Liverpool FC Forum

by **drummerphil** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:36 am

stu_the_red wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
Thats how you spot a player who's got the ability to make the step up. You were saying he had time on the ball, thats the first thing you look for when you're deciding if a player has the ability to step up a level.

There weren't too many players on the pitch that didn't get 10 seconds on the ball unchallenged. Sure, he was picking out good passes and his touch is very good. It's a very different kettle of fish when you've got good Premiership defenders on your chuff though.

The point is he done it in every premiership game last year with the likes of Hyypia, Ferdinand, Terry, Gallas etc on your back, what more can he do?

The lads not a good player, he's no Crouch, Riise or Finnan. He's a class player with class attributes in many area's and a very solid alround game, something Cisse can only ever dream of having.

here here...............i cannot fault any word of that.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:38 am

Good lad you are Phil, keep agreeing with me and we'll get on fine...

by **JBG** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:40 am

by **drummerphil** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:41 am

stu_the_red wrote:Good lad you are Phil, keep agreeing with me and we'll get on fine...

thought it was you agreeing with me.........your elder :laugh:

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:41 am

Must say, quite funny for me that... :cool:

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:38 am

stu_the_red wrote:The point is he done it in every premiership game last year with the likes of Hyypia, Ferdinand, Terry, Gallas etc on your back, what more can he do?

Er...no he hasn't.

I'll have to pick you up on some points here.

Don't forget he only signed for Norwich during the window this time last season. Between then and the end of the season, they played 16, won 5, lost 9 and drew 2.

He hasn't played against Liverpool, hence he's not had the chance to test himself against Hyypia. They lost 3-1 against Chelsea (he didn't get the goal - McKenzie goal from Huckerby assist). He did score against United, but this was at a time when Ferdinand was in his slump, and they were leaking goals all over the place.

I think what you meant to say was that he'd "done it" in under half of Norwich's Premiership fixture list. And he did - to his credit - score 7 goals during this time. But even after being impressed with some of his performances I think it's irresponsible to read too much into that. You can't get the cheque book out and splash big money based on that record.

Let's not forget, Jon Stead had a similar record for Blackburn when he was signed in the window the previous season. A few people brought his name up this time last year. Where's he now? Sunderland. 0 goals in 19 appearances.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:11 am

ivor_the_injun wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:The point is he done it in every premiership game last year with the likes of Hyypia, Ferdinand, Terry, Gallas etc on your back, what more can he do?

Er...no he hasn't.

I'll have to pick you up on some points here.

Don't forget he only signed for Norwich during the window this time last season. Between then and the end of the season, they played 16, won 5, lost 9 and drew 2.

He hasn't played against Liverpool, hence he's not had the chance to test himself against Hyypia. They lost 3-1 against Chelsea (he didn't get the goal - McKenzie goal from Huckerby assist). He did score against United, but this was at a time when Ferdinand was in his slump, and they were leaking goals all over the place.

I think what you meant to say was that he'd "done it" in under half of Norwich's Premiership fixture list. And he did - to his credit - score 7 goals during this time. But even after being impressed with some of his performances I think it's irresponsible to read too much into that. You can't get the cheque book out and splash big money based on that record.

Let's not forget, Jon Stead had a similar record for Blackburn when he was signed in the window the previous season. A few people brought his name up this time last year. Where's he now? Sunderland. 0 goals in 19 appearances.

Again Jon Stead is a different class of player completely. Its easy to spot a good player and an average one playing above himself. For me anyway, I've called many players before, IE Carragher, Baros, Phillips, Robbie Keane, Jon Harley, Ashton, Thompson, Fowler, Owen, Rooney, Crouch, Milner... all of these players i've got right in terms of ability, i've not once been suprised by ay of them. I'll continue to believe in my judgement untill i get one wrong.

I'm actually starting to find you a bit tedious with your arguements. Not only do i feel you are biased towards our players but i feel you seem completely blind to the fact an english lad outside the top league is capable of being a top player and you seem to refuse that Dean Ashton of Norwich could possibly be better than the 14million pound Cisse, who just for the record couldn't control a bag of cement.

You've just acknowledged he scored 7 goals since signing in Janurary for Norwich, he's impressed everywhere he's been and he's by a mile Norwich's best player.

Yet despite his undoubted talent you think he's not worth a 5million punt? Crouch had one good HALF SEASON in his career before he came here mate, i'm sorry but that alone doesn't warrant a 7m transfer. However, he's proven with his ability he's worth it. Ashton WOULD UNDOUBTEDLY in my mind do the same, i know i'm right about him, i don't think, I KNOW.

Ashton is clearly a better footballer with more ability than Crouch, anyone who knows the game properly can see that. Crouch is however a good player.

I'm not one for stats as they can be twisted to manipulate an arguement, however...

Norwich won 7 games that season mate in the league, 5 of which Ashton was in the team for. Before Christmas that leaves them with 2 wins in 22 games. They went down by one point, had he been there all season, i'm 100% sure he'd have earnt them at least one more point with a goal somewhere down the line, in all reallity, probably another 6 points which would have pushed them up as far as 16th.

His goals for the record...
------------------------------------
Norwich: 4
Francis, 18
Ashton, 80
McKenzie, 90
Drury, 90

Middlesbrough: 4
Hasselbaink 34, 78
Queudrue 49, 55 4
------------------------------------
Norwich: 2
Ashton, 12
McKenzie, 16
Sent off : Jonson 66

Manchester City: 3
Sibierski, 25
Fowler 37, 90
------------------------------------
Norwich: 2
Ashton, 55
McKenzie, 66

Manchester United: 0
------------------------------------
Crystal Palace: 3
Kolkka, 5
Hughes, 73
Johnson, 83 (pen)

Norwich: 3
Ashton, 22, 46
McKenzie, 53, 3
------------------------------------
Norwich: 2
Safri, 68
Ashton, 90

Newcastle: 1
Kluivert 90
------------------------------------
Norwich 1
Ashton, 45 (pen)

Birmingham 0
Sent off: Johnson, 31
------------------------------------

Most of them look pretty important to me, either first goals, only goals or last minute goals, you don't do that regularly if you're an average player, especially not in this league.

Basically he helped them in a big way to 11 points, that gave them a chance of staying up. had he been there from the start of the season and helped them to say... 1 1-0 win as apose to a draw or win... they'd still be in this league.

Of the record i found this...

------------------------------------
Arsenal 7
Van Persie 8
Pires 12, 50
Vieira 37
Edu 70 (pen)
Bergkamp 77
Flamini 85 7

Everton 0
------------------------------------

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:57 am

stu_the_red wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:The point is he done it in every premiership game last year with the likes of Hyypia, Ferdinand, Terry, Gallas etc on your back, what more can he do?

Er...no he hasn't.

I'll have to pick you up on some points here.

Don't forget he only signed for Norwich during the window this time last season. Between then and the end of the season, they played 16, won 5, lost 9 and drew 2.

He hasn't played against Liverpool, hence he's not had the chance to test himself against Hyypia. They lost 3-1 against Chelsea (he didn't get the goal - McKenzie goal from Huckerby assist). He did score against United, but this was at a time when Ferdinand was in his slump, and they were leaking goals all over the place.

I think what you meant to say was that he'd "done it" in under half of Norwich's Premiership fixture list. And he did - to his credit - score 7 goals during this time. But even after being impressed with some of his performances I think it's irresponsible to read too much into that. You can't get the cheque book out and splash big money based on that record.

I'm actually starting to find you a bit tedious with your arguements. Not only do i feel you are biased towards our players but i feel you seem completely blind to the fact an english lad outside the top league is capable of being a top player and you seem to refuse that Dean Ashton of Norwich could possibly be better than the 14million pound Cisse, who just for the record couldn't control a bag of cement.

Stu may I just ask why you find him so tedious is it because he pulled you up on a valid point by saying Ashton had never played against Hyypia or Terry so therefore was never tested against good center halves ?

You do expect everyone to agree with you and you constantly claim your right or you know this and that , or you have played against him or whatever , you constantly bignote yourself because of this.
But when somebody comes along who lives in or near Norfolk AND ACTUALLY WATCHES HIM LIVE ( ASHTON) and has a valid opinion you get knarky and it comes out in your posts, you act like a little kid who wants to be the center of attention all the time.
When you talk purely football you do no what your on about but not 100% of the time , and I agree that Cisse couldnt control a bag of cement :laugh:

.

If it is a striker we're after I've heard Anelka wants a return to the prem and Fenerbahce would be looking to recoup 5 mil back from any possible transfer, for what its worth I think that would be great business especially if we were able to sell Cisse for 7-8 mil.
So in your expert opinion what do you reckon about that then Stu ? Anelka I mean

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:02 am

First of all suggesting that I'm blind to English talent outside the Prem is just f*cking outrageous. I've said that he's a good player. Just because I'm not sucking the lad's lash doesn't mean I don't think he's got something.

Bottom line for me though - spending £5m on him would be a gamble. You'd basically be buying him based on his form in the Championship, and whatever form and quality he may have shown...there's no guarantee that it'll translate. He has very limited Premiership experience, and assuming that he'll arrive as a 1 goal every other game man would be dangerous.

Yes, he's got an all-round game, but this league finds players out every single weekend. If he signs for a top 6 side and he doesn't get his fair share of goals, his place will be in jeopardy. Simple as. You can't walk into a top side and expect to stay in a strike partnership on assists alone. That's just not how it works at this level. Conversely, Cisse's our top scoring striker this season, and listen to what everyone's saying about him.

For a mid-table side, I'm sure he'd get them 15+ a season, but that's because he'd be bought as a main striker and would play pretty much every game he's fit for. If he signed for us, he'd find himself rotated, and that's when I think he'd struggle to assert himself. Big fish in little ponds don't always take well to being a little fish in a big pond. We have Crouch, and logically we'd want a clinical, pacy finisher playing off him. He knows where the goal is, but he's not the quickest. I don't even think he's that much quicker than Crouch. I'd also definitely dispute that he's a better footballer than Crouch. Crouch has an exquisite touch, remarkable for his size, and although Ashton does have good touch and some deft skills in the locker, he's not exactly Rooney in that department. I certainly wouldn't swap Crouch for him, put it that way.

So yeah, he knows where the goal is for Norwich, but - like I've said - the standard in the Championship means that he's almost invited to shoot on sight. I think he'd be excellent for a team like Villa or Blackburn, but - ironically, given the arguments some have presented against Cisse - I just don't see him in a strikeforce that isn't built around him.

by **72-1136150807** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:04 am

Good post.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:30 am

Players with ability don't fail given the right surroundings, circumstances and coaching. Its as simple as that. If they are good enough, they make it.

Ashton is definately good enough. He is an excellent alround player. If some moron manager in the premier league can't get anything out of a player like him they are a waste of time and not worth the money they're paid. All this :censored:

about adaptability and :censored:

winds me up, 2 games you need to see a players quality and thats that.

The lads class. I NEVER use that term lightly, he's CLASS.

As for Anelka, he's another CLASS player. Examples of CLASS players, Alonso, Gerrard, Henry, Gallas, Rooney...

I simply refuse to argue with you about this, you're entitled to think the likes of Cisse is a better player, you can sit there and argue all day, the fact is you're completely and utterly wrong. Ashton would definately in a team like ours score around 25 goals a season with ease. Yet, no-one has the balls to give him a chance, yet when one of the smaller clubs do he nearly single handedly saves them from relegation.

Still, you like you're players who can't trap a bag of cement, run round like a headless chicken, balloon shots and generally play :censored:

bar the odd flukey goal, i like mine to have class, alround ability and the ability to find the net. Thats fair enough...

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:32 am

At the end of the day, people can't see past reputation's, media reports and opinions of so called "experts".

Thats fair enough. However i think sometimes people should stop and listen as apose to jumping to conclusions about things they clearly don't properly understand.

by **Judge** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:55 pm

stu_the_red wrote:Players with ability don't fail given the right surroundings, circumstances and coaching. Its as simple as that. If they are good enough, they make it.

how is it that under houllier with virtually the same spine of players we are doing better, but yet houllier can get lyon playing well

why is that stu??

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:44 pm

stu_the_red wrote:His goals for the record...
------------------------------------
Norwich: 4
Francis, 18
Ashton, 80
McKenzie, 90
Drury, 90

Middlesbrough: 4
Hasselbaink 34, 78
Queudrue 49, 55 4
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

------------------------------------
Crystal Palace: 3
Kolkka, 5
Hughes, 73
Johnson, 83 (pen)

Norwich: 3
Ashton, 22, 46
McKenzie, 53, 3
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

Most of them look pretty important to me, either first goals, only goals or last minute goals, you don't do that regularly if you're an average player, especially not in this league.

Well I'm not one for stats either but based on this Norwich should still be in the Prem. Though they were actually beaten 5-4 at home to Boro, they actually beat Palace 4-3 away. Bizarre nobody at FA headquarters noticed it.

As for Ashton I think he's a good prospect. Seven million quid? not for me, I don't think he's another Shearer. Someone will sign him soon though then we can all see who's calling it right. For me he's a sort of James Beattie/Emile Heskey standerd of player. Time will tell.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:32 pm

Stu, I think this is a very good case in point as to why people struggle to take you seriously. You seem to have this odd delusion that your opinion carries more weight than anyone elses, and I'm afraid that's just not the case.

Ashton has been watched by countless clubs while he's been at Norwich, but no Prem club appear to be actively pursuing him at the moment. My guess is a combination of Norwich pricing him too highly, with Prem managers not willing to spend big for someone with limited experience at the top level.A lot of players known for delivering in front of goal in lower divisions - Earnshaw, Zamora, Boa Morte, f*ck it, even Goater - haven't exactly set the Prem on fire. Yes, players like Phillips and Andy Johnson have made the leap successfully and not looked out of place, but there aren't too many more strikers that have in recent years. Managers know that, and as the goals for column is pretty essential, they're going to be more inclined to bring in a couple of continentals for £2.5m a piece and hope that at least one of them works out.

You can't pay £5m+ for a guy that's only had 16 games in the Prem - Darren Bent got off to a stormer for Charlton earlier this season, but his goals dried up for a bit and his first month or so now looks like a purple patch. Maybe that's what Ashton was having when he first signed for Norwich last season.

My opinion on the guy is based on watching him, up close, a couple of times, and seeing him countless times on TV. I don't know who these "so called experts" you mention are, but I prefer to make my own mind up ta very much. I liked some of what he did, but he didn't blow me out of me seat, so there's no way I'd get too carried away about the guy. Good striker with good link up and hold up play, but nothing particularly outstanding. He looked good for Norwich, but then anyone that didn't put the ball out of play with their first touch looked good for Norwich. If you fail to take into account his surroundings, you're a f*cking mug. Big fish, little pond.He's a good player, but saying he's in the same class as Henry and Anelka is absolutely outrageous.

If I was a Blackburn fan, I'd be hoping the manager had a look and put a bit of £3-£4m in for the guy. I really don't see anyone above their level bothering though, to be honest.

If you think different, get your UEFA coaching badges and show all the Prem managers how it's done.

Liverpool FC Forum

Cisse vs Sinama Pongolle

Cisse vs pongolle

Who is online