Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC1990]

Real bought illaramendi from Sociedad for around 30 million but have hardly given him a chance

[aCe']

Don't know much about illaramendi... I read that he's a defensive midfielder? How good a defensive midfielder is he though? Better than lucas? As good as masch or hamann?

I'd like to think that there is a place for Can in there there somewhere. Either as a DM or a box to box midfielder...

Anyway I feel that we are in need of a good striker with Sterling's money than 2 midfielders...

He's more of an Alonso type, plus it doesn't matter how good your strikers are if you haven't got a grip of the game in midfield you'll always be feeding off scraps. I've got very little hope of us buying 2 players like Kovacic and illaremendi anyway, this is LFC we are talking about here, we'd much rather build our team around a pair of average English players like Henderson and Milner who are all huff and puff and no quality.
On the other hand you have a club like Inter who are supposed to be skint and have no european (never mind CL) football to offer who have just put themselves together a CM pairing of Kovacic and Kondogbia.

The lack of creativity in the side (especially midfield) is frightening. Coutinho is the only player we have who I would classify as a creator. All of Allen, Lucas, Milner, Henderson, and even Markovic & Ibe are players who rely more on their physical attributes to contribute rather than their positioning/awareness/passing/flair/creativity, etc. Makes the side very one dimensional especially when you add the fact that we dont have any left footed players in there. Leaves us in a situation where we have to decide between playing our best 4 or 5 (Henderson, Milner, Coutinho, Lallana) or bringing in one of Lucas/Allen to add balance to the side. 

I'm quickly coming around to the idea of having Kovacic in the side playing a bit deeper to control things and the prospect of pairing him with Illaramendi instead of Allen, Lucas or Milner (very unlikely that we'd sign one never mind both) is mouth watering !

On Sterling, I can see him fitting in well in that Man City side. If they manage to get Pogba and Sterling I think they'll have a stronger starting 11 than Chelsea's with Yaya, Silva, Pogba, Sterling all capable of scoring and creating.

Arsenal have a strong starting 11 and squad and adding Cech and another signing will have them up there competing imo. They have Ramsey, Wilshere, Ozil, Sanchez, Cazorla amongst others who are all better than anything we have.

Utd are looking to add schweinsteiger to a midfield that already has Di Maria, Mata, Herrera (one of the most underrated players int he league imo), and Carrick.


And Chelsea have Matic, Fabregas, Oscar, Hazard, Wllian, and Cuadrado.

Compare that to what we have to offer and -as things stand- we're very unlikely to make any sort of serious challenge for the top4. 2 or 3 signings would go a long way and the idea of selling rather than losing Sterling should be more appealing to most if we can pull off the deals as a result.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Real bought illaramendi from Sociedad for around 30 million but have hardly given him a chance

It's absolutely infuriating that 2 quality CM's like Kovacic and illaremendi are available and within our budget (after Sterling goes) but the powers that be within the club have somehow concluded in their infinite wisdom that we'd be better off building our midfield (and hence our team) around 2 average English players.
English players aren't exactly renowned for their technical ability at the best of times but Henderson and Milner aren't even top class English players, we are not talking Gerrard and Scholes here in fact we aren't even talking Ross Barkley and Jack Wilshere.
Some of our fans are obsessed with getting a striker in but in the final months of the season we were getting played off the park by everyone, if you don't have control of the game in midfield your front men will always be feeding off scraps.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Good post Ace and I agree with you.
United looked vulnerable at the back last season so what are they doing? They are going all out for Sergio Ramos.
We looked awful in midfield so what do we do? Give Hendo a bumper contract and bring in James Milner.
That sums it up for me.

[Buck Rodgers]

Inter aren't selling Kovacic - we are still interested but we can't buy the player of the club doesn't want to sell

As for Ilaremendi - the guy was bought for a big fee but has sat on the bench for 3 plus years now - he is a decent player but he isn't a centre mid world beater.

Henderson in the middle with Can supported by Milner with creativity coming from Coutinho and hopefully Firmino isn't as horrific as you are making our. Henderson has had two very good seasons in the middle of the park - needs a strong DM next to him -Can

Both Kovacic and Illar could just as likely flop as any signing from abroad that we have seen over the years. They aren't a guarantee success

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Inter aren't selling Kovacic - we are still interested but we can't buy the player of the club doesn't want to sell

As for Ilaremendi - the guy was bought for a big fee but has sat on the bench for 3 plus years now - he is a decent player but he isn't a centre mid world beater.

Henderson in the middle with Can supported by Milner with creativity coming from Coutinho and hopefully Firmino isn't as horrific as you are making our. Henderson has had two very good seasons in the middle of the park - needs a strong DM next to him -Can

Both Kovacic and Illar could just as likely flop as any signing from abroad that we have seen over the years. They aren't a guarantee success

No signing is guaranteed to be a success but if they are good players the odds of them succeeding is higher.
Henderson's importance to the side was overstated mainly because Gerrard couldn't run so his extra industry came in handy but since he's had to stand on his own two feet his lack of technical ability is glaringly obvious, if he's not passing sideways and backwards he's over hitting through balls.
I like Can but I think he's a better CB than CM, whenever we've played him at DM we haven't just been poor we've been over run.
Imo centre mid is the most crucial area of the pitch and ours is very, very average.

PS - a Coutinho and Firmino partnership is an exciting prospect I give you that.

[Buck Rodgers]

Can is a CM - simple as that , only have to look at his performances for Germany U21 and Bayer - he was a make shift CB - he should and hopefully will be in the middle of the park alongside Henderson would be a dynamic and energetic partnership that would offer more protection to the back four which we needed last season.

They wouldn't be glamorous or offer the creativity bar the box to box runs - the creativity will come from players like Coutinho and hopefully Firmino with width from Ibe or even Milner with goals from Bacca hopefully and Sturridge with three young forwards waiting in the wings

It wouldn't be a squad to rival City or Chelsea but would be a big step forward from last season and could would challenge for top 4

[aCe']

Can is a CM - simple as that , only have to look at his performances for Germany U21 and Bayer - he was a make shift CB - he should and hopefully will be in the middle of the park alongside Henderson would be a dynamic and energetic partnership that would offer more protection to the back four which we needed last season.

They wouldn't be glamorous or offer the creativity bar the box to box runs - the creativity will come from players like Coutinho and hopefully Firmino with width from Ibe or even Milner with goals from Bacca hopefully and Sturridge with three young forwards waiting in the wings

It wouldn't be a squad to rival City or Chelsea but would be a big step forward from last season and could would challenge for top 4

Lets put it this way, if we go out and sign Illaramendi and Kovacic, we'd be signing the best and second best midfielders at the club, at least on paper. They both offer things that the likes of Lucas, Allen, Can, Henderson and Milner dont. For all the industry you talk about that Can and Henderson/Milner would provide, that alone is almost never enough to create a balanced midfield over the course of a season.

Buying a good centre forward or a decent attacking midfielder is A LOT easier than bringing in the Illaramendi and Kovacic type of players. They are a rare commodity in the game and the better ones usually end up at the top clubs (see Alonso, Pirlo, Busquets, etc for Illara and Modric, Kroos, Thiago, Yaya, etc. for Kovacic. Both have been played (and been linked recently) to the top clubs in the continent and that makes a move for them less risky than signing the likes of Markovic, Ings, etc.

Coutinho for all his good qualities is largely inconsistent. We cant rely solely on him providing the creativity and control in midfield and while Lallana could step in and have a big season, that still doesnt negate the need to improve in the depper positions to make us a more competitive side going forward.

It's amazing what signing the right players could do for a side. In the past few years, we havent done that and we've suffered as a result. We've signed way too many players from mid table sides, way too many players who are not proven, and way too many players who didnt command a starting spot based on their abilities before a ball is kicked. The 3 best players we have in the side today imo are Sturridge, Coutinho & Sakho. Signed from Chelsea, Inter, and PSG. They knew what it was like playing for a big club in the big games and that allowed them to make a big impact on arrival rather than us having to wait/struggle 3 or 4 seasons for them to start producing at an adequate level (Henderson?). 

On Firmino, he's a fantastic talent and I'd definitely have him in the side but we already have Coutinho who plays behind the forwards and does so well. I'd push him further up and have him partner Sturridge and still want to bring in the CMs to improve the side.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

I think everyone accepts that we can't compete with the likes of United, Chelsea, City and the other wealthy clubs around the world for the really big names in the game but there is no reason that a club of our stature shouldn't be going for the likes of Kovacic and illaremendi.
Although Forbes lists us as the 8th wealthiest club in the world, in terms of size, history, fanbase and the amount of column inches we command they have us down as 1 of the 'big 6' truly global mega clubs.
It's about time we started acting like one.

[LFC1990]

Good post Yakka and i havent said that to you in a while 

I think the club rushed into get Milner because there was interest elsewhere.

Personally he wouldnt get into our side infront of Can or Henderson.

After the Firmino signing I think we will start needing to sell players wtih Sterling heading that list hopefully followed by Borini and Lambert

Also I cant see us signing another CM without losing Allen or Lucas.

Midfield options of Henderson, Milner, Kovacic, illaramendi and Can looks good on paper but are all strangers to eachother

[number 8 ynwa]

[quote="ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:19 pm"]I think everyone accepts that we can't compete with the likes of United, Chelsea, City and the other wealthy clubs around the world for the really big names in the game but there is no reason that a club of our stature shouldn't be going for the likes of Kovacic and illaremendi.


Good realistic post - but one question...

Who says we are not  going after Kovacic and Illaremendi?

It's still 6 days before the window opens, maybe we are speaking to them quietly like we did with Firmino..?

[red till i die!!]

How much have we spent so far ? Firmino, Clyne, Gomez, is probably close to 50 mil and I seriously doubt we are going to spend another 50 if thats what we get for sterling.

No one else is interested in him so they would want to hope city doesn't call their bluff 

[johnbarnes]

Good post Ace and I agree with you.
United looked vulnerable at the back last season so what are they doing? They are going all out for Sergio Ramos.
We looked awful in midfield so what do we do? Give Hendo a bumper contract and bring in James Milner.
That sums it up for me.

It's a fair point. However United are addressing their on field situation with big name purchases on big wages.
It's a quick fix by a manager who probably won't stay their too long which could hurt them in the long-term.

LFC are addressing its on field situation with a long-term fix. For the most part we got this wrong in last summers transfers. But given time, are the signings we've made really that bad?
LFC plan can only really be judged once a full generation of football has been played i.e. 10 years.
A decade seems a long time, especially to a fanbase that wants it all now. But FSG don't view it that way.
They own a franchise that went nearly a century without major success, so to them what's 25 years?

[aCe']

Good post Ace and I agree with you.
United looked vulnerable at the back last season so what are they doing? They are going all out for Sergio Ramos.
We looked awful in midfield so what do we do? Give Hendo a bumper contract and bring in James Milner.
That sums it up for me.

It's a fair point. However United are addressing their on field situation with big name purchases on big wages.
It's a quick fix by a manager who probably won't stay their too long which could hurt them in the long-term.

LFC are addressing its on field situation with a long-term fix. For the most part we got this wrong in last summers transfers. But given time, are the signings we've made really that bad?
LFC plan can only really be judged once a full generation of football has been played i.e. 10 years.
A decade seems a long time, especially to a fanbase that wants it all now. But FSG don't view it that way.
They own a franchise that went nearly a century without major success, so to them what's 25 years?

You realize you're posting this on the Raheem Sterling thread don't you. The best young talent at the club wants to leave (and is on his way out) because the side is not competitive enough. The best players we've had the past 5 seasons or so have all left the club (mainly because we aren't competitive) and you're seriously trying to convince people that going the Southampton route and sacrificing results and success for youth development is the way forward ?

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Good post Yakka and i havent said that to you in a while 

I think the club rushed into get Milner because there was interest elsewhere.

Personally he wouldnt get into our side infront of Can or Henderson.

After the Firmino signing I think we will start needing to sell players wtih Sterling heading that list hopefully followed by Borini and Lambert

Also I cant see us signing another CM without losing Allen or Lucas.

Midfield options of Henderson, Milner, Kovacic, illaramendi and Can looks good on paper but are all strangers to eachother

Yeah mate the Milner deal did seem to have more than a hint of panic about it, what's worse the Echo said that before he put pen to paper he sought 'guarantee's' from the club heirachy about Brendan's position and you can bet your bottom dollar that his role within the team and playing time got mentioned too.
Don't get me wrong I don't think any player expects to be picked week in week out if he's stinking the place out but on the other hand if he's doing okay I don't think Milner expects to see his situation at City replicated here at Anfield either.
In fact I'll be astonished if he doesn't start the majority of our league games.
Re Joe Allen the word is that he is about to be offered a new contract so I can't see him going, if any of our CM's do go I reckon it will be Lucas, at his age he won't want to spend any more time on the bench and I think Rodgers see's Henderson, Milner, Allen and Can as his main central midfield options.
I like Can and I think he's got a big future but I think those 4 may constitute our worst CM unit since our second division days, even when Souness was here we had the likes of Molby, Houghton and a young Jamie Redknapp.