Liverpool FC Forum

by **tubby** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:48 pm

bigmick wrote:He isn't good enough pure and simple. If you have average players you will get average results.

Not really. It helps if all your players are quality but Utd and Chelsea have average players.

What makes a good team is if the good players outnumber the average players. 2 or 3 average players in squad is fine but when there are so many average players as is with us that's where the problems lie.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 pm

Who do Chelsea and man Utd have Bav who is at an equal level in his position to Lucas who plays every week?

by **tubby** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:52 pm

bigmick wrote:Who do Chelsea and man Utd have Bav who is at an equal level in his position to Lucas who plays every week?

Utd id probably say Park or Fletcher. For Chelsea id say Kalou. Was going to say Obi Mikel but he a bit better I guess. Also they don't have to be equal in position but rather average when compared to the rest of their fellow squad members.

by **bigmick** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:00 am

bavlondon wrote:
bigmick wrote:Who do Chelsea and man Utd have Bav who is at an equal level in his position to Lucas who plays every week?

Utd id probably say Park or Fletcher. For Chelsea id say Kalou. Was going to say Obi Mikel but he a bit better I guess. Also they don't have to be equal in position but rather average when compared to the rest of their fellow squad members.

Bav I'm not going to be rude so suffice to say we have hugely different opinions not just on how good Lucas is, but also how good those players you've mentioned are. That's the only way I can explain the huge disparity in how we rate the players relative to each other.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:03 am

bigmick wrote:There are many reasons why we have been rubbish this season. some are more important than others, but there are many of them. One of the more important contributions to our "rubbishness" is the fact that Lucas has played every game. I'm sorry that people can't or won't see it, but he is simply not good enough to occupy a central midfield slot in a top team. It really is as simple as that.

He isn't a good enough defensive midfielder to be a defensive midfielder in a top team, he is currently proving that. He certainly isn't good enough to do whatever he was trying to do alongside Masherano (I couldn't work out exactly what it was at the time and I still can't). Heis a reasonable player, decent, a good squad member, tidy, gets his foot in, plays it simple, gives it his best, improving etc etc etc etc. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, he isn't good enough.

I'm sorry and I know many will disagree, but there it is. What is it now, 26 games in central midfield, 0 goals, 1 assist. In Boltons team or someone like that, fair enough. Not for Liverpool though, not in a million years.

Spot on Mick, although I personally think that if Lucas was just asked to do the holding role (as he was last night ) his deficiencies wouldn't be as obvious or irritating.

It's like with Kuyt, get an average player and ask them them to do more than they are capable of and they look out of their depth, ask them to concentrate on what they do best and sometimes an average player look pretty good.

If you ask Kuyt to be the creative spark for the team he would stink up the place, ask him just to work hard and get in the box as much as possible and he becomes a decent player.

Having said that, Lucas is obviously not in the same class as Masch but as a squad player I think he can be useful.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:13 am

bigmick wrote:I have no personal dislike for the lad Red, I've never met him but am fully prepared to believe he's a smashing fella. He's not a bad footballer either to be fair to him. He is being asked though to play central midfield in a team which has pretensions of winning the Premiership, that's the point. He quite simply isn't up to it.

Now as for him being 'one of the best players on the pitch" against Birmingham, we drew that game 2-2, at home, with two holding midfielders. Now Lucas didn't create anything (obviously), and given the fact that we conceded two goals at Home along with plenty of other chances he didn't perform his holding role particularly well either.

It's very strange at the moment. You're not allowed to criticise the manager who is doing a fantastic job apparently even though we're seventh, and you're also not allowed to point out deficiencies in the players, because they are all brilliant even though we are seventh. It's not about scapegoats, blame, personal dislikes or anything else. I'm simply offering up a reason as to why we aren't very good. having Lucas in central midfield is one of the reasons, although as I've already said there are others.

He isn't good enough pure and simple. If you have average players you will get average results.

Yet he was one of Liverpool's best performers on the night ,go figure

I find it amazing with all the reds obvious deficiencies this season that Lucas is held directly responsible ,the lad puts in a shift while others who have the ability in abundance cower in the face of adversity and deserve nothing but our contempt ,Riera a shameful excuse of a player to name but one

Michael you say yourself that Lucas doesnt have the ability to turn a game on its head and is limited I agree ,but others clearly do and for reasons best known to themselves have failed to tap into their reserves and raise their game ,yet these players regularly escape criticism with alarming ease .

I think that's why when the lad puts a shift in he merits a bit more respect ,and as for not being able to criticise the manager ,feel free fella everyone is entitled to their own opinion ,and I hope this post goes some small way to explaining why it is very much about scapegoats ,otherwise I wouldn't have felt the need to write this mate

by **bigmick** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:18 am

I'm not dispouting there are a number of reasons why we aren't getting results Red, I've said so a couple of times. If though you have a bloke in central midfield every game who isn't good enough, you will get results which aren't good enough.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:28 am

On the same note though Mick, if every player done the job they were expected to do then Lucas,s contribution might just become as valid and maybe less apparent

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:48 am

cant even fully remember the birmingham game it was that much of a bad result i have erased it.
But the villa game he was imo MOM, his passing was crisp and weighted well and also it was positive. He passed it to players in good areas of the pitch.
He was our best player and carried Aquilani.
He was harshly booked but didnt then shirk his responsibilities.
If he keeps that up then he wont let us down this season.
Its now down to his midfield partner to play as well.

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:52 am

Credit here credits due
He has been playing much better in recent games

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:37 pm

Hes depressing.

That vs Reading was a new low, theres no one in central midfield anymore, to demand the ball and pass it around.With Alonso we did, who controlled the tempo, passing, dictated the game centrally.

Without a top class passing midfieder, we have nosedived this season and are now playing HOOFBALL.. which gives dross teams (Reading today, previously, Fulham, Sunderland, Portsmouth) a chance as it becames a lottery. Back and forth, pinball, high balls into the box... because we no longer control the game in midfield. Theres no one to demand the ball off the defenders, put their foot on it... and ping it to an attacking player. No link, pivot in the center.

Lucas is a powder puff player who lost every single header, slow, hides in avoiding being open, and offers nothing on the ball. Gilberto Silva (former Arsenal clogger), Anderson (United benchwarmer)... and Elano (City reject), are all ahead of him internationally. What does he offer?? Zilch..

Played 26, 1 assist, 0 goals.... no passing range.

Lucas??, Kuyt??...in a Liverpool team?? We are Liverpool, not Blackburn or Bolton.

by **Greavesie** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:40 pm

Christ were you even watching the game or do you just spout the same old b0llocks everytime we don't win. We don't win and its Lucas' fault, we do and it's in spite of Lucas. Do me a fookin favour

by **JC_81** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:45 pm

Credit where it's due I thought Lucas was one of our better players tonight. In fact he actually looked a good player for the first 70 mins or so, before he started giving the ball away several times in a row towards the end of the game.

Insua was our worst player tonight, closely followed by Kuyt. Lucas was nowhere near one of the worst tonight.

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:05 pm

bigmick wrote:There are many reasons why we have been rubbish this season. some are more important than others, but there are many of them. One of the more important contributions to our "rubbishness" is the fact that Lucas has played every game. I'm sorry that people can't or won't see it, but he is simply not good enough to occupy a central midfield slot in a top team. It really is as simple as that.

He isn't a good enough defensive midfielder to be a defensive midfielder in a top team, he is currently proving that. He certainly isn't good enough to do whatever he was trying to do alongside Masherano (I couldn't work out exactly what it was at the time and I still can't). Heis a reasonable player, decent, a good squad member, tidy, gets his foot in, plays it simple, gives it his best, improving etc etc etc etc. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, he isn't good enough.

I'm sorry and I know many will disagree, but there it is. What is it now, 26 games in central midfield, 0 goals, 1 assist. In Boltons team or someone like that, fair enough. Not for Liverpool though, not in a million years.

Nail on head.

You cannot have a such a weak player in central midfield, and hope to get away with it, because its the most important position on the field where everything goes through it.

We have nosedived with this single change (lucas for Alonso) as we no longer have any control in midfield. If you cannot control midfield, the losses pile up...because if you cant keep the ball you will concede, and put the defence under pressure. Example... Lyon had 17 SHOTS at Anfield, this is unheard of from an away team at our place. We have no control in midfield

No one rates Lucas, the media, the pundits, fans, no one... and while i think hes a nice lad who doesnt cause trouble, his lack of talent means he merits no praise. Hes been booed by our home fans as recently as Christmas when he came on, Gerrard came out in November stating he is "DEVASTATED" Alonso (the man lucas has filled in for) is no longer at the club. Mascherano is another who is disilusioned, stating we couldnt let Alonso go.. and he has suffered by not having quality alongside him.

While its commendable that because lucas aint rated by anyone outside the club, some of our fans feel sorry for him..with a "hes sh*t, but hes our sh*t" type thing. However there cannot be any sentiment in football, you cant be loyal to failure...nor condone it.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:58 pm

Lucas - one of our players who can rightly hold his hand up and say "I did my best. I did my job. I played well for the team."

F*ck off the critics! If its on player who doesn't deserve it, it's this lad. This season so far at least. There's been about three players I can think of that's performed up to par, and Lucas is one.

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