Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bermenstein** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:14 am

Bad Bob wrote:They're both gone, folks. Let it go.

Yeah let it go.
I only bumped the thread because of his link to Villa

by **Big Niall** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:29 am

Villa would be mad to have Houllier. I hope he goes there though as maybe he will buy some of the numerous donkeys we have at the club.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:48 pm

bigmick wrote:Rafa and Roy are operating under different circumstances though surely? I'm not making excuses in advance here, because I'm extremely confident our new manager will improve upon the 7th place team he has inherited, but it is a fact nontheless.

Lets look at it:

Rafa had a team full of players which after six seasons you could could hope were both his players, and knew exactly what was required of them. Not only that, but he would have been familiar with every professional at the club, had a chance to establish a rapport with them and know what made them tick. He will have been privvie to all the reports off the various coaching staff members. Roy is having to deal with a bunch of players who weren't his first choices. Those players in most cases have never met Roy before, and have no idea of his philosophy and character.

Rafa was able to tempt players with the lure of Champions League football. This applies to both players we already have, and players we are looking to sign. Roy is only able to tempt players with Europa League Cup football. Even this is only because Portsmouth had about five dodgy owners last season. We didn't actually qualify for any competition in Europe, as we finished 7th in the league and bombed out of all the cups.

Rafa over his tenure had much more money to spend than Roy has as of now. I'm not going to get into explaining it, some numpty will dispute the numbers anyway if you bother putting them up, but it's a fact and we all know it.

Rafa had Steven Gerrard at his absolute lung busting peak, Jamie Carragher too. Both players would probably admit themselves that these days they aren,t quite up to that level.

Rafa didn't have to compete with moneybags Man City and a decent manager. Nor did he have to compete for long with Spurs and a decent manager. Come to that, the Man Utd team this season is better than the one last season too IMHO.

Roy has lost Masherano through no fault of his own, the player already wanted away. This has meant he has made a profit in transfers. When you add in the fact that he has also seen another 20 million pound midfielder (not my valuation obviously) disappear without any money coming in, then you realise what he is up against.

Roy has a harder job than Rafa ever had. He inherited a dispirited squad, many of whom wanted away. He inherited a club with no money. Fortunately for us, he has handled himself brilliantly and fought fires left right and centre. The very people who slagged him off before he came can't or won't see it yet, but he has done a fantastic job so far .

Mick you were only telling us (quite recently in fact )how players and for that matter managers of a high calibre will opt to join Liverpool simply because of how big a club we were and our unequalled Lineage .... and now you openly tell us Roy struggled to entice players to the club because he didn't have the appropriate carrot to dangle ie the Champions League
Which is it mate

(and remember you can only choose one ) it makes it so much easier to keep track you see fella... if you stand behind earlier statements

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:50 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:I'm guessing this thread is no longer about Houllier then . As for current manager - he has a long way to go yet and he will be judged on performances on the pitch mainly in the prem and at the moment it's not good enough but hopefully it will change .

Once he gets the players out of Rafa mode things will change

by **maguskwt** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:40 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:I'm guessing this thread is no longer about Houllier then . As for current manager - he has a long way to go yet and he will be judged on performances on the pitch mainly in the prem and at the moment it's not good enough but hopefully it will change .

Once he gets the players out of Rafa mode things will change

well yeah into traditional boring 4-4-2 english manager mode...

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:09 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:I'm guessing this thread is no longer about Houllier then . As for current manager - he has a long way to go yet and he will be judged on performances on the pitch mainly in the prem and at the moment it's not good enough but hopefully it will change .

Once he gets the players out of Rafa mode things will change

well yeah into traditional boring 4-4-2 english manager mode...

As long as the players try their best and play creative attacking football I dont give two sh'its what the formation is

by **In and Out** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:21 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
bigmick wrote:Rafa and Roy are operating under different circumstances though surely? I'm not making excuses in advance here, because I'm extremely confident our new manager will improve upon the 7th place team he has inherited, but it is a fact nontheless.

Lets look at it:

Rafa had a team full of players which after six seasons you could could hope were both his players, and knew exactly what was required of them. Not only that, but he would have been familiar with every professional at the club, had a chance to establish a rapport with them and know what made them tick. He will have been privvie to all the reports off the various coaching staff members. Roy is having to deal with a bunch of players who weren't his first choices. Those players in most cases have never met Roy before, and have no idea of his philosophy and character.

Rafa was able to tempt players with the lure of Champions League football. This applies to both players we already have, and players we are looking to sign. Roy is only able to tempt players with Europa League Cup football. Even this is only because Portsmouth had about five dodgy owners last season. We didn't actually qualify for any competition in Europe, as we finished 7th in the league and bombed out of all the cups.

Rafa over his tenure had much more money to spend than Roy has as of now. I'm not going to get into explaining it, some numpty will dispute the numbers anyway if you bother putting them up, but it's a fact and we all know it.

Rafa had Steven Gerrard at his absolute lung busting peak, Jamie Carragher too. Both players would probably admit themselves that these days they aren,t quite up to that level.

Rafa didn't have to compete with moneybags Man City and a decent manager. Nor did he have to compete for long with Spurs and a decent manager. Come to that, the Man Utd team this season is better than the one last season too IMHO.

Roy has lost Masherano through no fault of his own, the player already wanted away. This has meant he has made a profit in transfers. When you add in the fact that he has also seen another 20 million pound midfielder (not my valuation obviously) disappear without any money coming in, then you realise what he is up against.

Roy has a harder job than Rafa ever had. He inherited a dispirited squad, many of whom wanted away. He inherited a club with no money. Fortunately for us, he has handled himself brilliantly and fought fires left right and centre. The very people who slagged him off before he came can't or won't see it yet, but he has done a fantastic job so far .

Mick you were only telling us (quite recently in fact )how players and for that matter managers of a high calibre will opt to join Liverpool simply because of how big a club we were and our unequalled Lineage .... and now you openly tell us Roy struggled to entice players to the club because he didn't have the appropriate carrot to dangle ie the Champions League
Which is it mate (and remember you can only choose one ) it makes it so much easier to keep track you see fella... if you stand behind earlier statements

Yes Mick, don't you know in order to score points round here you must be explicit in what you say. Otherwise you'll have the thought police who literally hang on your every word waiting for glimmer of light to reclaim some face and a point back to make them feel good again.

Just tell em, Roy cannot attract every player, firstly this should be acknowledged by the ankle biter more than most because the club have no money to sign players. Really 'we're not burying our heads in the sand' on the contrary.

As patently factual as this is (Roy having way less money to spend than Rafa) he's looking for deals. One such deal was the signing of J.Cole which some had the old old romantics thinking he signed because of the prestige, tradition and heritage of the club, and others because of the wages.

Whatever the opinion, many players are pulled by the club itself and many are pulled by money.
(I can't give you an exact number as a thorough census hasn't been compiled on the percentages: who come just for the money, or who come because of LFC itself) I'm however positive Our own Mr Cecil will inform us what the KOP thinks after another phantom visit to Anfield, therefore passing this hearsay on as fact to clear the matter up.

But remember Mick, cover ya tracks big fella coz somebodies up ya bum. :;):

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:48 pm

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:34 pm

In answer to Reds question, I was happy to proven correct that we'd be able to attract a manager who is top class when we procured the services of one Royston Hodgson :buttrock

. As I've said many times, I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that he will immediately be an improvement on what he took over from. So in that sense alone if his predessor was anywhere near as good as we were led to believe for many years, Roy must indeed be World Class.

As far as the Champions League question is concerned, I think Red is either getting himself confused or I didn't explain myself very well. For managers, the lack of Champions League football wouldn't necessarily be a barrier to entry. In some cases it may even be a plus as they can spend the next three seasons trying to get us back in, knowing that if they manage it they'll be a bit of a hero. For players (and this is where we've lost each other) the equation is obviously different. Top players with International ambitions want to play in the Champions League. That's where the bigger money and prestige is, and once Roy's predessor had failed to get us anywhere near qualification it was always going to be hard to both recruit and keep players. Of course not only did we not qualify, but we missed it by a mile (finished 7th in fact) so Roy hasn't even got the facility of saying we are just about certainties next season either.

No, Roy has to rely on his man management techniques and powers of persuasion. Fortunately, he appears to have both of those in abundance :buttrock

.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:47 pm

You once called Rafa record and history in management "Ordinary " what word would you use for Hodgsons record and history .

by **Reg** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:53 pm

What va great opportunity to take another pop at Rafa. Even on a Houllier thread.

Why cant we just start a 'I hate Rafa' thread for the loonies so they dont pollute everyother thread?

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:54 pm

I don't think I did call it "ordinary" Benny, but it's certainly not as good as those at the top of the management tree, absolútely nowhere near it infact. Two league titles at Valencia was impressive, although he did take over a team which had reached consecutive Champions League finals, and he was competing against historically weak Madrid and Barca sides. Two trophies in six seasons at Liverpool was probably only as well as Houlier would have done had you given him six more seasons to go at it, while rafa's earlier record is distinctly hit and miss.

Roys record is outstanding, however I do realise that you "don't count" much of his success as you don't rate the league.

I would ask you to remember that rafa has gone however, and to consider supporting our new manager.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:57 pm

You said he had an ordinary record Mick - so you think Hodgsons is outstanding ?! Hodgson has won NO major trophies and i mean major not small leagues in Scandinavia and you say its outstanding and yet Rafa wins 4 major trophies ( despite you trying to down play them ) and you say its ordinary - now that is unreal .

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:04 pm

p.s the historically weak Madrid you mentioned won the CL the same year rafa won the La Liga title first time as well as the league afterwards and then Barcelona won it the year after valencia won it the second time under Rafa - not to mention his Uefa Cup win as well so sorry its 5 major trophies .

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:27 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:p.s the historically weak Madrid you mentioned won the CL the same year rafa won the La Liga title first time as well as the league afterwards and then Barcelona won it the year after valencia won it the second time under Rafa - not to mention his Uefa Cup win as well so sorry its 5 major trophies .

It doesn't matter which way you spin in Ben, his record is nowhere near the top of the tree as far as managers Worldwide go. Top class managers don't go four seasons without a trophy at clubs like Liverpool, nor do they divebomb the team into 7th from 2nd, p!ssing off half the players with it. Roys record is excellent with I think 7 league titles in his domestic career.

I know you enjoy this constant back and forth about Rafa, but I would have to advise you that he has in fact moved on and I suggest so should you and your cohorts.

Move on in the sense that you fully get behind our current manager. Rather than desperately plotting form the sidelines, scouring the internet for the latest set of pointless stats which prove Lucas is the best midfielder in the World and Insua the best left back, properly get in behind our man and recognise that he is doing a fantastic job. Failing that, if your fixation with our previous manager really is too difficult to get over, get yourself a blue and black top and support Inter Milan.

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