1 on 1 with the keeper type of chances to score, need to be put away nine times out of ten.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:46 pm

It's the "Rafa-type-of-player" point that I'm disagreeing with.

I think that - on a very general level - Crouch and Morientes are a similar type of player. You don't rotate 4 of the same type of player in a squad, hence the balls-out pace of Cisse, and the tricky, slightly unpredictable type of game of Pongolle.

I think Rafa actually likes the contrast in styles, and I think all four have a future at LFC.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:48 pm

A.B. wrote:Cisse can not be given a chance in the team if he doesn't improve. In Rafa's system, the striker has to do other things than score goals. Cisse doesn't do that and when he does, he doesn't do enough of it.

He's missing chances like Baros did last season, chances that should be converted. 1 on 1 with the keeper type of chances to score, need to be put away nine times out of ten.

But that's the crux of the problem - if he's not given a run in the side, he won't improve.

You don't get confidence in front of goal by sitting on the bench.

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:51 pm

Pongolle keen to stay

Off LFC.tv

FA Cup hero Florent Sinama-Pongolle insists he has no intention of leaving Liverpool amid speculation that he may be about to go out on loan during the January transfer window.
Two-goal Pongolle came off the bench to inspire a dramatic 5-3 victory over Luton Town at Kenilworth Road on Saturday and he's hoping it'll spark a turnaround in his Anfield fortunes.

"I haven't played as much as I would have liked so far this season, so it's understandable that I am a little bit disappointed with how things have gone up to now," he says.

"But I'm happy at Liverpool. I love the club and I am still very much enjoying myself here. Being at this club is a great footballing experience for me.

"I want to prove to people that I am a very good player and that I can be a big success here. Hopefully I will enjoy being a Liverpool player for a long time to come.

"I will have a talk with Rafael Benitez about his plans. I would love the manager to say that he wants me to stay at Liverpool. That's the answer I'm looking for."

Reflecting on his two goals against Luton, the French striker adds: "When I was asked to go on at 3-1, all I was thinking about was getting a goal and repeating what happened against Olympiakos last season.

"It proved to be a similar situation. Just like then, we needed three goals in a short time. I knew if we continued to work hard enough we'd create chances and if one fell to me, I had to take it.

"This is the first time I've scored twice in the same game for Liverpool. It's funny because I was only speaking to my friends earlier this week and saying I hadn't scored more than once in a match for Liverpool. Now it's happened.

"I'm not thinking of the next game, or the game after that. I'm just enjoying every moment I can and trying not to look too far ahead.

"I just want to focus on doing my best in training this week and hopefully I will be involved against Tottenham."

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:52 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:
A.B. wrote:Cisse can not be given a chance in the team if he doesn't improve. In Rafa's system, the striker has to do other things than score goals. Cisse doesn't do that and when he does, he doesn't do enough of it.

He's missing chances like Baros did last season, chances that should be converted. 1 on 1 with the keeper type of chances to score, need to be put away nine times out of ten.

But that's the crux of the problem - if he's not given a run in the side, he won't improve.

You don't get confidence in front of goal by sitting on the bench.

Unlike Crouch, Cisse plays poorely in every game. Crouch played well but didn't score and Rafa kept on playing until he eventually scored.

However it's difficult to do that with Cisse, because he hardly has a good game.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:00 pm

A.B. wrote:
A.B. wrote:Unlike Crouch, Cisse plays poorely in every game. Crouch played well but didn't score and Rafa kept on playing until he eventually scored.

However it's difficult to do that with Cisse, because he hardly has a good game.

If Rafa thinks Cisse has a future at LFC, he has to back him though. Cisse's here because he should be scoring a lot of goals, and if Rafa wants him to do that, he has to give him time on the park.

It's reminiscent of when Diouf was here. He'd be in and out of the side, and most of the time he was on the pitch GH bunged him out on the right.

Ditto with Cisse - you need to give him something like 6 consecutive games up front from the start, and then his value (or otherwise) to the team will be clearer.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:07 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:
A.B. wrote:
A.B. wrote:Unlike Crouch, Cisse plays poorely in every game. Crouch played well but didn't score and Rafa kept on playing until he eventually scored.

However it's difficult to do that with Cisse, because he hardly has a good game.

If Rafa thinks Cisse has a future at LFC, he has to back him though. Cisse's here because he should be scoring a lot of goals, and if Rafa wants him to do that, he has to give him time on the park.

It's reminiscent of when Diouf was here. He'd be in and out of the side, and most of the time he was on the pitch GH bunged him out on the right.

Ditto with Cisse - you need to give him something like 6 consecutive games up front from the start, and then his value (or otherwise) to the team will be clearer.

Its clear now and A.B. is correct.

How can you play a play who's playing rubbish football?

He can score the odd goal, but apart from that he doesn't offer anything else and it can be like playing with 10 men. He doesn't bring the best out of Gerrard like Crouch does either who is our best player.

Its all well and good saying he'd score 20 goals a season in all comps, he might, he might even get 15 in the league, but he'll play poorly 9 out of every 10 games, for a Liverpool player thats not good enough.

We're used to seeing Rush, Fowler, Owen.... while the first two didn't have an alround game of superior standard they where more than good enough in that respect but with freakish goalscoring records, we then got Owen who was a better player than both but lacked there ability to score as many goals.

Now though we have a good second striker in Crouch but the first... Cisse... just simply isn't good enough.

I don't need 10 games or 5 games to see it, i've seen enough already. I can judge a player after seeing them once or twice, i've seen Cisse in around 40 games now... nothings changed.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:10 pm

stu_the_red wrote:We're used to seeing Rush, Fowler, Owen.... while the first two didn't have an alround game of superior standard they where more than good enough in that respect but with freakish goalscoring records, we then got Owen who was a better player than both but lacked there ability to score as many goals.

Rush was also one of the hardest working forwards I have ever seen and many say that he was one of the all time greats when it came to tracking back and helping out in defence.

At his peak his work rate was freakish, even as an old man in his mid 30s his work rate put almost every other forward in the game to shame.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:11 pm

A.B. wrote:Pongolle keen to stay

Off LFC.tv

FA Cup hero Florent Sinama-Pongolle insists he has no intention of leaving Liverpool amid speculation that he may be about to go out on loan during the January transfer window.
Two-goal Pongolle came off the bench to inspire a dramatic 5-3 victory over Luton Town at Kenilworth Road on Saturday and he's hoping it'll spark a turnaround in his Anfield fortunes.

"I haven't played as much as I would have liked so far this season, so it's understandable that I am a little bit disappointed with how things have gone up to now," he says.

"But I'm happy at Liverpool. I love the club and I am still very much enjoying myself here. Being at this club is a great footballing experience for me.

"I want to prove to people that I am a very good player and that I can be a big success here. Hopefully I will enjoy being a Liverpool player for a long time to come.

"I will have a talk with Rafael Benitez about his plans. I would love the manager to say that he wants me to stay at Liverpool. That's the answer I'm looking for."

Reflecting on his two goals against Luton, the French striker adds: "When I was asked to go on at 3-1, all I was thinking about was getting a goal and repeating what happened against Olympiakos last season.

"It proved to be a similar situation. Just like then, we needed three goals in a short time. I knew if we continued to work hard enough we'd create chances and if one fell to me, I had to take it.

"This is the first time I've scored twice in the same game for Liverpool. It's funny because I was only speaking to my friends earlier this week and saying I hadn't scored more than once in a match for Liverpool. Now it's happened.

"I'm not thinking of the next game, or the game after that. I'm just enjoying every moment I can and trying not to look too far ahead.

"I just want to focus on doing my best in training this week and hopefully I will be involved against Tottenham."

Perfect attitude.

As i said, he has masses of potential and we need him to play games to learn how to fulfill it. I really think he can do the business.

Infact, i'd go as far to say as he can get to a level where we don't need another first team striker. He's got what it takes. His alround game will improve with games (IE become less selfish and more intelligent), he can already hold the ball up and link up with players and i think given the right time on the pitch could score 15 goals a season. Which when you think about it, if you have him, Crouch, Gerrard and Luis Garcia on that its alot of goals.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:14 pm

JBG wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:We're used to seeing Rush, Fowler, Owen.... while the first two didn't have an alround game of superior standard they where more than good enough in that respect but with freakish goalscoring records, we then got Owen who was a better player than both but lacked there ability to score as many goals.

Rush was also one of the hardest working forwards I have ever seen and many say that he was one of the all time greats when it came to tracking back and helping out in defence.

At his peak his work rate was freakish, even as an old man in his mid 30s his work rate put almost every other forward in the game to shame.

Agreed, but to say he had Owen or Fowlers technical ability is wrong. He couldn't kick a ball more than 10 yards.

Rush was great in his own right, however i feel he wasn't as good as Owen or Fowler. He was in a great team, with great players around him which made it easy for him... thats not taking anything away from him, thats me simply saying when you put a class act in a class team it makes them look slightly better than they actually are...

To a lesser extent... think Lampard and Chelsea.

Sorry to use that comparrison but thats just to make my point.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:21 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
JBG wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:We're used to seeing Rush, Fowler, Owen.... while the first two didn't have an alround game of superior standard they where more than good enough in that respect but with freakish goalscoring records, we then got Owen who was a better player than both but lacked there ability to score as many goals.

Rush was also one of the hardest working forwards I have ever seen and many say that he was one of the all time greats when it came to tracking back and helping out in defence.

At his peak his work rate was freakish, even as an old man in his mid 30s his work rate put almost every other forward in the game to shame.

Agreed, but to say he had Owen or Fowlers technical ability is wrong. He couldn't kick a ball more than 10 yards.

Rush was great in his own right, however i feel he wasn't as good as Owen or Fowler. He was in a great team, with great players around him which made it easy for him... thats not taking anything away from him, thats me simply saying when you put a class act in a class team it makes them look slightly better than they actually are...

To a lesser extent... think Lampard and Chelsea.

Sorry to use that comparrison but thats just to make my point.

Oh, I agree, Rush was no genius, from a technical point of view he was a limited forward, although he had a reasonable touch and could hit a ball. Fowler and Owen had more technique.

Rush's instinct was better than Owen's but not quite as good as Fowlers.

Owen probably has the better footballing brain of the lot.

Rush's attitude, dedication and contribution to the team dwarfes that of both Fowler and Owen.

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