Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:28 pm

That's a ridiculous statement. The Manc's had Ronaldo, another world class player in the making already in place; why then if you are using it to assess the situation Rafa faced at the time, would you remove him from your assessment? The same goes for Van Nistelrooy, Keane, Heinze and Saha. They also signed Rooney in the summer of 2004, a signing made possible by the fact they were minted, whereas Rafa had just inherited our record signing in Cisse and had his best striker in Owen, declare his intentions to leave.

by **fivecups** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:53 pm

LFC2007 wrote:That's a ridiculous statement. The Manc's had Ronaldo, another world class player in the making already in place; why then if you are using it to assess the situation Rafa faced at the time, would you remove him from your assessment? The same goes for Van Nistelrooy, Keane, Heinze and Saha. They also signed Rooney in the summer of 2004, a signing made possible by the fact they were minted, whereas Rafa had just inherited our record signing in Cisse and had his best striker in Owen, declare his intentions to leave.

I suppose it fits best with net spend.

A common discussion on here goes:

- We've spent more money under Rafa than United or Arsenal.

Someone else then says:

- We'll the other teams had most of their players in place before Rafa came so of course they've spent less.

It's useful from that point of view.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:00 pm

I know, but you've omitted those who are no longer at top four clubs, as well as those who've moved abroad or who are retired. If your aim is to provide a fair assessment of the teams at a particular point in time, why not just provide the complete list?

by **fivecups** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:10 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I know, but you've omitted those who are no longer at top four clubs, as well as those who've moved abroad or who are retired. If your aim is to provide a fair assessment of the teams at a particular point in time, why not just provide the complete list?

I think that's in this thread somewhere, I was planning to bring it forward like some of the other more useful posts (they're interspersed with pages of classic Gybs/LegBarnes). Players who have left clubs are already accounted for in net spend (accepting that some of them will have left for nothing and others for massive amounts).

As always theres no one parameter that tells the whole story, but it's useful to put some agreed lists/numbers together to help the debate.

by **fivecups** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:35 pm

fivecups wrote:I've listed what I think are players Rafa sold who were Houllliers. The total for them is £43,750,00 (done in my head).

1. Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
2. Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
3. El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
4. Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
5. Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
6. Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
7. Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
8. Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
9. Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
10. Darren Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
11. Stephen Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
12. Florent S.-Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva£2,700,000 04.05.2007
13. Danny O' Donnell Crewe £100,000 13.06.2007
14. Djibril Cissé Marseille £6,000,000 09.07.2007
15. John Arne Riise AS Roma £4,000,000 01.07.2008
16. Anthony Le Tallec Le Mans Undisclosed 02.07.2008

Total: £43,750,000

From lfchistory.net

by **fivecups** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:37 pm

s@int wrote:TRANSFERS

Year ending 1999

£32.2m Gross Expenditure
£6.8m Gross Income
£25.4m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2000

£20.1m Gross Expenditure
£5m Gross Income
£15.1m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2001

£20.5m Gross Expenditure
£13.7m Gross Income
£6.7m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2002

£38.8m Gross Expenditure
£15.4m Gross Income
£23.4m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2003

£16.9m Gross Expenditure
£4.7m Gross Income
£12.2m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2004

£19.2m Gross Expenditure
£2.3m Gross Income
£16.9m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2005

£46.1m Gross Expenditure
£13.2m Gross Income
£32.9m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2006

£41.7m Gross Expenditure
£16.8m Gross Income
£24.9m Net Expenditure

Year ending 2007

£70.0m Gross Expenditure
£26.0m Gross Income
£44.0m Net Expenditure

Total between 1st August 1999 and 31st July 2007

£305.4m Gross Expenditure
£103.9m Gross Income
£201.5m Net Expenditure

Between 1st August 2004 and 31st July 2007 LFCs transfer dealings were

£157.8m Gross expenditure
£55.9m gross income
£101.9m net expenditure

Since then can only be an estimate given some of the unknowns (Mascherano, Riera and Keane fees).

Figures ripped from RAWK supplied by TTNBD (He uses actual Liverpool accounts to obtain information)

From ttnbd via S@int. May be updatable now by a year.

by **fivecups** » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:14 pm

red187 wrote:Ok so I thought the best way to illustrate my point would be to show the squad Rafa inherited and his current one, the arguement is that Rafa has wasted the money given to him, I sorry but looking at the squad lists, man for man it is a better squad than the one that was left when Rafa took over. Net and gross spend figures don't reflect the main issue, we are in a better position than five years ago.

GOALKEEPERS

JERZY DUDEK PEPE REINA
CHRIS KIRKLAND DIEGO CAVALIERI
PATRICE LUZI PETER GULACSI

DEFENDERS

SAMI HYYPIA DANIEL AGGER
STEPHANE HENCHOZ MARTIN SKRTEL
JAMIE CARRAGHER JAMIE CARRAGHER
STEVE FINNAN GLEN JOHNSON
JOHN ARNE RIISE FABIO AURELIO
DJIMI TRAORE EMILIANO INSUA
ALOU DIARRA SOTIRIOS KYRGIAKOS
JOHN WELSH PHILLIP DEGEN
JON OTSEMBOR ANDREA DOSSENA
ZAK WHITBREAD MARTIN KELLY
DANIEL AYALA

MIDFIELDERS

STEVEN GERRARD STEVEN GERRARD
HARRY KEWELL ALBERT RIERA
DIETMAR HAMANN ALBERTO AQUILANI
DANNY MURPHY YOSSI BENAYOUN
VLADIMIR SMICER JAVIER MACHERANO
SALIF DIAO RYAN BABEL
IGOR BISCAN LUCAS LEIVA
RICHIE PARTRIDGE DAVID AMOO
BRUNO CHEYROU JAY SPEARING
DARREN POTTER DAMIEN PLESSIS
MICHAEL FOLEY-SHERIDAN NABIL EL ZHAR
DANIEL SJOLUND

ATTACKERS

MICHAEL OWEN FERNANDO TORRES
EL HADJI DIOUF DIRK KUYT
MILAN BAROS DAVID NGOG
ANTHONY LE TALLEC ANDRIY VORONIN
FLORENT SINAMA PONGOLLE KRISTIAN NEMETH
NATHAN ECCLESTON

Pick the best eleven from both squads and I think anyone here would be hard pressed to make a case for the 2004/05 team beating the 2008/09 team on a regular basis.
Lets suppose for a second we could take five years of the 2004/05 squad apart from the players still in the squad how many would make it into our first team. As I see it depending on formation maybe Owen Riise and Smicer on a good day.

Edited slightly to update:

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:04 am

LFC2007 wrote:
made in UK wrote:Then without a source your pie in the sky statement is bollox really. Considering this thread has many posters who find statements from all over the web that do not correlate with one anothers about our 'net spend'. It would be appropriate to find out whether your source (and that is of course if you had one) is/was reliable about our wages, obviously not though.

'Passing fan' thats a bit rich coming from LFC2007

You clearly haven't understood my post, so i'll simplify.

If you think the argument that Chelsea's ability to spend more on wages than ourselves can only have put us at a disadvantage in the transfer market amounts to 'pie in the sky', you must be a complete f'ucking tool.

Cue the thought police.

by **Penguins** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:17 am

fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:That's a ridiculous statement. The Manc's had Ronaldo, another world class player in the making already in place; why then if you are using it to assess the situation Rafa faced at the time, would you remove him from your assessment? The same goes for Van Nistelrooy, Keane, Heinze and Saha. They also signed Rooney in the summer of 2004, a signing made possible by the fact they were minted, whereas Rafa had just inherited our record signing in Cisse and had his best striker in Owen, declare his intentions to leave.

I suppose it fits best with net spend.

A common discussion on here goes:

- We've spent more money under Rafa than United or Arsenal.

Someone else then says:

- We'll the other teams had most of their players in place before Rafa came so of course they've spent less.

It's useful from that point of view.

But the thing is, wheater you like it or not, those other clubs had squads that could fight for the league title there and then.

Everyone with a brain could see that we weren't close to challenging. That meant that players like Hamann, Hyppia, Finnan etc was not going to be part in a title winning team as they were all around 30.

Who cares what are left now from the teams then?
Look at the players that was there at the other clubs instead!

Manure had Nistelrooy, Keane, Heinze, Saha etc, arsenal had Henry, Viera etc and we had Traore, Diao, Diouf etc.

Our rivals never needed complete overhaul of their teams to be challenging, except chelski who spent hundreds of millions. 1 or 2 players each season to improve on a challenging squad was all they needed.

We were not in such a position where most of the squad was
of that caliber.

Even comparing that team 2004 to todays team is laughable

by **LFC2007** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:35 am

fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I know, but you've omitted those who are no longer at top four clubs, as well as those who've moved abroad or who are retired. If your aim is to provide a fair assessment of the teams at a particular point in time, why not just provide the complete list?

I think that's in this thread somewhere, I was planning to bring it forward like some of the other more useful posts (they're interspersed with pages of classic Gybs/LegBarnes). Players who have left clubs are already accounted for in net spend (accepting that some of them will have left for nothing and others for massive amounts).

As always theres no one parameter that tells the whole story, but it's useful to put some agreed lists/numbers together to help the debate.

Cheers mate - I couldn't work out what use the list would have in conjunction with net spend figures. Anyway, I've sussed why I couldn't and it's because it doesn't make for an accurate comparison between the clubs.

The sale of Ronaldo reduces the net spend figure of the Manc's by £80m , yet he isn't included in the list of Man U players who were already in place upon Rafa's arrival. If that £80m is to be used in the overall net spend comparisons, then so should the fact that he was an asset that was already in place prior to Rafa's arrival, because that fact demonstrates that it was far from a level playing field when Rafa arrived. His subsequent influence in their successes proves this.

Looking at it chronologically avoids such distortions.

by **fivecups** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:38 pm

The premier league will now publish agents fees yearly after November 30th.

This is from October 2008 to September 2009:

List of payments made by to agents:

1. Manchester City £12,874,283m
2. Chelsea £9,562,223m
3. Liverpool £6,657,305m
4. Tottenham £6,066,935m
5. West Ham £3,576,972m
6. Arsenal £4,760,241m
7. Wigan £5,527,548m
8. Portsmouth £3,184,725m
9. Bolton £3,166,611m
10. Everton £2,008,407m
11. Sunderland £2,007,040m
12. Aston Villa £1,708,374m
13. Blackburn £1,610,885m
14. Hull £1,599,188m
15. Manchester United £1,517,393m
16. Fulham £1,469,258m
17. Wolves £1,235,703m
18. Birmingham £974,982
19. Stoke £716,042
20. Burnley £468,398

by **fivecups** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:52 pm

Wage costs have been shown to correlate more accurately with success than overall transfer spending. This is from the Deloitte ARFF for 2007/2008

Table 3.1: League table based on total wage costs in 2007/08 Premier League clubs

Team/ Wage rank/ League position/ Wage costs/ %increase
Chelsea 1 2 £172,096 30%
Manchester U 2 1 £121,080 31%
Arsenal 3 3 £101,302 13%
Liverpool 4 4 £90,438 17%
Newcastle United 5 12 £74,562 31%
PL average 5.5 10.5 £59,800 23%
Portsmouth 6 8 £54,680 48%
Manchester City 7 9 £54,222 49%
Tottenham Hot 8 11 £52,921 21%
Aston Villa 9 6 £50,447 17%
Everton 10 5 £44,480 16%
Blackburn Rovers 11 7 £39,661 8%
Fulham 12 17 £39,344 12%
Bolton Wanderers 13 16 £39,033 27%
Wigan Athletic 14 14 £38,351 40%
Sunderland 15 15 £37,091 56%
Middlesbrough 16 13 £34,761 (9%)
Reading 17 18 £33,123 11%
Birmingham City 18 19 £26,624 27%
Derby County 19 20 £26,109 51%

by **fivecups** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:09 pm

Average attendance 2008/9

1 Manchester Utd. 75,690
2 Borussia Dortmund 74,830
3 Real Madrid 71,960
4 Barcelona 71,300
5 Bayern Munich 69,000
6 Schalke 04 61,385
7 Arsenal 60,040
8 AC Milan 59,730
9 Celtic 57,670
10 Internazionale 55,345
11 Hamburg SV 54,775
12 Olympique Marseille 52,275
13 Hertha BSC 52,155
14 VfB Stuttgart 51,925
15 Rangers 49,535
16 FC Koln 49,310
17 Ajax 49,015
18 Newcastle Utd. 48,750
19 Borussia Munchengladbach 47,375
20 Eintracht Frankfurt 47,010
21 Atletico de Madrid 44,605
22 Feyenoord 44,015
23 Liverpool 43,610
24 Manchester City 42,900
25 Hannover 96 41,860
26 Chelsea 41,590

1 Manchester Utd. 75,690
2 Arsenal 60,040
3 Newcastle Utd. 48,750
4 Liverpool 43,610

by **maguskwt** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:04 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I know, but you've omitted those who are no longer at top four clubs, as well as those who've moved abroad or who are retired. If your aim is to provide a fair assessment of the teams at a particular point in time, why not just provide the complete list?

I think that's in this thread somewhere, I was planning to bring it forward like some of the other more useful posts (they're interspersed with pages of classic Gybs/LegBarnes). Players who have left clubs are already accounted for in net spend (accepting that some of them will have left for nothing and others for massive amounts).

As always theres no one parameter that tells the whole story, but it's useful to put some agreed lists/numbers together to help the debate.

Cheers mate - I couldn't work out what use the list would have in conjunction with net spend figures. Anyway, I've sussed why I couldn't and it's because it doesn't make for an accurate comparison between the clubs.

The sale of Ronaldo reduces the net spend figure of the Manc's by £80m , yet he isn't included in the list of Man U players who were already in place upon Rafa's arrival. If that £80m is to be used in the overall net spend comparisons, then so should the fact that he was an asset that was already in place prior to Rafa's arrival, because that fact demonstrates that it was far from a level playing field when Rafa arrived. His subsequent influence in their successes proves this.

Looking at it chronologically avoids such distortions.

completely agree mate...

by **fivecups** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:55 pm

Deloittes annual update. Obviously this is just revenue and makes no mention of club debt however it does show how much Liverpool needs to improve matchday income. We loose over £60 million to United every year because of their superior stadium and corporate setup.

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