Liverpool FC Forum

[eds]

well what makes me shake my head in disgust is when whoppers who have probably never even seen the ground in their lives or have never been to liverpool or understand the culture of the city or the club think just because they chose to support this club it gives them a right to turn this club into a chelsea or an arsenal or somewhere else with a fickle fanbase.
if someone supports this club the least they can do is respect it`s culture and traditions, most fans from around the country and the world do, they understand the culture of the club because they`ve took the time to learn about it.
if you dont like me telling posters to stop having a go at the manager and to get behind the team then tough, if you were on the kop in the 60`s / 70`s and started to have a go at the manager you would have been told by dozens of people around you in no uncertain terms where to go, just like it happened to me tons of times like when i moaned about why we never seem to have any skillfull players like tony currie or frank worthington.
it`s not about me thinking i`m a better fan than anyone else it`s about me doing what i was taught to do 40 years ago - when times get tough circle the wagons and back the manager and the team.

Yet again your post is illogical and emotionally charged.

First of all please start addressing these "whoopers" that people are posting on this forum that have upset you so much. Also can you provide concrete evidence that they meet the "not a real fan" criteria you have been so selective on (i.e. visiting Anfield, understinding the history of the club)?

You won't be able to because you can't substantiate anything you write as its full of generalisms and sweeping statements, in other words you are simply a bulls***ting WUM. If someone were to conduct an audit of fans coming on this forum and posting, I would probably guess 80-90% know what they are talking about (based on what I read). I don't know whats funnier the fact that you are getting upset at the minority of numpties who don't know what they are talking about (most clued in fans don't even pay attention to them) or the fact that MANY fans disagree with you and your twisted fantaticism.

When things get tough, rational people discuss what the problems are. Hence the whole point of this forum! What you are doing is emotionally supporting a blind clause by having illogical faith in thinking that things will get generally better.

Just because people disagree with your backwards myopic view of what support means, doesn't make them "enemies" of Liverpool! Until you come out with something logical and solid to counter argue why Kenny should stay beyond this season, most forum members will just view you as a self-serving prat thinking that you are better "fan" then anyone else. Congrats here is a gold star sticker to stick on your head, you brave little trooper you.

One last thing. Liverpool fans no matter which country they live in, which religion they follow, what age they are, are liverpool fans through and through! So on behalf of the millions of fans that HAVE NEVER visited Anfield or are too young to have lived in the glory days, kindly f**K off!

[Kharhaz]

couldn't give a monkey's what that idiot has to say, the sunday sun soul selling tw@t.

What he said.

[heimdall]

eds you are my new hero on this forum. Not sure whether you appreciate that or not 

I do always try to state my case and sometimes I go to far, I apologise for that but I do love this club and passionately want to see it improve, but what I see now is a gradual slide away from greatness which is so frustrating.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

well what makes me shake my head in disgust is when whoppers who have probably never even seen the ground in their lives or have never been to liverpool or understand the culture of the city or the club think just because they chose to support this club it gives them a right to turn this club into a chelsea or an arsenal or somewhere else with a fickle fanbase.
if someone supports this club the least they can do is respect it`s culture and traditions, most fans from around the country and the world do, they understand the culture of the club because they`ve took the time to learn about it.
if you dont like me telling posters to stop having a go at the manager and to get behind the team then tough, if you were on the kop in the 60`s / 70`s and started to have a go at the manager you would have been told by dozens of people around you in no uncertain terms where to go, just like it happened to me tons of times like when i moaned about why we never seem to have any skillfull players like tony currie or frank worthington.
it`s not about me thinking i`m a better fan than anyone else it`s about me doing what i was taught to do 40 years ago - when times get tough circle the wagons and back the manager and the team.

Yet again your post is illogical and emotionally charged.

First of all please start addressing these "whoopers" that people are posting on this forum that have upset you so much. Also can you provide concrete evidence that they meet the "not a real fan" criteria you have been so selective on (i.e. visiting Anfield, understinding the history of the club)?

You won't be able to because you can't substantiate anything you write as its full of generalisms and sweeping statements, in other words you are simply a bulls***ting WUM. If someone were to conduct an audit of fans coming on this forum and posting, I would probably guess 80-90% know what they are talking about (based on what I read). I don't know whats funnier the fact that you are getting upset at the minority of numpties who don't know what they are talking about (most clued in fans don't even pay attention to them) or the fact that MANY fans disagree with you and your twisted fantaticism.

When things get tough, rational people discuss what the problems are. Hence the whole point of this forum! What you are doing is emotionally supporting a blind clause by having illogical faith in thinking that things will get generally better.

Just because people disagree with your backwards myopic view of what support means, doesn't make them "enemies" of Liverpool! Until you come out with something logical and solid to counter argue why Kenny should stay beyond this season, most forum members will just view you as a self-serving prat thinking that you are better "fan" then anyone else. Congrats here is a gold star sticker to stick on your head, you brave little trooper you.

One last thing. Liverpool fans no matter which country they live in, which religion they follow, what age they are, are liverpool fans through and through! So on behalf of the millions of fans that HAVE NEVER visited Anfield or are too young to have lived in the glory days, kindly f**K off!

a whopper is like that heimdall whatever his name is who was calling for benitez to go and now he wants dalglish to go and benitez to come back!
i`ve already said umpteen times in posts the reasons why i think dalglish should get longer, i`ve questioned wether the signings everyone is blaming him for are 100% his, i`ve posted links to articles where comoli explains how the likes of henderson and downing were bought using the moneyball theory (does that sound like how dalglish`s works?), i`ve questioned wether a manager who got off a cruise liner two weeks earlier to take up a interim job would be given £60m to spend on whoever he likes by owners who specifically employed someone on the recommendation of billy `moneyball` beane to recruit players like he did at spurs using methods the owners were keen on.
i`ve mentioned that it would be very harsh to sack a manager who has won us our first piece of silverware in 6 years and got us to our first f.a cup final in 6 years as well and i`ve mentioned how managers who had tremendous success at other clubs often went through times so bad that they were on the verge of the sack (bobby robson tried to hand his resignation in at ipswich during his early years because the results were that bad and he didnt think he could take them any further, ferguson had banners inside of old trafford telling him to do one and kendall had cushions thrown at him inside goodison and fans were handing `kendall out` leaflets at the turnstyles at goodison.....all of them went onto tremendous success, even moyes just escaped being relegated a season after finishing 7th but he went on to get 4th)
the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones.
i wrote all that many times in different posts so i dont know why you are saying i`m only backing kenny with emotional arguments.
to be honest you dont deserve a civil reply after your last line but i`m writing one anyway so i can explain my position to the people who want dalglish out.

[heimdall]

Why am I a whopper for thinking that Rafa would do a better job than kenny. I have calmly, in the fact of a ridiculous amount of abuse, explained that at the time Rafa had lost the plot through frustration and had to go. I have also explained that no other top class manager would come to us at the moment, certainly no one better than Rafa.
The thing is that I have the ability to change my opinion and be flexible, I evaluated all possibilities and at the moment Rafa coming back in as manager is by far the best option for the club, I just hope the owners agree with me and aren't held back by sentimental, rose tinted over-emotional thoughts.

[Thommo's perm]

Rafa lost the plot
We need some evidence that hes found it again

[Reg]

Of course he lost the plot, even teh most ardent Rafa supporter would agree to that - who wouldn't have under teh obscene pressure he was under from the owners, parry, press and fans? Personally I dont understand why he'd want to come back - sit back in Caldy mate and count your millions.

[maguskwt]

Rafa lost the plot
We need some evidence that hes found it again

He's got a plot in Liverpool doesn't he?...

you mean he couldn't find it??? use google map for that...

[eds]

a whopper is like that heimdall whatever his name is who was calling for benitez to go and now he wants dalglish to go and benitez to come back!
i`ve already said umpteen times in posts the reasons why i think dalglish should get longer, i`ve questioned wether the signings everyone is blaming him for are 100% his, i`ve posted links to articles where comoli explains how the likes of henderson and downing were bought using the moneyball theory (does that sound like how dalglish`s works?), i`ve questioned wether a manager who got off a cruise liner two weeks earlier to take up a interim job would be given £60m to spend on whoever he likes by owners who specifically employed someone on the recommendation of billy `moneyball` beane to recruit players like he did at spurs using methods the owners were keen on.
i`ve mentioned that it would be very harsh to sack a manager who has won us our first piece of silverware in 6 years and got us to our first f.a cup final in 6 years as well and i`ve mentioned how managers who had tremendous success at other clubs often went through times so bad that they were on the verge of the sack (bobby robson tried to hand his resignation in at ipswich during his early years because the results were that bad and he didnt think he could take them any further, ferguson had banners inside of old trafford telling him to do one and kendall had cushions thrown at him inside goodison and fans were handing `kendall out` leaflets at the turnstyles at goodison.....all of them went onto tremendous success, even moyes just escaped being relegated a season after finishing 7th but he went on to get 4th)
the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones.
i wrote all that many times in different posts so i dont know why you are saying i`m only backing kenny with emotional arguments.
to be honest you dont deserve a civil reply after your last line but i`m writing one anyway so i can explain my position to the people who want dalglish out.

I will let you reply to Heimdall in a seperate post about that "whooper". If he changes his mind on Benitez that's up to him, if he can back it up, good on him. But you should argue something on its merits rather then throwing in the "real fan" rubbish into your posts, that way people won't get so wound up, like I did with my last sentence in my last post.

Now back to the argument of why some of us are continuing to support Kenny and some of us want a new start. A lot of what you are saying seems to be unjustly taking the blame off Kenny. Are you saying that he is "hardly" responsible for our poor signings? For our poor run of league results? And not getting the best out the players when 4th place is on the line? You can throw in all the moneyball analogies you want but the buck starts with and ends with Dalglish. He was the one who signed off on Adam, Downing, Henderson and Carroll. Whether it is was Comoli coming to him about them or not, does not excuse Kenny as he is manager.

We don't care what he was personally doing before he took the role on as manager, once he accepted the role it was his responsibility to improve it from the mess that Hodgson and twiddlee dee and twiddle dum left us in. The simple truth is, he hasn't. Sure we improved at the end of last season, but as harsh as it sounds I think this was due to having new owners, a club legend back and a positive dressing room after Judas had left. All this created a false expectation of things to come. As soon as I heard the names of Adam, Downing and Henderson coming in at the start of the season, my heart sank and I knew we had no chance on getting 4th. Reading the posts back then, I wasn't the only one.

No one is asking Kenny to get sacked, of all the people on this forum I think there is a general consensus that people either want him to stay or people want him to step down at the end of the season. I also think that your assertion of "the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones" is completely flawed. Teams have success beause they have successful managers NOT because they are given long periods of time to succeed. Otherwise any wally could come off the street and say to the 20 premiership clubs, "look give me a few years to bed the new signings in, if we get relegated, have faith in me because things are going to turn around, as long as I have a few decades to keep building" .......   

[eds]

eds you are my new hero on this forum. Not sure whether you appreciate that or not 

I do always try to state my case and sometimes I go to far, I apologise for that but I do love this club and passionately want to see it improve, but what I see now is a gradual slide away from greatness which is so frustrating.

Haha thanks dude, I think everyone that posts on this forum is a passionate reds fan. Whether we are right or wrong, doesn't make us any less of a fan. 

[Thommo's perm]

I do always try to state my case and sometimes I go to far, I apologise for that but I do love this club and passionately want to see it improve, but what I see now is a gradual slide away from greatness which is so frustrating.

What do you mean by "gradual slide from greatness"?

[heimdall]

I do always try to state my case and sometimes I go to far, I apologise for that but I do love this club and passionately want to see it improve, but what I see now is a gradual slide away from greatness which is so frustrating.

What do you mean by "gradual slide from greatness"?

?? I mean in terms of the league, we are now no where near top 4 in the league, and that is where the status and money is, the longer we are outside the top 4 the more other teams will advance past us, e.g Tottenham, and if it goes on long enough all our past achievements will fade into the mists of time.
And surprising as this might be to some people winning the league cup does not get a whole lot of attention outside the UK.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

a whopper is like that heimdall whatever his name is who was calling for benitez to go and now he wants dalglish to go and benitez to come back!
i`ve already said umpteen times in posts the reasons why i think dalglish should get longer, i`ve questioned wether the signings everyone is blaming him for are 100% his, i`ve posted links to articles where comoli explains how the likes of henderson and downing were bought using the moneyball theory (does that sound like how dalglish`s works?), i`ve questioned wether a manager who got off a cruise liner two weeks earlier to take up a interim job would be given £60m to spend on whoever he likes by owners who specifically employed someone on the recommendation of billy `moneyball` beane to recruit players like he did at spurs using methods the owners were keen on.
i`ve mentioned that it would be very harsh to sack a manager who has won us our first piece of silverware in 6 years and got us to our first f.a cup final in 6 years as well and i`ve mentioned how managers who had tremendous success at other clubs often went through times so bad that they were on the verge of the sack (bobby robson tried to hand his resignation in at ipswich during his early years because the results were that bad and he didnt think he could take them any further, ferguson had banners inside of old trafford telling him to do one and kendall had cushions thrown at him inside goodison and fans were handing `kendall out` leaflets at the turnstyles at goodison.....all of them went onto tremendous success, even moyes just escaped being relegated a season after finishing 7th but he went on to get 4th)
the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones.
i wrote all that many times in different posts so i dont know why you are saying i`m only backing kenny with emotional arguments.
to be honest you dont deserve a civil reply after your last line but i`m writing one anyway so i can explain my position to the people who want dalglish out.

I will let you reply to Heimdall in a seperate post about that "whooper". If he changes his mind on Benitez that's up to him, if he can back it up, good on him. But you should argue something on its merits rather then throwing in the "real fan" rubbish into your posts, that way people won't get so wound up, like I did with my last sentence in my last post.

Now back to the argument of why some of us are continuing to support Kenny and some of us want a new start. A lot of what you are saying seems to be unjustly taking the blame off Kenny. Are you saying that he is "hardly" responsible for our poor signings? For our poor run of league results? And not getting the best out the players when 4th place is on the line? You can throw in all the moneyball analogies you want but the buck starts with and ends with Dalglish. He was the one who signed off on Adam, Downing, Henderson and Carroll. Whether it is was Comoli coming to him about them or not, does not excuse Kenny as he is manager.

We don't care what he was personally doing before he took the role on as manager, once he accepted the role it was his responsibility to improve it from the mess that Hodgson and twiddlee dee and twiddle dum left us in. The simple truth is, he hasn't. Sure we improved at the end of last season, but as harsh as it sounds I think this was due to having new owners, a club legend back and a positive dressing room after Judas had left. All this created a false expectation of things to come. As soon as I heard the names of Adam, Downing and Henderson coming in at the start of the season, my heart sank and I knew we had no chance on getting 4th. Reading the posts back then, I wasn't the only one.

No one is asking Kenny to get sacked, of all the people on this forum I think there is a general consensus that people either want him to stay or people want him to step down at the end of the season. I also think that your assertion of "the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones" is completely flawed. Teams have success beause they have successful managers NOT because they are given long periods of time to succeed. Otherwise any wally could come off the street and say to the 20 premiership clubs, "look give me a few years to bed the new signings in, if we get relegated, have faith in me because things are going to turn around, as long as I have a few decades to keep building" .......   

but we are not giving any wally off the street time, we are giving a manager who was literally seconds away from 4 titles in 5 years time, dalglish also got us to 3 F.A cup finals (when they were huge occasions) and a league cup final in those 5 years, when he won the double in 86 it had only been previously done twice that century. he is one of only a handful of managers who have won the title with 2 different clubs and as we know he has won us our first piece of silverware in 6 seasons. he is the only manager in our history to win every domestic trophy. he is a good manager alright.
you may say that the buck stops with dalglish over the signings but i dont, i dont think kenny had much to do with recruiting the players and i dont think it was him who negotiated the high transfer fee`s we paid for the players. when dalglish arrived at the club he was not in the running to be the long term manager, the owners were making noises in the press about wanting someone younger and comoli went through the criteria that potential future liverpool manager `s should meet in interviews when kenny was actually in charge. in other words while kenny was running the team comoli was going onto the telly talking about what attributes the next manager of the club should have, they were advertising his job. kenny had only been back 2 - 3 weeks when carroll and suarez signed, i dont believe the owners and comoli would give an interim manager who had been in charge a matter of days £60m to spend especially considering they werent even planning to keep him in the long run.
the signings of downing and henderson have comoli`s fingerprints all over them as well, they were signed because of their impressive stats.
dalglish has made mistakes this season, lots of them, his team selections are sometimes baffling and he seems to drop andy carroll just whenever he seems to be playing himself into form, but i dont think dalglish has done enough wrong to be sacked.
if this was 4 or 5 years into his reign then maybe yes, but he inherited a team that had been $h1T.E for 2 seasons and a team that had won 2 away games in a calender year, dalglish hasnt even completed a full season yet.

[metalhead]

a whopper is like that heimdall whatever his name is who was calling for benitez to go and now he wants dalglish to go and benitez to come back!
i`ve already said umpteen times in posts the reasons why i think dalglish should get longer, i`ve questioned wether the signings everyone is blaming him for are 100% his, i`ve posted links to articles where comoli explains how the likes of henderson and downing were bought using the moneyball theory (does that sound like how dalglish`s works?), i`ve questioned wether a manager who got off a cruise liner two weeks earlier to take up a interim job would be given £60m to spend on whoever he likes by owners who specifically employed someone on the recommendation of billy `moneyball` beane to recruit players like he did at spurs using methods the owners were keen on.
i`ve mentioned that it would be very harsh to sack a manager who has won us our first piece of silverware in 6 years and got us to our first f.a cup final in 6 years as well and i`ve mentioned how managers who had tremendous success at other clubs often went through times so bad that they were on the verge of the sack (bobby robson tried to hand his resignation in at ipswich during his early years because the results were that bad and he didnt think he could take them any further, ferguson had banners inside of old trafford telling him to do one and kendall had cushions thrown at him inside goodison and fans were handing `kendall out` leaflets at the turnstyles at goodison.....all of them went onto tremendous success, even moyes just escaped being relegated a season after finishing 7th but he went on to get 4th)
the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones.
i wrote all that many times in different posts so i dont know why you are saying i`m only backing kenny with emotional arguments.
to be honest you dont deserve a civil reply after your last line but i`m writing one anyway so i can explain my position to the people who want dalglish out.

I will let you reply to Heimdall in a seperate post about that "whooper". If he changes his mind on Benitez that's up to him, if he can back it up, good on him. But you should argue something on its merits rather then throwing in the "real fan" rubbish into your posts, that way people won't get so wound up, like I did with my last sentence in my last post.

Now back to the argument of why some of us are continuing to support Kenny and some of us want a new start. A lot of what you are saying seems to be unjustly taking the blame off Kenny. Are you saying that he is "hardly" responsible for our poor signings? For our poor run of league results? And not getting the best out the players when 4th place is on the line? You can throw in all the moneyball analogies you want but the buck starts with and ends with Dalglish. He was the one who signed off on Adam, Downing, Henderson and Carroll. Whether it is was Comoli coming to him about them or not, does not excuse Kenny as he is manager.

We don't care what he was personally doing before he took the role on as manager, once he accepted the role it was his responsibility to improve it from the mess that Hodgson and twiddlee dee and twiddle dum left us in. The simple truth is, he hasn't. Sure we improved at the end of last season, but as harsh as it sounds I think this was due to having new owners, a club legend back and a positive dressing room after Judas had left. All this created a false expectation of things to come. As soon as I heard the names of Adam, Downing and Henderson coming in at the start of the season, my heart sank and I knew we had no chance on getting 4th. Reading the posts back then, I wasn't the only one.

No one is asking Kenny to get sacked, of all the people on this forum I think there is a general consensus that people either want him to stay or people want him to step down at the end of the season. I also think that your assertion of "the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones" is completely flawed. Teams have success beause they have successful managers NOT because they are given long periods of time to succeed. Otherwise any wally could come off the street and say to the 20 premiership clubs, "look give me a few years to bed the new signings in, if we get relegated, have faith in me because things are going to turn around, as long as I have a few decades to keep building" .......   

Your basing theories out of nothing, ''if we get relegated'', you look into the negatives without looking at the positives (and yes there are plenty of positives). ynwasdaeads has a point about the signings, he backed it up with some articles regarding Moneyball tactics and how Comolli is identifying players. It's NOT Kenny's job to identify players, it's Comolli's, he is the one who gets the list, picks the players then Kenny has the final decision. Yes Kenny has part to blame in his final say, but he isn't the one negotiating the fees and scouting the players, if so, then what is Comolli's role in all of this? Answer me this question, would an owner give 35m quid to a caretaker manager to spend it on Andy Carroll? WOULD HE?

I also think that your assertion of "the teams that give managers time are often the successfull ones" is completely flawed. Teams have success beause they have successful managers NOT because they are given long periods of time to succeed.

They gave Sir Alex Ferguson 6 years, so how is it flawed? Look at Chelsea, Abrahomavic is so obssessed with the Champions League that in his 10 year as a Chelsea chairman while spending obscene amount of money, sacking a lot of managers and hiring new ones he hasn't won it yet. If he kept a bit of patience in Ancelotti or Mourinho he would have won it. Look at Alan Curbishley when he managed at Charlton, he built a legacy there because he stayed with them for 15 years, he got them up from the championship into the premier league and even when Charlton got relegated again the board kept faith in him and he got them back up again and they became a very good midtable side that was actually fighting for a europe spot in the league. You see the board gave him some time to fix things and turn things around, just like us as supporters we need to give our manager time and support for him to change his philosophy and transfers around. Why can't we give Kenny Dalglish, the one who gave all to this club another chance? What if in the summer he buys the right players and gets the team playing some great football again would you change your mind? All we are asking is another chance and a bit of patience, you never know what will happen next season, 1 season is NOT ENOUGH to judge, judge in 3 or 4 seasons. You said before that there is no ''right platform to build on'', yes there is and you know that winning a trophy shows our ambition to win some more in the future, and we are still in the hunt for the FA cup and if we win that then we are going into the right direction. More trophies, more top players would be interested in our project.

[metalhead]

eds, if in case Kenny doesn't improve us in the next season, then fine I think all of us would agree and hold our hands up that Kenny isn't the right person for the job and we should get a new start under a new coach.

But it is still early days and I'm going to be patient and give him a chance to rectify his mistakes and do well