Liverpool FC Forum

by **DRARREG8** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:29 pm

Lucas developed alot from the last season ... he used to have a high percentage of loss passes and he used to be impetuous in the games and he isn't anymore ... In spite of all that im my point of view what lucas is performing is all what he actually has from talent so he isn't a productive player like alonso so I don't think he deserve to be on the team at least to play in the start-up squad ... lets hope aqui is although his performance doesnt show that but he needs to get the whole chance before we judge him

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:38 pm

He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:47 pm

bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:59 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

Well the captain certainly isn't immune as people such as yourself regularly criticise him. The main difference though between the captain and Lucas is on the one hand the discussion is about form in the case of Gerrard, and on the other it's about ability in the case of Lucas.

Gerrard is obviously good enough, the debate is over whether or not he is playing near his best. Thanfully while the debate is raging on, despite his injuries Gerrard continues to score important goals. For Lucas it is far from clear whether or not he is good enough (I don't think he is). The manager does though as do you as well which is cool, so he will continue to play. I think the fact he plays every week in central midfield for us is hugely significant in the fact that we aren't very good. He is an average player in an average team in my opinion.

If we got a new manager, he would have a number of priorities. Up towards the top of the list would be improving us defensively from set pieces. Arguably above that would be sorting out our central midfield. Lucas is part of the problem, he certainly isn't part of any solution.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:55 pm

bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

Well the captain certainly isn't immune as people such as yourself regularly criticise him. The main difference though between the captain and Lucas is on the one hand the discussion is about form in the case of Gerrard, and on the other it's about ability in the case of Lucas.

Gerrard is obviously good enough, the debate is over whether or not he is playing near his best. Thanfully while the debate is raging on, despite his injuries Gerrard continues to score important goals. For Lucas it is far from clear whether or not he is good enough (I don't think he is). The manager does though as do you as well which is cool, so he will continue to play. I think the fact he plays every week in central midfield for us is hugely significant in the fact that we aren't very good. He is an average player in an average team in my opinion.

If we got a new manager, he would have a number of priorities. Up towards the top of the list would be improving us defensively from set pieces. Arguably above that would be sorting out our central midfield. Lucas is part of the problem, he certainly isn't part of any solution.

Again, Mick, I have to stop you there as say you're talking rubbish (not generally, Mick, just in defense of the in bold statement there, so don't take it the wrong way). I don't regularly criticise Gerrard, although lately this season, I've been critical of him and it's been well justified. I've just read the match thread, and the one from RAWK, and a good few on there who went to todays game are saying exactly what I've been saying.

I think pinning our creative problems on Lucas is far too harsh. For a start, he's not there to be the play maker. He's there to break their play down, and he does that well enough. He's also the bridge between the center-backs to the wide players, to the middle man (Gerrard) and again he uses his passing here to good effect, keeping us ticking over when in posossion from deep. Our problems seem to be in our wingers (or lack of) and our current main play maker (Gerrard) none of which are up to snuff, and unless these lot pull their head from their holes, we'll struggle all the way through this season, you can be sure of that.

by **Kerry07** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:25 am

Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

Well the captain certainly isn't immune as people such as yourself regularly criticise him. The main difference though between the captain and Lucas is on the one hand the discussion is about form in the case of Gerrard, and on the other it's about ability in the case of Lucas.

Gerrard is obviously good enough, the debate is over whether or not he is playing near his best. Thanfully while the debate is raging on, despite his injuries Gerrard continues to score important goals. For Lucas it is far from clear whether or not he is good enough (I don't think he is). The manager does though as do you as well which is cool, so he will continue to play. I think the fact he plays every week in central midfield for us is hugely significant in the fact that we aren't very good. He is an average player in an average team in my opinion.

If we got a new manager, he would have a number of priorities. Up towards the top of the list would be improving us defensively from set pieces. Arguably above that would be sorting out our central midfield. Lucas is part of the problem, he certainly isn't part of any solution.

Again, Mick, I have to stop you there as say you're talking rubbish (not generally, Mick, just in defense of the in bold statement there, so don't take it the wrong way). I don't regularly criticise Gerrard, although lately this season, I've been critical of him and it's been well justified. I've just read the match thread, and the one from RAWK, and a good few on there who went to todays game are saying exactly what I've been saying.

I think pinning our creative problems on Lucas is far too harsh. For a start, he's not there to be the play maker. He's there to break their play down, and he does that well enough. He's also the bridge between the center-backs to the wide players, to the middle man (Gerrard) and again he uses his passing here to good effect, keeping us ticking over when in posossion from deep. Our problems seem to be in our wingers (or lack of) and our current main play maker (Gerrard) none of which are up to snuff, and unless these lot pull their head from their holes, we'll struggle all the way through this season, you can be sure of that.

lol... this is irony i assume.

He was bought as (quote) "a box to box goalscoring midfielder".. but he failed as aint good enough. Because lucas has no passing range, with his 5 yard sideways "nothingness", this means theres no quality service to the attacking players, hence they have suffered with the loss of Alonso, and being replaced by him. The team has nosedived with this downgrade.

Seen it written...

Alonso was the man who "made the assist for the assist", Lucas "cant pass for sh*t"

...which sums it up.

People who criticise Gerrard and his sudden drop in performance (work it out) are unfortunately not very bright, and have no concept of football. You are only as good as the players around you...if you are surrounded by dross, you cannot excell. Its impossible..especially if the dross is in central midfield. Last season (and the 4 before that) Gerrard had a passmaster behind him in the shape of Alonso, who TOOK (demanded) the ball of the back 4 (so no HOOFBALL like we're seeing now from Carra and co, which gives it straight back to the opposition, hence they get more of the ball, more chances, we're under greater pressure than never before) and then pinged it 30-40 yards to a wide man or Gerrard. This constant supply from deep was huge...the link in midfield...connecting defense and attack. Look at Gerrards goal stats from the moment Alonso arrived... skyrocketed, because he was now able to play much further advanced upfield, due to having a passmaster back in deep midfield who would find him.

Thats all gone.

Hes now isolated. The Bolton game was a MAJOR example of it... we were losing 2-1 with 25 to go, and Gerrard was starved of any service, there was nothing creative from central midfield, so he came back deep to get the ball himself (something he never had to do with Alonso on the field).. and he passed 30 yards foward to Kuyt, who then flicked on to Torres who equalised. Boton going down to 10 meant we could go on and win it.

Gerrard is suffering by the mammoth drop in quality in central midfield, as are other players. Watching the Villa game the other day, and some imbeciles stated Torres was playing badly... Errr, he was so starved of any decent service he was hungrier than an Ethiopian. The thought of him in a Barca shirt.. with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi threading through balls to him... the mind boggles at how many goals he would get with such endless supply, rather than a deflected scrap that he recieved at Villa Park in the 93rd minute and then hammered home.

Again... you are only as good as the players around you. George Best was a genius for ManUnited, for N-Ireland he suffered bigtime in being surrounded by bogstandard tripe. Weak players in lucas drag you down, they dont give you the service you previously had, they dont take the ball off the defence and thus avoid hoofball, they dont give any control to midfield. Thats now our reality.

I have immense sympathy with Gerrard, Torres...starved of service, and also Mascherano who has suffered by not having a quality creative partner to compliment his destroying ability, and Carra who for the first time since pre Alonso is having to hoof the ball upfield (remember the old criticisms of him??) as he now has no one to come deep and take it off him, also Reina who has NEVER been busier in his 4 years because we no longer control midfield, the opposition get more ball, so more attacks, more chances. Again, Lyon had 17 shots at Anfield. We have been dominated more times this season than the last 20... Fiorentina, Sunderland, Fulham, Portsmouth... such heavyweights.

The vast number of players (key players) who have suffered due to the single change from last season, in the key central area of the field.. the midfield pivot, the link position, slap bang in the center... its been devastating.

by **Owzat** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:52 am

redbeergoggles wrote:Michael you say yourself that Lucas doesnt have the ability to turn a game on its head and is limited I agree ,but others clearly do and for reasons best known to themselves have failed to tap into their reserves and raise their game ,yet these players regularly escape criticism with alarming ease .

Point I was making in the Kuyt thread, too many have the attitude of kerry-come-lately that any bad performance is the fault of others. Sure it is if Gerrard passes to someone who wastes possession, but when Gerrard is giving away possession and doing FA then people seem to blame Lucas or Kuyt.

Sure Lucas is no world beater, but he is a tidy enough player and sadly one of our better players last night. If Gerrard and Torres had done more then the first half revival might have continued, but our midfield was non-existent in the second half because Lucas was too deep, Kuyt and Gerrard too advanced and fecknose where Aurelio wandered off too. We were as poorly organised as Reading's defence when we had a purple patch in the first half. Too many players wanted too much time on the ball, made silly mistakes and yet Kuyt for one poor moment of control and Lucas for no reason other than people want rid, get highlighted - again.

So if Lucas is so limited, Kuyt too, how come the superstars don't get criticised? Because kerry-come-lately types reckon they are being dragged down?!? Don't make me laugh. They are either hiding or have given up, they know others will get blamed first/instead and can live off reputation. The saddest image of 2009 has to be Gerrard standing over a TV monitor hoping that Lyon equalised against Fiorentina. Us not scoring more than one goal in any cup competition game this season is down to the superstars not turning in performances as it is "dross" like Lucas and Kuyt. FFS even Insua and Aurelio had poor games and aren't getting the same flak the usual scapegoats are getting

by **banana** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:05 am

Kerry07 wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

Well the captain certainly isn't immune as people such as yourself regularly criticise him. The main difference though between the captain and Lucas is on the one hand the discussion is about form in the case of Gerrard, and on the other it's about ability in the case of Lucas.

Gerrard is obviously good enough, the debate is over whether or not he is playing near his best. Thanfully while the debate is raging on, despite his injuries Gerrard continues to score important goals. For Lucas it is far from clear whether or not he is good enough (I don't think he is). The manager does though as do you as well which is cool, so he will continue to play. I think the fact he plays every week in central midfield for us is hugely significant in the fact that we aren't very good. He is an average player in an average team in my opinion.

If we got a new manager, he would have a number of priorities. Up towards the top of the list would be improving us defensively from set pieces. Arguably above that would be sorting out our central midfield. Lucas is part of the problem, he certainly isn't part of any solution.

Again, Mick, I have to stop you there as say you're talking rubbish (not generally, Mick, just in defense of the in bold statement there, so don't take it the wrong way). I don't regularly criticise Gerrard, although lately this season, I've been critical of him and it's been well justified. I've just read the match thread, and the one from RAWK, and a good few on there who went to todays game are saying exactly what I've been saying.

I think pinning our creative problems on Lucas is far too harsh. For a start, he's not there to be the play maker. He's there to break their play down, and he does that well enough. He's also the bridge between the center-backs to the wide players, to the middle man (Gerrard) and again he uses his passing here to good effect, keeping us ticking over when in posossion from deep. Our problems seem to be in our wingers (or lack of) and our current main play maker (Gerrard) none of which are up to snuff, and unless these lot pull their head from their holes, we'll struggle all the way through this season, you can be sure of that.

lol... this is irony i assume.

He was bought as (quote) "a box to box goalscoring midfielder".. but he failed as aint good enough. Because lucas has no passing range, with his 5 yard sideways "nothingness", this means theres no quality service to the attacking players, hence they have suffered with the loss of Alonso, and being replaced by him. The team has nosedived with this downgrade.

Seen it written...

Alonso was the man who "made the assist for the assist", Lucas "cant pass for sh*t"

...which sums it up.

People who criticise Gerrard and his sudden drop in performance (work it out) are unfortunately not very bright, and have no concept of football. You are only as good as the players around you...if you are surrounded by dross, you cannot excell. Its impossible..especially if the dross is in central midfield. Last season (and the 4 before that) Gerrard had a passmaster behind him in the shape of Alonso, who TOOK (demanded) the ball of the back 4 (so no HOOFBALL like we're seeing now from Carra and co, which gives it straight back to the opposition, hence they get more of the ball, more chances, we're under greater pressure than never before) and then pinged it 30-40 yards to a wide man or Gerrard. This constant supply from deep was huge...the link in midfield...connecting defense and attack. Look at Gerrards goal stats from the moment Alonso arrived... skyrocketed, because he was now able to play much further advanced upfield, due to having a passmaster back in deep midfield who would find him.

Thats all gone.

Hes now isolated. The Bolton game was a MAJOR example of it... we were losing 2-1 with 25 to go, and Gerrard was starved of any service, there was nothing creative from central midfield, so he came back deep to get the ball himself (something he never had to do with Alonso on the field).. and he passed 30 yards foward to Kuyt, who then flicked on to Torres who equalised. Boton going down to 10 meant we could go on and win it.

Gerrard is suffering by the mammoth drop in quality in central midfield, as are other players. Watching the Villa game the other day, and some imbeciles stated Torres was playing badly... Errr, he was so starved of any decent service he was hungrier than an Ethiopian. The thought of him in a Barca shirt.. with Xavi, Iniesta, Messi threading through balls to him... the mind boggles at how many goals he would get with such endless supply, rather than a deflected scrap that he recieved at Villa Park in the 93rd minute and then hammered home.

Again... you are only as good as the players around you. George Best was a genius for ManUnited, for N-Ireland he suffered bigtime in being surrounded by bogstandard tripe. Weak players in lucas drag you down, they dont give you the service you previously had, they dont take the ball off the defence and thus avoid hoofball, they dont give any control to midfield. Thats now our reality.

I have immense sympathy with Gerrard, Torres...starved of service, and also Mascherano who has suffered by not having a quality creative partner to compliment his destroying ability, and Carra who for the first time since pre Alonso is having to hoof the ball upfield (remember the old criticisms of him??) as he now has no one to come deep and take it off him, also Reina who has NEVER been busier in his 4 years because we no longer control midfield, the opposition get more ball, so more attacks, more chances. Again, Lyon had 17 shots at Anfield. We have been dominated more times this season than the last 20... Fiorentina, Sunderland, Fulham, Portsmouth... such heavyweights.

The vast number of players (key players) who have suffered due to the single change from last season, in the key central area of the field.. the midfield pivot, the link position, slap bang in the center... its been devastating.

That's a pretty decent summary of the situation.

by **akumaface** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:28 pm

Kerry07, I totally agree with you. For those who still insist Lucas pairing with either with Mascher or Aquilani will do the job, open your eyes. Lucas tried hard but he just isn't good enough for us. For Rafa to continue to play him is a big mistake. I was supporting Rafa fully but his stubborness has now reached its boiling point. If Lucas is to play his current role, we will not make top 4. Lucas had played and started alot this season but i never see him take charge and done something with the ball. Passing sideway and backward doesn't help us in any way offensively. With Lucas and Aquilani so far back looking to get rid of the ball eagerly, there were no one to support Gerrard and Torres when attacking. Anyway, I had said before the season started that will anyone let this season slide to proof the point that Lucas is Shlt. I rest my case.

by **teamleader1** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:17 pm

akumaface wrote:Kerry07, I totally agree with you. For those who still insist Lucas pairing with either with Mascher or Aquilani will do the job, open your eyes. Lucas tried hard but he just isn't good enough for us. For Rafa to continue to play him is a big mistake. I was supporting Rafa fully but his stubborness has now reached its boiling point. If Lucas is to play his current role, we will not make top 4. Lucas had played and started alot this season but i never see him take charge and done something with the ball. Passing sideway and backward doesn't help us in any way offensively. With Lucas and Aquilani so far back looking to get rid of the ball eagerly, there were no one to support Gerrard and Torres when attacking. Anyway, I had said before the season started that will anyone let this season slide to proof the point that Lucas is Shlt. I rest my case.

The fact that hes looking a bit better this season only shows to me how much we are underperforming.

To be honest if he came to Anfield with say Bolton he would be anonymous
hes an average player, whos lucky hes playing for a manager who hasnte got a fk clue.

by **Avi Cohen** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:47 pm

I remember when Lucas first came here (was the 2-2 with Everton his first game? When he came on as a sub and was spraying the ball around? I might be wrong). Anyway, he looked like a prospect. He looked like he could put his foot on the ball and pass it about. That has since been snuffed out of his game and I think the manager has something to do with it.

My theory is that he can... but he's been told not to. Maybe Rafa felt he wasn't the man to do it, that he wasn't good enough. So, without telling Lucas straight out, he probably told him that he's best suited to solely breaking up the play. This has to damage the lad's confidence. He's from Brazil for chrissake - they're brought up to be skillful on the ball. That's all they know. Why do we have a Brazilian that can't do that? And in centre midfield?

I write for various publications and if my editors told me that they wanted me to write mickey mouse articles instead of the 'bigger' articles, I'd feel that they didn't think I was good enough and my confidence would suffer. I reckon the same has happened to Lucas. What if all you wanted to do is A, that you felt that that's what you're good at, and the boss is telling you to do B?

I'm not a fan of Lucas but my heart goes out to the guy. Imagine being booed by your own supporters? That is alien at Anfield but it's happened to him. Yet, he's out there every week doing a job that he knows doesn't utilise the best aspects of his talent.

by **Waldo** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:12 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough. If you fill your team with average players, you will get average results.

He's done a decent job for us so far this season. If he's a holding player that's in there to break up passages of play, and he's done an admirable job of it, then what more can be asked of him? The debate here isn't whether or not he is good enough for LFC, he may or may not be, that's a matter of opinion, but currently he's showing more desire than a lot of our so called better players. That isn't even a debate. I think that's a fact. So why is it that this fella constantly gets the boot laid into him, when our captain is immune? Explain that to me, Mick.

Spot on!

The guy gives 100% everytime he plays and has done a decent job this season to date. He is being asked to change his playing style by Rafa as he came to LFC as an attacking midfielder. He cannot be held responsible for our p*ss poor season to date. He is one that, IMO, gets pass marks.

by **aCe'** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:23 pm

Hes a sht player and thats that...

Fact that many here seem to think that he hasnt been that bad this season just goes on to show how terrible we'v been so far...

Get rid of him, Skrtel, Kuyt, Dossena, Babel, Voronin, and some of the other craap and bring in some players with flair and pace ...

by **Fauxy** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:35 pm

He is good at breaking up play.

Other than that he has no attribute that sticks out.

by **aCe'** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:44 pm

Fauxy wrote:He is good at breaking up play.

Other than that he has no attribute that sticks out.

our play or the opposition play ?

:wwww

His positioning is absolutely awful... Doesnt know when to press and when to sit back and thats probably the reason why he concedes so many freekicks... Deeper in our own half he lacks the urgency to go and attack the ball more often than not and doesnt have the physical or mental strength to dominate ..

When we go forward, more often than not, he's too deep to have any sort of telling contribution in attacking terms... Hes no Alonso or Pirlo and his lack of passing range should mean that he comes closer to the attacking players to recieve the ball and give it back higher up the pitch... ATM what he does is receive it and either pass it to mascherano next to him or pass it back to the defenders giving the opposition the chance to shape up and stop our attacking moves...

Point is, hes useless.... AT BOTH ENDS !

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