Liverpool FC Forum

by **made in UK** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:26 pm

supersub wrote:
made in UK wrote:My grandad is Scouse and he said Lucas is average, so it must be true.

blind scouse...no meat just vegetative material

well, lets be fair even a blind man can see that Lucas is average.

by **made in UK** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:45 pm

Igor my new found friend.

If I may I'd just like to pick up on a point that Devaney kind of made. Both the superfans and the realists

would agree together on the issue that our owners are not what this great club needs nor wants.

The views between the superfans differ from the realists when it comes down to the players. We agree the squad and team needs heavy investment? I'm presuming you'd agree on that but I am unsure because players like Lucas are doing well in your opinion. If Lucas is the calibre of player we need massive investment in the team isn't needed. Lucas hardly broke the bank did he and, if your satisfied with players like that I don't see why you think investment is needed.

To put it another way if, you were Rafa and you were given 15o million to spend on the team and squad. What positions would you spend it on, back-up stirker? An alternative to Kuyt maybe someone who gives us more variety? You wouldn't obviously go out and buy a replacment for Lucas, a decent centr half or even a decent left back perhaps. Where would you improve the team mate. Because if your content with the likes of Insua, Skertel, Lucas, Kuyt and N';gog etc we wouldn't need the investment you want would we?

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:01 am

made in UK wrote:Igor my new found friend.

If I may I'd just like to pick up on a point that Devaney kind of made. Both the superfans and the realists would agree together on the issue that our owners are not what this great club needs nor wants.

The views between the superfans differ from the realists when it comes down to the players. We agree the squad and team needs heavy investment? I'm presuming you'd agree on that but I am unsure because players like Lucas are doing well in your opinion. If Lucas is the calibre of player we need massive investment in the team isn't needed. Lucas hardly broke the bank did he and, if your satisfied with players like that I don't see why you think investment is needed.

To put it another way if, you were Rafa and you were given 15o million to spend on the team and squad. What positions would you spend it on, back-up stirker? An alternative to Kuyt maybe someone who gives us more variety? You wouldn't obviously go out and buy a replacment for Lucas, a decent centr half or even a decent left back perhaps. Where would you improve the team mate. Because if your content with the likes of Insua, Skertel, Lucas, Kuyt and N';gog etc we wouldn't need the investment you want would we?

Tell me lash where have i said that Lucas n'gog kuyt insua and skrtle cannot be improved upon . Squad's always need improving and the last pre-season was the time to invest heavely in our squad for the final push . It didn't happen so we are left with what we have . Now i'm being called a superfan for supporting the players we have and calling a spade a spade ,these players mentioned are doing a fine job under the circumstances . In an ideal world ,the likes of N'gog and insua would not have played the amount of games they have so far ,they would be squad players . I've also said that once Aqualani is fit , Lucas will be the one to make way and rightly so .So Rafa will then be able to play a more attacking line up .

Why can't it be that ,these lads mentioned can't be praised for what there doing , why slag them off when it's clear to Maradona ,dunga, Van gaal and domenec that they are good enough for there national sides ,but they can't have a good game for LFC . The majority of the lads mentioned are squad players being forced to play because of circumstance and doing a feckin good job at that . They will be much better players for it .

For instance , in future when we have a fully fit squad (hopefully ) and a player gets injured during a game ,say mascherano for instance .We won't have half the trepedation we did last year if rafa has to bring Lucas on ,because we know and more importantly rafa know's he will do a job and will not weaken the team . The same for N'gog and whomever else you mention (not vorinin).

You say your a realist ,well look at the facts and look at what these lads have been thrown into and then look at there ages and then make your judgement .

The point i'm making about Devaney ,is this . If he and the rest of the realist's put as much passion into critisising the owners as they do the management and team ,we would be winning this battle against them hands down .

Supporter mate ,that's all .Not a superfan .

by **made in UK** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:41 am

Hey Igor the 'superfan and realist' comments were tongue in cheek when I said them to you (relax mate).

You say your a realist ,well look at the facts and look at what these lads have been thrown into and then look at there ages and then make your judgement .

Michael Owen, Gerrard etc were young and we're thrown in. If your good enough, age is pretty much irrelavent in my book. The names mentioned are young but their ability doesn't compensate for their greeness IMO.

If he and the rest of the realist's put as much passion into critisising the owners as they do the management and team ,we would be winning this battle against them hands down .

Being a "realist" and ever so slightly pessimist I don't believe that statement. The only people to change things at the club are the Yanks themselves. They won't be forced out no matter how much pressure is put on them and numbers of supporters back it up (Unions died years ago). They'll leave under their own term. It is admirable what SOS and the fans believe, say and do, but for me its like pi$$ing in the wind in all honesty.

Cue 'No true fan would say that' :cool:

by **kazza** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:37 am

Owen and Gerrard were not "good enough", they were world class (gerrard is still our best player). Much easier to throw in youngsters that are world class. As for the etc...

Comparing them to Kuyte and Lucas is unfair.

by **made in UK** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:46 am

Comparing them to Kuyte and Lucas is unfair.

Why their all footballers :laugh:

by **kazza** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:55 am

Footballers yes, but they were best in a generation type players and how many of them come along. What makes them special is that they are rare.

by **shanklygates** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:24 am

how do you define 'superfan'?

i've supported liverpool for over 30 years, does that make any less of a fan?

i dont like certain players at liverpool or the manager, but i'll support my beloved reds till the day i die.

managers and players come and go...i don't

by **kazza** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:53 am

Odds are you probably will one day (may it be many years in the future)

by **kazza** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:05 am

No such thing as "superfan". There is only supporter. You either support the team or not. Included in the team are the manager, players and coaching staff, because that is what it is to be a team.

A team is one unit, untill the player or manager leaves he will be a part of that unit and worthy of support. Exceptions are made for those players or managers that do not work for that unit.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:05 am

shanklygates wrote:how do you define 'superfan'?

i've supported liverpool for over 30 years, does that make any less of a fan?

i dont like certain players at liverpool or the manager, but i'll support my beloved reds till the day i die.

managers and players come and go...i don't

As I understand it the term "Superfan" was coined (not by me I've never used it I don't think) in response to those who repeatedly question whether or not other people are "real fans" or not.

For some reason, if you think we've got some excellent players and a good team, and therefore should be able to make a decent challenge for honours you aren't a "real fan" according to some. If on the other hand you think it's perfectly acceptable to never win anything, and totally unrealistic to hope to finish above big four rivals, as long as you "believe" and "have faith" and stuff, your "real fan" credentials are beyond question. I must confess i've always considered it a bit of a contradiction that the very same people who tell you to "believe" will then slag you off for believing that we've got a right to dream of winning trophies, but there you go.

If you think the manager is nearing the point where his time might concieveably be up, even possibly just a fraction, you are actually a wind up merchant who supports Man Utd.

The truth is, everyone has different opinions about everything, but some people get very uncomfortable if you disagree with them. I really like Aurelio as a player, it doesn't overly concern me if other people don't rate him. I don't rate Benayoun as much as some, nor Kuyt but I do still think Carragher is the best centre half we've got. I do think this seasons effort has been extremely poor and that the manager is culpable, but I don't dispute that people are entitled to disagree. It doesn't overly bother me either way, I'm sure they are as much a "real fan" as me at least and probably more in many cases, I wouldn't presume to make pronouncements on other peoples motivations for supporting the football club, whatever their views.

Sometimes of course concensus dictates that it's Ok to slag somebody or something off without your "real fanness" being questioned. You can slag Babel all you like for instance and it's Ok by all accounts. Slag Dossena though and you are on dodgier ground. Slag the owners or "fecking Parry" off and you get a badge of merit, the manager or Purslow and it's different.

One day people might just accept that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They might debate it but ultimately be prepared to accept that not everyone loves the manager quite as much as they do, or Aurelio, or Carragher. It might happen one day but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

by **Ben Patrick** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:52 am

bigmick wrote:If you think the manager is nearing the point where his time might concieveably be up, even possibly just a fraction, you are actually a wind up merchant who supports Man Utd.

this part made me laugh :laugh:

by **made in UK** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:58 am

kazza wrote:Footballers yes, but they were best in a generation type players and how many of them come along. What makes them special is that they are rare.

As true as that statement is you've helped me prove my point. What do you think the greater chance of happening is, in each of these scenarios.

1: Hoping a gem or two ala Fowler, Owen or Gerrard coming through the youth ranks and playing top flight football.

or

2: Searching the entire globe for possible gems who will play top flight football.

Which of the two scenarios would in all probability be more likely to to pay dividends for a football club?

wait for adequate youth to appear through the academy or search the globe for adequate talent. (I couldn't spell it out more if I tried)

As for not being able to compare a young Lucas to a young Gerrard because its "unfair" is quite honestly pathetic. Gerrard is the standard, the bar of players Rafa should be looking for in youth. I know it is impossible to bring in world class youth in the mould of Gerrard every summer. But Lucas? The two are on different footballing planets, Rafa could look a bit closer to the Exosphere instead of Troposhere for new talent.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:23 pm

made in UK wrote:Rafa could look a bit closer to the Exosphere instead of Troposhere for new talent.

An im prepared to let him see if he does that. Hes only been in charge of the overall setup since he signed his new contract, hes gott a more hands on role now with the academy an the youth than before , No one was coming through an maybe thats what concernrd him, Maybe that why he wanted contol, bring them all back to Melwood instead of them being in Kirkby .

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:51 pm

I know Lucas is not what we originally hoped for (Kaka with a tackle), but I think he is a decent player who if Masch does go might still develop into a good player alongside Aquilani. That doesn't mean I think he is better than Masch or that he is ever going to be as good as Gerrard, but that he might be good enough for the first team if we have the right quality creative player beside him.

I think he has improved this season, and while I AGREE he needs to cut down on the silly freeckicks and be a little more expansive with his passing, he puts his foot in, shows determination, and is a hardworking player who has shown good character, putting up with boo's and groans etc and still performed.

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