Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

So you agree that by not awarding him a penalty they are giving the opposition an unfair advantage and therefore cheating? Yes he was wrong to do what he did yesterday, mainly because he looked foolish and it was embarrassing. But hey, we all do stupid things.
What has happened since the season started has nothing whatsoever to do with things being "clear cut" or not. He is being punished by reputation, not actions, and by rights so is the team because referees are chosing to dismiss legitimate claims. These same claims would, by the way, be seen as fair if they came from different players. Pure and blatant bias and discrimination.
Shocking!

On the first point, if you mean the incident against Norwich where he was bundled over in the box then I agree. For me that was a clear pen. We obviously can't say for sure whether his reputation as a diver, a trouble maker, or whatever caused him not to get that decison, but given how much negative media coverage Suarez has received I think it's a fair possibility that it featured in the ref's mind somewhere and may well have influenced his decision. The cynics will perhaps go further and argue that ref's are making a concious effort to punish Suarez, that there is perhaps even an orchestrated campaign against the club to that effect etc. but I don't go along with any of that. Ref's are given a hard enough time as it is without getting themselves involved in conspiracies. I do however think Ref's have to make a concious effort to reach decisions on the basis of the laws of the game alone; that is, independently of a player's reputation, any previous decisions that may lead to a belief that the game needs 'evening up' and the like. Whether that sense of independence is emphasised enough in football I'm not so sure. I often hear players, commentators and people in the game speculate that ref's give certain decisions in order to 'even things up' i.e. having made a dubious call earlier in the game, so it is definitely a concern. As in so many other professions where decisions have to be made strictly on the basis of a set of rules, a strong ethos of independence is needed on the part of those responsible for the application of those rules in order, ultimately, for fairness and certainty to prevail. That's particularly important for ref's in the game of football, where players, managers and fans alike are all seeking to exert influence over decisions which have to be made in a timely fashion.

[Kharhaz]

Cashley Cole making millions from the game calls the FA a bunch of ***** and the media and fans in general say nothing. He's now dragged in front of the FA and again there is a lack of concern amongst fans. How can our sport be so 2 faced? If your face fits you can bend the rules to the extreme, if there is an agenda against you you're dead in the water.Liverpool club management need to talk to the FA and Refs association to sort this Sh*t out as every week Luis is becoming more and more isolated.

Just imagine if Suarez had tweeted that after his brush with the fa?
He would have been thrown in the tower then executed live on telly
CU'NTS!!!!

Its all brushed under the carpet now isnt it? Well of course it is, the Luis Suarez dive is of greater importance.

There is a clear agenda here against, not Suarez, although being our star foreigner he is being singled out, but against Liverpool Football Club.
For two seasons in a row now, we have had two different managers appealing, if not begging, for the referees to be fair. We have never had to do that, EVER. But the situation today calls for it. Take Suarez, every move he makes is being scrutinized. Not when he is fouled, thats never mentioned, but when he dives, by christ, thats plastered everywhere. Take Shelveys red card, not one person in the media, indeed not one media outlet mentions Evans' two footed challenge, just the deserved red that Shelvey got. Also the penalty united got. Again, not one mention of a dive in the press, just that Johnson brought him down.

Then of course you have Stoke, Huth stamped on Suarez, nothing mentioned. The West Brom match were their player went in two footed, not even a booking. The very first match of the season against West Brom Skrtel is running with the ball, a West Brom player sneaks behind him, nicks the ball then immediately goes down, penalty for West Brom (seriously, watch that again, there is no way in hell that is a penalty).

Suarez against Norwich, should have had a penalty, EVERYBODY saw it, the Norwich player rammed his elbow into Suarez' shoulder, nothing given. Then the Norwich players had the gall to call for a booking to Suarez !

I havent even got close to covering everything thats gone against us, and thats just this season.

However, Luis Suarez dived, so lets all concentrate on that.

[sgs]

I'm having ahard time understanding why this is an issue. Yes Luis dived, the ref saw it as such, did not award a foul, no advantage was therefore gained,either was the game affected in any way by it. End of story.

So why is the media making so much of this and totally ignoring the thuggery of Stoke?

And why is Hansen providing aid and comfort to those who seek to destroy LFC?

[Kenny Kan]

A dive of the sort that Suarez pulled off at the weekend was bound to get more coverage than some of the other incidents because it was so blatant and so threatrical -- there was no 'grey area'. It was wrong and it should be condemned. Players should be encouraged to play to win and to do so fairly, or else what is the true merit of their achievement? I see that people are keen to point to other indicents as though they provide Suarez with some sort of defence. They don't. When Ashley Young went over against Villa a week after winning a suspect pen against QPR, that was equally unacceptable. That incident garnered Young a lot of negative press, but even so, the manner in which the media treat these types of incidents shouldn't prevent people from holding the club and players to an acceptable standard of conduct on the field of play. The alternative is to defend wrongs with other wrongs, in which case the problem never gets properly addressed.

This isn't the first time that Suarez has been guilty of threatrical play. Most people would agree I think that he's a player who has a tendency to go down easily and who occasionally, as against Stoke, gets exposed for attempting an outrageous dive. That needs to stop, not just because it undermines the integrity of the competition, but because it causes him a reputational problem that could, and possibly already has (Norwich), caused him to lose out on decisions where his case was in fact legit. But let's be clear about one other thing: Ref's should make decisions independently of a player's reputation. They shouldn't be trying to 'even things up'. They are human, though, and refereeing decisions often aren't clear-cut, and that puts players who have reputations like Suarez at a disadvantage, particularly when the call is one that could go either way.

What a crock of s.hit. 'A dive was bound to get more coverage' than an elbow or stamp, can you explain this illogical train of thought that you and the media alike reason with - you're obviously are singing from the same hymn sheet so it would be nice to hear why violent conduct doesn't precede a dive.

Suarez, and not for the first time, last week tried the 'fair' way and got him diddly squat. That as you say undermines the integrity of the competition you seek to preserve. Especially, when you bleat integrity then immediately state that it's becoming a "reputational problem". You're happy to criticise Suarez as undermining the game, then say ref's shouldn't judge a player on his reputation but sum it up by basically excusing refs because their human? F.ucking hell, it really does seem one rule for Suarez and another rule for others. NEWSFLASH! Suarez is human too, and when he's disheartened by the fact he isn't getting "fair" decisions go his way and is also getting lumps kicked and stamped out of him, frustration is born. If the letter of the footballing law doesn't stand up and be accountable for pi$$ poor bias reffing decisions and protect it's contestants, do you really expect everyone under those laws to continue pi$$ing against the rain, or rebel?

[Thommo's perm]

These are the type of situations which upset me most. We are in between a rock and a hard place because we are being told to clamp down on a players behaviour while others are behaving worse. If we complain we are accused of encouraging diving, but if we punish Suarez we are condoning cheating by others.
Once again our w@nky media are focusing on Liverpools failure to get in line rather than the disgraceful actions of other clubs. Cashly Hole has had the gall to publicly call the FA tw@ts and is getting leniency because it was in the "heat of the moment" and he has apologised. A senior england and chelsea player who has won numerous prestigious trophies, who is first on the team sheet for club and country, who is recognised across the world as the best left back in football, who is idolised and a role model for millions of children, chose to use such language on a social network for everyone to see. That is one of the most unbelievable stories I have ever seen in my life and the lack of media coverage it gets just shows how much importance things like this have nowadays. There can be no doubt to anyone with a modicum of intelligence that there is a definite agenda against LFC by the media. Whether it is a concerted joint effort by journalists and editors I dont know. Personally I doubt it because theyre not that clever, but like any pack animals they are relentless in their pursuit. I see it like hyenas attacking a lion, whooping and shrieking as they constantly look for weaknesses. We have to be clever and be seen to be playing the "game" by apologising and assuring them that Suarez will be punished for his disgraceful actions. The more we stand up for whats right, the more chance they have to criticise us.
Fake apologies are the order of the day and we should really spread it thick: "were so very, very, very sorry, please accept our full, heartfelt, unreserved, unequivical, huge, massive, humungous, monster, mount everest, pacific ocean apology" That should do it... for now...

[LFC2007]

What a crock of s.hit: 'A dive was bound to get more coverage' than an elbow or stamp, can you explain this illogical train of thought that you and the media alike reason with - you're obviously are singing from the same hymn sheet so it would be nice to hear why violent conduct doesn't precede a dive.

Suarez, and not for the first time, last week tried the 'fair' way and got him diddly squat. That as you say undermines the integrity of the competition you seek to preserve. Especially, when you bleat integrity then immediately state that it's becoming a "reputational problem". You're happy to criticise Suarez as undermining the game, then say ref's shouldn't judge a player on his reputation but sum it up by basically excusing refs because their human? F.ucking hell, it really does seem one rule for Suarez and another rule for others. NEWSFLASH! Suarez is human too, and when he's disheartened by the fact he isn't getting "fair" decisions go his way and is also getting lumps kicked and stamped out of him, frustration is born. If the letter of the footballing law doesn't stand up and be accountable for pi$$ poor bias reffing decisions and protect it's contestants, do you really expect everyone under those laws to continue pi$$ing against the rain, or rebel?

Obviously violent conduct is also totally unacceptable, but since this is the Suarez thread and I'm a Liverpool fan, I chose to focus on our player's embarrassing dive because I have a particular interest in seeing that our own players maintain a high standard of professional conduct on the field of play. That doesn't mean I regard violent conduct any less seriously than a dive, that I don't care whether players at other clubs abide by the rules (I have already mentioned Ashley Young's dive), nor does it mean that I think the media coverage of the incident has been even-handed by comparison with other incidents. But I do want to see him cut out this ridiculous nonsense and get on with the game. As for the media response, I wasn't defending the supposedly skewed coverage, merely describing the reality of it that seems to be the source of much exasperation amongst our support. A player as controversial as Suarez is going to garner more media coverage when he goes and does something as embarrassing as to attempt a reverse Forsby flop on the field of play than another player who dives, who plays for a lower profile club, and who doesn't come with all the baggage.

As for the ref's, I didn't say that it was an 'excuse' for them to be influenced by a player's reputation when making a decision. I said that ref's shouldn't make refereeing decisions on any other basis than on the laws of the game, that they need to make a concious effort to make sure that's the case and that that can't be achieved without a strong ethos of independence within the refereeing profession. That's why it concerns me somewhat to hear managers, players etc. speak of ref's 'evening things up' as though to imply they are intentionally seeking to redress an earlier mistake by giving a favourable decision to the other team. That's a similar argument to the one that you seem to be advocating in defence of Suarez. Both are ridiculous: The way to correct a mistake is not to make another mistake of equal and opposite effect.

You're right that I said that ref's are human. And, being human, whatever efforts they make to guard against bias, they can't absolutely 100% guarantee that what they have read in the press, seen on the TV, heard from friends and family about footballing matters won't influence them at some level when it comes to making a decision. That's particularly true in a game as high pressured as football. You're also right that Suarez is a human  . The difference is that he can, if he wants to, completely eradicate the play acting and threatrics from his game by making a determination to stay on his feet and play an honest game from now on. That he's been the victim of bad calls in the past is no excuse to stoop to the level of the Nani's and Ronaldo's of this world by trying to cheat (or 'rebel' as you put it) his way to a fairer deal. That's only going to compound the problem and is rather like saying an athlete competing in a field riddled with drug cheats is justified in taking drugs himself in order to establish a fair competition. If you can't beat 'em join 'em...and do even more damage to the sport.

[Waldo]

He doesn't help himself. Sunday's incident in the box was a total embarressment quite frankly!

Great player but he needs to stop this as it's undermining his undoubted ability.

[Boxscarf]

This rule about taking no action in the aftermath of the match, because a referee has or has not acted needs to be changed. Robert Huth should be facing a 3 match ban and a hefty fine for violent conduct. In fact the fella should have been sent off in the match, quite how he remained on the pitch is beyond me. Clearly Tony Pulis needs to look at this own squad before casting stones. However, he is right about simulation and he had every right to feel aggrieved with Suarez's dive. Had we gained a penalty from that and scored it, we'd have won the match in a dishonest manner. That's not the way in which I want to win football matches.

As for Luis Suarez, the fella has lost my support, I can find no basis in which to continually defend what I perceive as the indefensible. Liverpool have had a whole host of legimiate decisions go against us this season and it's because of Suarez's reputation, a reputation he has formed himself. In the last year he has become public enemy #1 in England. Instead of getting his head down, staying on his feet and playing football, he's walking around with a 'woe is me' attitude and is continuing to simulate in matches. Now he's not the only one doing it, plenty of players are doing it, United being by far the worst club for it, but I am not bothered about what other players are doing in other clubs. I don't support any other club other than Liverpool, so my focus is on what we're doing and Suarez's reputation has cost us legitimate decisions this season and those decisions (particularly against United) have proven costly.

Roger Hunt is spot on, Luis needs to start staying on his feet, he goes to ground everytime someone brushes against him and his swan lake impressions win himself no favours whatsoever. He needs to have a long, hard look in the mirror and change his attitude and conduct. If he doesn't, then he'll have to go.

[Kenny Kan]

That's a similar argument to the one that you seem to be advocating in defence of Suarez. Both are ridiculous: The way to correct a mistake is not to make another mistake of equal and opposite effect.

Interesting you take my words, twist them so much and put more spin on them than Nadal does with a tennis ball. Your surely not that stupid enough? to believe I'm advocating any such thing of the sort. I'm advocating fair and just decisions being made by refs, i.e. if Huth decides to stamp on Suarez he should be pulled up on it by the ref, if Suarez is getting lumps kicked out of him by Shawcross, Huth and the dogs Pulis puts out then they too should be reprimanded by the ref.

Then you have the media in which you seem to agree that this dive by Suarez was bound to get most coverage because "it was so blatant and theatrical" as opposed to violent aggression.     I can't fathom that one out of yours and no amount of "objective" bull$hit you put on it justifies your earlier claims which appear that the media were right to single out Suarez.

I know refs are human, I know Suarez is human, I know I'm human but the question here is LFC2007 - are you a bot?

[Ola Mr Benitez]

This rule about taking no action in the aftermath of the match, because a referee has or has not acted needs to be changed. Robert Huth should be facing a 3 match ban and a hefty fine for violent conduct. In fact the fella should have been sent off in the match, quite how he remained on the pitch is beyond me. Clearly Tony Pulis needs to look at this own squad before casting stones. However, he is right about simulation and he had every right to feel aggrieved with Suarez's dive. Had we gained a penalty from that and scored it, we'd have won the match in a dishonest manner. That's not the way in which I want to win football matches.

As for Luis Suarez, the fella has lost my support, I can find no basis in which to continually defend what I perceive as the indefensible. Liverpool have had a whole host of legimiate decisions go against us this season and it's because of Suarez's reputation, a reputation he has formed himself. In the last year he has become public enemy #1 in England. Instead of getting his head down, staying on his feet and playing football, he's walking around with a 'woe is me' attitude and is continuing to simulate in matches. Now he's not the only one doing it, plenty of players are doing it, United being by far the worst club for it, but I am not bothered about what other players are doing in other clubs. I don't support any other club other than Liverpool, so my focus is on what we're doing and Suarez's reputation has cost us legitimate decisions this season and those decisions (particularly against United) have proven costly.

Roger Hunt is spot on, Luis needs to start staying on his feet, he goes to ground everytime someone brushes against him and his swan lake impressions win himself no favours whatsoever. He needs to have a long, hard look in the mirror and change his attitude and conduct. If he doesn't, then he'll have to go.

Ive got to say this is exactly how I feel.  He doesnt get decisions but the way he dives makes it hard for us to defend the legitimate ones. He has to stay on his feet and then we will have some moral high ground to stand on

[Kenny Kan]

As for Luis Suarez, the fella has lost my support, I can find no basis in which to continually defend what I perceive as the indefensible. Liverpool have had a whole host of legimiate decisions go against us this season and it's because of Suarez's reputation, a reputation he has formed himself. In the last year he has become public enemy #1 in England. Instead of getting his head down, staying on his feet and playing football, he's walking around with a 'woe is me' attitude and is continuing to simulate in matches. Now he's not the only one doing it, plenty of players are doing it, United being by far the worst club for it, but I am not bothered about what other players are doing in other clubs. I don't support any other club other than Liverpool, so my focus is on what we're doing and Suarez's reputation has cost us legitimate decisions this season and those decisions (particularly against United) have proven costly   

You've repeatedly highlighted the issue which you claim is in Suarez's case "indefensible": when he is being judged on a reputation! Do you actually advocate a ref make decisions based on a player's reputation because it sure as hell sounds like you f.ucking do. You're happy to sweep this under the carpet and continue to stick it to Suarez still, nice swan Cyril. 

[Kenny Kan]

"What's Worse?
Luis Suarez's comical, cynical and plain cheating dive against Stoke obviously receives a lot of coverage in the morning press. It's the lead for the match reports in The Times, The Daily Mirror and The S*n, it's on the back pages of The Daily Express and The Daily Star and the front page of the sports pullout in The Daily Telegraph.

Of course, all of this was down to the post-match comments from Tony Pulis, who once again p*ssed and whined about diving in his press conference, presumably in the safe knowledge that none of his players have ever simulated in their lives. Well, apart from Jermaine Pennant, obviously.

What Pulis was less keen to talk about - and indeed he apparently left the media briefing before he could be asked about it - was the rather physical approach taken by his side at Anfield. Indeed, Pulis made reference to an incident when Jonathan Walters barged Glen Johnson to the ground (calling it a 'proper, proper challenge', and we all know what he means there), but Johnson got up without much fuss, with Pulis basically thanking the opposition for not complaining after being the victim of their bullying.

And it seems Pulis's comments have done exactly the trick in distracting from his team's approach, particularly Robert Huth's stamp on Suarez's chest in the first half, which was fortunate to only leave a mark on the Uruguayan rather than anything more serious. EDITED sentence.

The Daily Mirror, The Daily Star, The Times, The Independent, The Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph, as well as The Press Association report carried by F365, make no reference to the incident at all.

So you have to ask the question; which is more serious? Falling over to try and win a penalty, or trying to bully someone out of a game by stamping on his torso? Both are cheating, but only one of them is likely to crack a rib.

Still, keep talking Tony. Your policy of flapping for the press in order to distract from your team's thuggery seems to be working."

http://www.football365.com/mediawatch/8 ... Mediawatch

Seems like many Pool "fans" on here agree with Pulis and the media more broadly. Talk about swallowing sensationalism. F.ucking idiots.

[Kenny Kan]

F.uck me, I had to dig and find sense on this from an Arsenal fan 

From an Arsenal fan's perspective, this sort of ***** is hardly new. He deflected attention away from the horror tackle on Ramsey by repeatedly talking about how Shawcross was in tears and how his mum drove him home. He's a coward really. And every time we play them now, Ramsey is booed and Wenger is called a paedophile. Whenever he's asked about the chanting and booing, Pulis always claims he can't hear anything, f*cking T*ss*r. The coward dare not offend his fans. He's now doing the same thing again, making sure all the attention is on the Suarez dive as opposed to the disgraceful way in which his players went about kicking the Sh*t out of him for 90 minutes.

And the cheek of him to talk about diving and cheating in the first place? Watch Jonathan Walters go down the second anybody touches him, Stoke purposefully send him out to win freekicks in dangerous areas. And when Crouch used his hands twice to score against City, does that sort of intentional cheating deserve retrospective action and a 3 match ban?

He's one of the most detestable people in football and I'll celebrate the day these ***** get relegated.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/ind ... c=298651.0

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

This rule about taking no action in the aftermath of the match, because a referee has or has not acted needs to be changed. Robert Huth should be facing a 3 match ban and a hefty fine for violent conduct. In fact the fella should have been sent off in the match, quite how he remained on the pitch is beyond me. Clearly Tony Pulis needs to look at this own squad before casting stones. However, he is right about simulation and he had every right to feel aggrieved with Suarez's dive. Had we gained a penalty from that and scored it, we'd have won the match in a dishonest manner. That's not the way in which I want to win football matches.

As for Luis Suarez, the fella has lost my support, I can find no basis in which to continually defend what I perceive as the indefensible. Liverpool have had a whole host of legimiate decisions go against us this season and it's because of Suarez's reputation, a reputation he has formed himself. In the last year he has become public enemy #1 in England. Instead of getting his head down, staying on his feet and playing football, he's walking around with a 'woe is me' attitude and is continuing to simulate in matches. Now he's not the only one doing it, plenty of players are doing it, United being by far the worst club for it, but I am not bothered about what other players are doing in other clubs. I don't support any other club other than Liverpool, so my focus is on what we're doing and Suarez's reputation has cost us legitimate decisions this season and those decisions (particularly against United) have proven costly.

Roger Hunt is spot on, Luis needs to start staying on his feet, he goes to ground everytime someone brushes against him and his swan lake impressions win himself no favours whatsoever. He needs to have a long, hard look in the mirror and change his attitude and conduct. If he doesn't, then he'll have to go.

the F.A didnt take retrospective action because the incident was included in the ref`s report, he saw what happened, the ref just thought it was an accidental clash.
re suarez, he wont stop trying to buy free kicks and pens because every other player in the league wont stop trying to buy free kicks and pens. what suarez does wrong is he makes it too obvious. the real message to luis is dont stop cheating, just dont be so theatrical.
i actually dont blame the players, in practically every top flight sport where the stakes are high players and clubs find ways of bending the rules. look at rugby, wing forwards in rugby union have made an art out of bending the rules and look at that incident where they used blood capsules to make a substitution, wasnt there an incident where the england coaches swapped the official match ball because wilkinson was struggling to kick penalties as well?
in formula one they`ve had all sorts of incidents including alleged spying. in tennis there have been concerns about players calling trainers out on to the court, breaking up play (for up to 6 minutes) when their opponent is playing well.
in cricket there have been all sorts of alligations ranging from using coke bottle tops and dirt in the pocket to rough up balls to underarm bowling when the opposition needs a 6.
gamesmanship will always be part of sport, what form it takes just depends on the rules of the sport.
years ago diving wasnt a big problem in football because there was a lot of contact allowed in the game, the `gamesmanship` years ago came in the form of players kicking f**k out of the opposition, it was pointless throwing yourself on the floor looking to get someone booked/sent off because hardly anyone ever got sent off, tommy smith kicked lumps out of players for 18 seasons at anfield and was sent off once, and that was for dissent.
fifa and uefa have made a rod for their own backs by turning the sport into a non contact game.
in a multi billion dollar sport there is going to be gamesmanship, thats just a fact, especially when you can earn millions in the prem but just a few thousand in the championship, when the stakes are that high players are going to do what it takes to win.
if fifa and uefa dont like diving then change the rules and the gamesmanship will take on a different form, but it will always be there.

[fivecups]

Cashley Cole making millions from the game calls the FA a bunch of ***** and the media and fans in general say nothing. He's now dragged in front of the FA and again there is a lack of concern amongst fans. How can our sport be so 2 faced? If your face fits you can bend the rules to the extreme, if there is an agenda against you you're dead in the water.Liverpool club management need to talk to the FA and Refs association to sort this Sh*t out as every week Luis is becoming more and more isolated.

Just imagine if Suarez had tweeted that after his brush with the fa?
He would have been thrown in the tower then executed live on telly
CU'NTS!!!!

Its all brushed under the carpet now isnt it? Well of course it is, the Luis Suarez dive is of greater importance.

There is a clear agenda here against, not Suarez, although being our star foreigner he is being singled out, but against Liverpool Football Club.
For two seasons in a row now, we have had two different managers appealing, if not begging, for the referees to be fair. We have never had to do that, EVER. But the situation today calls for it. Take Suarez, every move he makes is being scrutinized. Not when he is fouled, thats never mentioned, but when he dives, by christ, thats plastered everywhere. Take Shelveys red card, not one person in the media, indeed not one media outlet mentions Evans' two footed challenge, just the deserved red that Shelvey got. Also the penalty united got. Again, not one mention of a dive in the press, just that Johnson brought him down.

Then of course you have Stoke, Huth stamped on Suarez, nothing mentioned. The West Brom match were their player went in two footed, not even a booking. The very first match of the season against West Brom Skrtel is running with the ball, a West Brom player sneaks behind him, nicks the ball then immediately goes down, penalty for West Brom (seriously, watch that again, there is no way in hell that is a penalty).

Suarez against Norwich, should have had a penalty, EVERYBODY saw it, the Norwich player rammed his elbow into Suarez' shoulder, nothing given. Then the Norwich players had the gall to call for a booking to Suarez !

I havent even got close to covering everything thats gone against us, and thats just this season.

However, Luis Suarez dived, so lets all concentrate on that.

In fairness Kharhaz, Ashley Cole had the strength to look the chairman of the FA in the eye and apologise, that took guts. He's not a bad lad really, and he's on for 100 caps after all.