Liverpool FC Forum

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:42 am wrote:

leeroy74 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:36 am wrote:interesting that this is all happening so quickly and without selling Sterling.

We are splashing the cash because we know Sterling won't be kicking a ball for us again, the moment the club pulled out of those scheduled talks with his agent he was gone.

One has to wonder whether the transfer committee is already scraped. Or they received some bollocking by the owners. There don't seem to be much haggling like before and no missing out on targets because of 2 million or so.
Rodgers will be under pressure to perform though because the owners have shown that they are willing to support him from the looks of it. Fair play to them.

maguskwt » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:50 am wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:42 am wrote:

leeroy74 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:36 am wrote:interesting that this is all happening so quickly and without selling Sterling.

We are splashing the cash because we know Sterling won't be kicking a ball for us again, the moment the club pulled out of those scheduled talks with his agent he was gone.

One has to wonder whether the transfer committee is already scraped. Or they received some bollocking by the owners. There don't seem to be much haggling like before and no missing out on targets because of 2 million or so.
Rodgers will be under pressure to perform though because the owners have shown that they are willing to support him from the looks of it. Fair play to them.

It was never an owner problem ,it was always very poor execution by BR and his supporting team.

Only me: not gonna go into the whole Rodgers or transfer committee gets the call on transfers thing. The way I look at it, it was a collective problem. Rodgers and the rest of the transfer comittee couldn't gel. It was a dysfunctional team. The faster the owners look into it, and do something about it, the better.

woof woof ! » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:46 am wrote:

damjan193 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:53 pm wrote:We could still play 4-3-3.

As things stand:

                                     Mignolet

                    Clyne    Skrtel    Sakho    Moreno

                                      Lucas
                              Milner      Hendo

                     Frimino                  Coutinho
                                   
                                  Sturridge


Obviously I'd prefer Can over Milner but Milner will probably be a regular for us. Maybe a bit lack of creativity in that midfield but I could think of much worse.

Think 4-3-3 will be a real option.

Still some questions about Moreno, the lads still learning, Sturridge will maybe play half a season so need quality cover/competition for him and of course Clyne isn't actually signed yet but I'd be happy with .

.                                        Mignolet
.   Clyne ?            Skrtel                         Sakho            Moreno ?

.                                          Can                                               
.                      Henderson               Milner                             

.              Firmino                                     Coutinho
.                                    Sturridge ?

A few issues I have with this. 

In midfield, a trio of Can, Henderson & Milner is as bad a 3 man midfield as you'd find imo. Between them/combined, they lack creativity, passing, flair, and the ability to dictate the tempo of a game. I cant see any of the 3 demanding the ball and controlling things if we are leading and need to maintain the score or behind and need to instill a bit of urgency. Gerrard for all the criticism he got in 2013/2014 did that brilliantly for us and he knew exactly when to look for the long pass behind the defenders, or down the channels, or to the feet of the attacking players. He also knew when to sit back/push forward/ask the defenders to push up, etc. and I dont think Can has that in him yet (or ever will). He doesnt strike me as the controlled type (much like Henderson & Milner) and the energy the 3 provide wont compensate for all that they lack. We'll need to figure out a way around this imo if we dont add to our midfield options because -Playing a Coutinho or Lallana in a deeper position aside- we will find it very difficult to change the course of a game with what we currently have.

Further up, I wouldnt play Firmino & Coutinho out wide. Especially not Firmino who was brought in for 29 mill (I think we paid about 15mill more than we should have) in the hope of him replicating what he has been doing at club level recently. Again, back in 2013/2014 when we had Sterling, Coutinho, Suarez and Sturridge, we opted for a diamond formation that worked really well. If we bring in Bacca (or any other CF), having all of Bacca, Sturridge, Firmino, Coutinho could mean us having to go back to that setup to accommodate all the attacking talent. I'd actuallu advocate doing it now with what we have; stick Firminho higher up (roaming around his CF partner simialr to what he currently does) until Sturridge is back and have Coutinho playing in behind.

Regardless, we need a CM to get the best out of the attacking talent we have.

I think you're underestimating Can's abilities aCe and Henderson or even Milner aren't exactly slouches at spotting a pass.

Personally I see it a a tough energetic midfield with enough creativity and ability to not only hold their own but also feed the real creators in the side (Firmino and Coutinho) in addition any of the three are more than capable of chipping in with goals of their own.

I'm not sure why you think the suggestion is that Firmino and Countinho play as "wide" players, nailed to playing wide or down channels, maybe the diagram confused you   

With their quality I'd certainly give the pair of them licence to roam and mix it up.

In that 4-3-3 system though we have lost Ibe, what I like about playing 3 at the back is that it allows us to get more of our attacking players into the starting XI.
Hopefully the arrival of Clyne won't mean a return to a back 4, hopefully something like this happens -

                               Mingolet

                    Can       Ilorri       Sakho

Clyne             Hendo.        Milner.             Ibe

                    Firmino.       Coutinho

                             Sturridge

Jeezuz Yakka, despite his many FK Ups on the right side of our defence you're still going with Can in that position !!!!

Give it up mate. His ability is wasted there !

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:31 pm wrote:In that 4-3-3 system though we have lost Ibe, what I like about playing 3 at the back is that it allows us to get more of our attacking players into the starting XI.
Hopefully the arrival of Clyne won't mean a return to a back 4, hopefully something like this happens -

                               Mingolet

                    Can       Ilorri       Sakho

Clyne             Hendo.        Milner.             Ibe

                    Firmino.       Coutinho

                             Sturridge

Strange one Yakka...You would keep Can outside his natural position and put in an untested young CB in in the middle? Not that i'm against the 3 CB formation but lets have the right tools in place and not improvise our way to a leaky defense.

woof woof ! » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:42 pm wrote:Jeezuz Yakka, despite his many FK Ups on the right side of our defence you're still going with Can in that position !!!!

Give it up mate. His ability is wasted there !

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this mate but it was only when we went to a back 3 that our defence improved!
In fact Can, Skrtel and Sakho equalled a 40 year old defensive record originally set when we had the likes of Ron Yeats and Gerry Byrne in our side.
It was only when Sakho got injured against United that we started to fall apart again.
We were pi$$ing goals before we moved to a back 3 as we were the season before when we conceded 50 (with a back 4).
Re -Can yes he looked awful against Stoke but that was when he was playing as a RB, when he was playing as one of 3 CB's he was getting rave reviews.

The 3-4-3 system improved us for a little bit but by the end of the season we had zero creativity and lost control in the middle of the park

We need to go back to a 4 at the back but need to protect the back for better and that will be either Henderson or Milners job

Then add in either Can or a new signing or Lucas and you get a solid midfield with the creativity coming from a new signing or Coutinho or Lallana as a high CM behind a striker

That then gives us three slots forward where Ibe could fulfil one of the wide slots

But Can isn't a CB and we shouldn't adjust our formation just to fit Ibe in

We could use a diamond but whatever is down on the paper won't be set in stone - it will be fluid and we can't have three cb's - you sacrifice one going forward and people nullified it

The crucial player and one I still believe we should stop is the Gk - he needs to be confident and good enough to be the sweeper behind two CB's - Mignolet isn't that GK at the moment and not sure if he ever will be.

Buck Rodgers » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:10 pm wrote:The 3-4-3 system improved us for a little bit but by the end of the season we had zero creativity and lost control in the middle of the park

We need to go back to a 4 at the back but need to protect the back for better and that will be either Henderson or Milners job

Then add in either Can or a new signing or Lucas and you get a solid midfield with the creativity coming from a new signing or Coutinho or Lallana as a high CM behind a striker

That then gives us three slots forward where Ibe could fulfil one of the wide slots

But Can isn't a CB and we shouldn't adjust our formation just to fit Ibe in

We could use a diamond but whatever is down on the paper won't be set in stone - it will be fluid and we can't have three cb's - you sacrifice one going forward and people nullified it

The crucial player and one I still believe we should stop is the Gk - he needs to be confident and good enough to be the sweeper behind two CB's - Mignolet isn't that GK at the moment and not sure if he ever will be.

So we are going to have more control of the midfield by moving one of our midfielders into the back 4? Not sure how that works.

im not sure how that works also hence why I didn't suggest it ?!

woof woof ! » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:13 pm wrote:I think you're underestimating Can's abilities aCe and Henderson or even Milner aren't exactly slouches at spotting a pass.

Personally I see it a a tough energetic midfield with enough creativity and ability to not only hold their own but also feed the real creators in the side (Firmino and Coutinho) in addition any of the three are more than capable of chipping in with goals of their own.

I'm not sure why you think the suggestion is that Firmino and Countinho play as "wide" players, nailed to playing wide or down channels, maybe the diagram confused you   :D

With their quality I'd certainly give the pair of them licence to roam and mix it up.

I see where you're coming from Woof but I disagree.

On Can, I think he is a decent player who is very similar to Henderson in many aspects. Better defensively, more drive, less composure, and I'm not sure we want to see the ball at his feet that often if we're not on the counter.

Milner is a decent player when he operates down the flank. I'm almost sure he'll start down the right with Coutinho the most likely to start down the left. Leaves us with Henderson and Can holding and that for me spells trouble.

As you said, Coutinho and Firminho are the creators in the side. But theres a big difference between creating and controlling. Not many will claim that Carrick for example is a creator, he controls things and Utd struggle no end when he's not on the pitch.

And as for the idea of having Milner, Can, Henderson operate a bit more centrally, I think they're more likely to win an olympic medal than a premier league one to be honest.

Buck Rodgers » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:22 pm wrote:im not sure how that works also hence why I didn't suggest it ?!

Well when you move from a back 3 to a back 4 one of the players who are playing further up the pitch have to drop out the team to accommodate the RB.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:29 pm wrote:

Buck Rodgers » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:22 pm wrote:im not sure how that works also hence why I didn't suggest it ?!

Well when you move from a back 3 to a back 4 one of the players who are playing further up the pitch have to drop out the team to accommodate the RB.

The two wingbacks become left and right back and one CB drops outs to bring in a extra midfielder.